Kurios / Theos

[Sabian]

HT:
You must be reading someone elses post. I never stated this.


If it is the short form Why is it the short form?
What is missing?

 

[Sabian]

This would also be a short form right Y'shua

So with this short form I can say the short form of the FATHER's name is Y'.

That all I should have to type is Y'. Because it's just the short form of YH. or YAH.
I think not eather it contains the FATHER's name or it does not . Again I do not see the FATHER's name in YESHUA.

 

[Higher Truth]

Want to impress me? Quote something from B Hebrew or B Greek forums where many of the real scholars hang out. I have read all of this sacred name stuff years ago. The real scholars always have a good time tearing this stuff apart. Do the research.

 

[Sabian]

Biblical Archaeology Review

August 1985

HOW WAS THE TETRAGRAMMATON PROUNOUNCED?

To the Editor:
An editorial note in BAR, November/December 1984, states that the pronunciation Yahweh for the Tetragrammaton is “by scholarly convention.” It should be noted that there are many strong linguistic and epigraphic arguments in favor of Yahweh as the correct form. There are Greek transcriptions from religious papyri in Egypt; there are personal names in Biblical Hebrew ending in –yahu, which is the typical “short form” (jussive, i.e., commands, and past tense) for verb forms of the particular type in which the last two consonants were originally waw (w) and yod (y). The “long form” of those same verbs ends in –eh</B>. The Anglicized form, Jehovah, is a “ghost word” based on the four consonants, YHWH, with the vowels of another word, adonai, meaning, “my Lord.” The Hebrew scribes of the Middle Ages put those vowels in to remind the reader to say adonai rather than pronounce the sacred Name. But the first syllable, they nevertheless put in e rather than an a so as not to cause anyone to see the syllable ya- and inadvertently blurt out the sacred Name! This is just further proof of the correct first syllable, which in any case is confirmed by Greek spellings and the evidence of Hebrew linguistics. So Yahweh is not just some sort of “scholarly convention.”

Professor Anson F. Rainey
Tel Aviv University
Tel Aviv, Israel





HOW YAHWEH WAS PRONOUNCED

Ya done it again! In a footnote to J. Glen Taylor’s article (May/June 1994, p. 53), you say:

“No one knows how YHWH was pronounced, but it is usually vocalized as Yahweh.”

This, despite the fact that you had published my letter, “How was the Tetragrammaton Pronounced?” (July/August 1985, pp. 78-79), in which I gave the epigraphic and linguistic evidence in support of the pronunciation “Yahweh” (I’m still getting correspondence from all over the world in response to that letter).

First, I mentioned the evidence from Greek transcriptions in religious papyri found in Egypt. The best of these is Iaoouee (London Papyri, xlvi, 446-482). Clement of Alexandria said: “The mystic name which is called the tetragrammaton…is pronoun-ced Iaoue, which means ‘Who is, and who shall be.’”

The internal evidence from the Hebrew language is equally strong and confirms the accuracy of the Greek transcriptions. Yahweh is from a verbal root * hwy* “to be.” This root usually shows up in Hebrew as * hyy. It is a verbal root developed from the third person pronoun, *huwal* hiya. The grammatical form of Yahweh is the third person masculine singular of prefix conjugation. The ya- is the third person masculine singular prefix.

In Jewish tradition, it is forbidden to pronounce the Sacred Name and its true pronunciation is supposed to remain a secret. The fact is that Jewish tridents (who put the vowel points in the Hebrew text) borrowed the vowels from another word, eitheradonai “my lord(s),” or elohim “God.” They avoided the very short a vowel in this borrowing because it might have led the synagogue reader to make a mistake and pronounce the correct first syllable of the Sacred Name, namely –ya. The vocalized form one finds in the Hebrew Bible is usually Yehowah, from which we get in English the form Jehovah. Yehowah/Jehovah is nothing but an artificial ghost word: it was never used in antiquity. The synagogue reader saw Yehowah in his text and read it adonai.

The final syllable of Yahweh, -eh is normal for the imperfect indicative form (present-future or past continuous). A form like yahweh developed from *yahwiyu. This development of –iyu to eh is thoroughly demonstrated for the verbal system in general. The form yahweh seems to be from the causative stem (hif’il), and apparently means “He causes to become/be.”

The theophoric component on so many personal names in Judah (i.e., -yahu, in such names as Hizqiyahu [Hezekiah]) is the normal shortened form of a verb like yahweh. For example, the verb “to do obeisance” in the imperfect is yistah’we, while the shortened form (for preterit or jussive) is yistahu. In other words yistahu is to yistah’we asyahu is to yahweh. This is not hocus-pocus. Any layman can readily comprehend the equation.

You don’t like to put linguistic details in BAR. They’re “too technical.” But this does not prevent you from printing various items of linguistic misinformation without warning your readership. Here I refer to the description of the final component (not a suffix but a component!) on personal names found in seal impressions from Dan (March/April 1994, pp. 28, 30). The theophoric component in Northern Israelite personal names, written –YW on epigraphic texts, was never pronounced -yo! The final W did not come into use as a marker for a final o vowel until the post-Exilic period. In the eighth and seventh centuries when we have these personal names ending in –YW, the W was a consonant and the pronunciation was –yaw (or yau). So anyone can see that the difference between northern –yaw and southern –yahu is not so great, especially since the –h- in the southern form was fairly weak.

Israeli archaeologists avoid Hebrew linguistics like it was poison ivy. Thus, on the basis of modern pronunciation, without asking any linguist, they have created ghost words like Immadiyo, zkryo or Gaddiyo (in the Samaria Ostraca) in your Dan article cited above. The –W in those names should be pronounced like the –W in words like raglaw “his (two) feet” (written rglyw), cf. Genesis 24:32 et passim. Israelis, of course, pronounce that form raglav because of the European background of many “revivers” of modern Hebrew. Incidently, that same European background is where we get the V in Jehovah instead of the original W.

Obviously, my letter in 1985 did not impress you. But the evidence for Yahweh as the correct pronunciation for the Sacred Name is at least as strong as the view that Sennacherib destroyed Lachish Stratum III. The same can be said for the pronunciation –yaw and not –yo. At least you should ask a scholar whose opinion you do appreciate, such as Frank Cross or Joseph Naveh or Andre Lemaire.

Speaking of Lemaire, I heartily endorse his new reading of bytdwd, “House of David” on the Mesha stele (“’House of David’ Restored in Moabite Inscription,” May/June 1994). Furthermore, I have a gut feeling that both the Mesha and the Dan inscriptions have to do with events in 853-851 B.C.E., namely the battle in which Ahab, king of Israel, died while his ally Jehoshaphat, escaped unharmed, and the later invasion of Moab. I think the king of Damascus (not a vassal of his – as pointed out recently by S. Ahituv in the Israel Exploration Journal) set up the stele in Dan to commemorate that victory. Likewise, the closing lines of the Mesha stele probably have to do with the invasion of Moab by Jehoshaphat and Ahab’s son Joram, as depicted in 2 Kings 3. Many scholars deny that Ahab died a violent death or that Jehoshaphat -------------------------- all the arguments for over 20 years. I am convinced that those negative arguments are specious and that the Biblical testimony to both events is reliable, historically and chronologically. One may refer to maps 126 through 130 in the new revision of The Macmillan Bible Atlas.

Anson F. Rainey
Professor of Ancient Near Eastern Cultures and Semitic Linguistics
Tel Aviv University

 

[Sabian]

Titles and substitutes--the largest number of those who worship Names: use god, lord, master/baal, Jesus, Christ. In reference to the last name jesus(unknown origin-has no etymology in greek) christ(is a translation of annointed from hebrew to greek) I see none who use Immanuel/Emmanuel is this because of its Hebrew origin. There is no doubt about how Immanuel is pronounced.

There is much disagreement on the pronunciation of Jesus as there was no "J" in the alphabet or a hard "J" sound in the english language(hard "JAH" came from germanic language) before the 1600's. The spanish language best preserves the greek Iesous as "hey`sous". Where is the "J" sound?

Yet the greek records found in Egypt do preserve the pronunciation of "YAHWEH".

Letters to the Editor of (BAR)Biblical Archaeology Review carried the following letter:
HOW YAHWEH WAS PRONOUNCED

Ya done it again! In a footnote to J. Glen Taylor’s article (May/June 1994, p. 53), you say:

“No one knows how YHWH was pronounced, but it is usually vocalized as Yahweh.”

This, despite the fact that you had published my letter, “How was the Tetragrammaton Pronounced?” (July/August 1985, pp. 78-79), in which I gave the epigraphic and linguistic evidence in support of the pronunciation “Yahweh” (I’m still getting correspondence from all over the world in response to that letter).

First, I mentioned the evidence from Greek transcriptions in religious papyri found in Egypt. The best of these is Iaoouee (London Papyri, xlvi, 446-482). Clement of Alexandria said: “The mystic name which is called the tetragrammaton…is pronoun-ced Iaoue, which means ‘Who is, and who shall be.’”

The internal evidence from the Hebrew language is equally strong and confirms the accuracy of the Greek transcriptions. Yahweh is from a verbal root * hwy* “to be.” This root usually shows up in Hebrew as * hyy. It is a verbal root developed from the third person pronoun, *huwal* hiya. The grammatical form of Yahweh is the third person masculine singular of prefix conjugation. The ya- is the third person masculine singular prefix.

In Jewish tradition, it is forbidden to pronounce the Sacred Name and its true pronunciation is supposed to remain a secret. The fact is that Jewish tridents (who put the vowel points in the Hebrew text) borrowed the vowels from another word, either adonai “my lord(s),” or elohim “God.” They avoided the very short a vowel in this borrowing because it might have led the synagogue reader to make a mistake and pronounce the correct first syllable of the Sacred Name, namely –ya. The vocalized form one finds in the Hebrew Bible is usually Yehowah, from which we get in English the form Jehovah. Yehowah/Jehovah is nothing but an artificial ghost word: it was never used in antiquity. The synagogue reader saw Yehowah in his text and read it adonai.

The final syllable of Yahweh, -eh is normal for the imperfect indicative form (present-future or past continuous). A form like yahweh developed from *yahwiyu. This development of –iyu to eh is thoroughly demonstrated for the verbal system in general. The form yahweh seems to be from the causative stem (hif’il), and apparently means “He causes to become/be.”

The theophoric component on so many personal names in Judah (i.e., -yahu, in such names as Hizqiyahu [Hezekiah]) is the normal shortened form of a verb like yahweh. For example, the verb “to do obeisance” in the imperfect is yistah’we, while the shortened form (for preterit or jussive) is yistahu. In other words yistahu is to yistah’we as yahu is to yahweh. This is not hocus-pocus. Any layman can readily comprehend the equation.

You don’t like to put linguistic details in BAR. They’re “too technical.” But this does not prevent you from printing various items of linguistic misinformation without warning your readership. Here I refer to the description of the final component (not a suffix but a component!) on personal names found in seal impressions from Dan (March/April 1994, pp. 28, 30). The theophoric component in Northern Israelite personal names, written –YW on epigraphic texts, was never pronounced –yo! The final W did not come into use as a marker for a final o vowel until the post-Exilic period. In the eighth and seventh centuries when we have these personal names ending in –YW, the W was a consonant and the pronunciation was –yaw (or yau). So anyone can see that the difference between northern –yaw and southern –yahu is not so great, especially since the –h- in the southern form was fairly weak.

Israeli archaeologists avoid Hebrew linguistics like it was poison ivy. Thus, on the basis of modern pronunciation, without asking any linguist, they have created ghost words like Immadiyo, zkryo or Gaddiyo (in the Samaria Ostraca) in your Dan article cited above. The –W in those names should be pronounced like the –W in words like raglaw “his (two) feet” (written rglyw), cf. Genesis 24:32 et passim. Israelis, of course, pronounce that form raglav because of the European background of many “revivers” of modern Hebrew. Incidently, that same European background is where we get the V in Jehovah instead of the original W.

Obviously, my letter in 1985 did not impress you. But the evidence for Yahweh as the correct pronunciation for the Sacred Name is at least as strong as the view that Sennacherib destroyed Lachish Stratum III. The same can be said for the pronunciation –yaw and not –yo. At least you should ask a scholar whose opinion you do appreciate, such as Frank Cross or Joseph Naveh or Andre Lemaire.

Speaking of Lemaire, I heartily endorse his new reading of bytdwd, “House of David” on the Mesha stele (“’House of David’ Restored in Moabite Inscription,” May/June 1994). Furthermore, I have a gut feeling that both the Mesha and the Dan inscriptions have to do with events in 853-851 B.C.E., namely the battle in which Ahab, king of Israel, died while his ally Jehoshaphat, escaped unharmed, and the later invasion of Moab. I think the king of Damascus (not a vassal of his – as pointed out recently by S. Ahituv in the Israel Exploration Journal) set up the stele in Dan to commemorate that victory. Likewise, the closing lines of the Mesha stele probably have to do with the invasion of Moab by Jehoshaphat and Ahab’s son Joram, as depicted in 2 Kings 3. Many scholars deny that Ahab died a violent death or that Jehoshaphat -------------------------- all the arguments for over 20 years. I am convinced that those negative arguments are specious and that the Biblical testimony to both events is reliable, historically and chronologically. One may refer to maps 126 through 130 in the new revision of The Macmillan Bible Atlas.

Anson F. Rainey
Professor of Ancient Near Eastern Cultures and Semitic Linguistics
Tel Aviv University
........

 

[Sabian]

Biblical Archaeology Review

August 1985

HOW WAS THE TETRAGRAMMATON PROUNOUNCED?

To the Editor:
An editorial note in BAR, November/December 1984, states that the pronunciation Yahweh for the Tetragrammaton is “by scholarly convention.” It should be noted that there are many strong linguistic and epigraphic arguments in favor of Yahweh as the correct form. There are Greek transcriptions from religious papyri in Egypt; there are personal names in Biblical Hebrew ending in –yahu, which is the typical “short form” (jussive, i.e., commands, and past tense) for verb forms of the particular type in which the last two consonants were originally waw (w) and yod (y). The “long form” of those same verbs ends in –eh</B>. The Anglicized form, Jehovah, is a “ghost word” based on the four consonants, YHWH, with the vowels of another word, adonai, meaning, “my Lord.” The Hebrew scribes of the Middle Ages put those vowels in to remind the reader to say adonai rather than pronounce the sacred Name. But the first syllable, they nevertheless put in e rather than an a so as not to cause anyone to see the syllable ya- and inadvertently blurt out the sacred Name! This is just further proof of the correct first syllable, which in any case is confirmed by Greek spellings and the evidence of Hebrew linguistics. So Yahweh is not just some sort of “scholarly convention.”

Professor Anson F. Rainey
Tel Aviv University
Tel Aviv, Israel

 

[Higher Truth]

quote:

in reference to the last name jesus(unknown origin-has no etymology in greek)


In case you missed it the first time, this is the etymology from Hebrew to Greek:

Yeshua (short form) or Yehoshua (long form)--Hebrew Joshua--comes across into Greek as Iesous. Greek has no consonant y, so it uses initial i (cf. Ioudaios for Yhudim), which comes out sounding like a y when it's pronounced together with a following vowel anyway. Greek also has no letter equivalent to Hebrew shin (/sh/), so the standard transliteration is sigma (/s/). The final a in the Hebrew forms is a glide-element that shows up in other Semitic languages but isn't really part of the word per se. The final vowel should be u, but because of the gutteral consonant 'ayin that comes at the end of the name, an a-vowel is added. So the final u-sound is paralleled by Greek ou (Greek upsilon would have a different sound--like French long-u or German u-umlaut). The s on the end is part of a standard conversion from other languages to Greek. Since Greek nouns almost always have case endings, including names, the s is added to give the name the right feel. We get the same rendering for Joshua in the Greek OT, so I don't see any reason that it would mean something different in the NT.

Trevor Peterson

CUA/Semitics

 

[Sabian]

I understood what Treror Peterson said But I disagree.Explain why they spell HalleluYAH
with an A when translating it ?
Notice the A in YAH.
Are you telling me that the MESSIAH's name would not be translated the same way .
As hundreds of other names and word are translated with an A but the FATHER's ,SON name is tranlated with an E .

You ask for a Scholar I gave you a Scholar.
He also also disagreed with you.

Don't you think that if they Removed YHWH from scripture that they also removed the FATHER's name from YAHSHUA. SALVATION OF YAH.

(In case you missed it the first time, this is the etymology from Hebrew to Greek
You Might be right here but YAH does it would be IOA.
Which is contained the the Messiahs name ,YAH-SHUA.

Or do you think that they mistranslated YAH all over scripture.

 

[Sabian]

The name given in MattitYAHu 1:21 in my Hebrew language bible is "Yeshua" and the tranlation given directly there is "He will save" For, it says, "He will save His people from missing the mark." The Hebrew word used for "sins" in the King James Version means "to miss the mark".
Moshe called Oshea, the son of Nun (Numbers 13:6), Y'Hoshua meaning "YAH,his help". YAHSHUA or YAHUHUA is by no means the same as Yeshua or Y'hoshua. The son of Nun is NOT ha-Meshiach.



Jeshua/Yeshuwa` was a the son of Jozadak. (Ezra 3:2)
His name means "He is saved, Or, He be saved".It does not mean Salvation of YAH

 

[Higher Truth]

What can I say.......I am throwing in the towel ...believe what you will.....