Kosher

[Diakoneo10]

If you are going to follow basic Messianic teachings, then the food laws
as outlined in the Torah do seem easy. However, you have to be very careful of ingredients because many of them can contain unkosher items.

Rabbinical kosher laws are much more complex, and generally not followed by Messianics.

Ha! Thanks Chavak! You answered part of my next question before I even posted it.

 

[Diakoneo10]

What do you mean?

Catholics believe you are born into Christianity. Protestants and most other traditions in Judeo-Christian history believe that salvation comes by a conscious choice made later in life and is not something which can be inherited by simply being born in a Christian family.

But that was just to answer your question... Not to bring it up for debate in this thread. I was just explaining the difference.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Thank you seven. That makes a little more sense as to the classifications.

I saw it brought up earlier that Jews and Messianics do not practice the law in the same ways. Is the sacrificial element the only difference? Shouldn't the reading and interpretation be the same? I understand some MJ's don't observe Talmud and other sources... But Biblically- are the differences based solely on scriptures?

The reading and interpretation should be the same, but this is a process toward unity. Always compare a teaching to Torah - it must hold up when held to the light. It's possible to keep the Law, but it's a process to birth the new man, from there, it's a continual renewal process.

It's not necessarily a "bad" thing to become unclean, as someone already stated, it is a "state-of-being", it is to be expected as we live life and cannot always be avoided. However, being aware of what state we are in, heightens our conscience in relation to our Creator. The laws of "clean" and "unclean" actually helps people function as a community, to become connected to one another and accountable for our state of being as well as the state of being of others. We have the ability to affect others (and ourselves) positively or negatively.

"Clean"/tahor and "unclean"/tamei is an interesting study. Leviticus 10:10

 

[ananda]

Ok I have two questions:
1) concerning food laws- is there more to it than Leviticus chapter 11? Because that seems pretty basic and easy honestly.

Simply put, don't eat what YHWH listed we should not eat.

2) when things/people are referred to as being unclean.... What does this mean? Why does it matter if we are unclean? What are the consequences?

Unclean things are not food. What would you say if someone says "hey let's go eat some plastic bolts today!" You would (hopefully) and rightfully answer, "but that's not food". Same goes with unclean things. Our Maker has determined that those unclean things are not food. They may be meat, but they are not food.

Eating unclean things may or may not cause physical harm to our bodies. However, the act of disobedience to YHWH's commandment to not eat unclean things makes that act a sin, and is definitely a harm to our spiritual selves.

 

[xDenax]

Of course there are many more examples, but, bottomline, YHWH is the G-d of the Living. Death (a figurative picture of sin) cannot exist in His presence.

Where on earth do you get this?

What do you mean?

Non-Catholics would say you couldn't be a Christian from birth since it requires you to make a decision about Jesus as your savior. You can't do that as an infant.

 

[xDenax]

Unclean things are not food. What would you say if someone says "hey let's go eat some plastic bolts today!" You would (hopefully) and rightfully answer, "but that's not food". Same goes with unclean things.

This is ridiculous. If beef is food then rabbit is food. Being unkosher according to Jewish laws and traditions does not mean it isn't edible. But this is the absurdity that develops when you try to take a guideline for one people group and apply it to the entire planet. Do you really think God would tell a coastal tribal people that they cannot eat the abundant supply of seafood right next to their hut because "it isn't food"?

 

[yedida]

This is ridiculous. If beef is food then rabbit is food. Being unkosher according to Jewish laws and traditions does not mean it isn't edible. But this is the absurdity that develops when you try to take a guideline for one people group and apply it to the entire planet. Do you really think God would tell a coastal tribal people that they cannot eat the abundant supply of seafood right next to their hut because "it isn't food"?

So the dietary laws are only intended for those who live inland? Really?

 

[ananda]

This is ridiculous. If beef is food then rabbit is food. Being unkosher according to Jewish laws and traditions does not mean it isn't edible.

Torah defines what is meant for men and women to eat ("food"), and what isn't meant for men and women to eat ("not food"). Just because something's edible doesn't mean it's food.

But this is the absurdity that develops when you try to take a guideline for one people group and apply it to the entire planet. Do you really think God would tell a coastal tribal people that they cannot eat the abundant supply of seafood right next to their hut because "it isn't food"?

Absolutely, Torah is for everyone.

 

[xDenax]

So the dietary laws are only intended for those who live inland? Really?

They are intended for Jews who were given the Laws in the first place and were aware of them. It wasn't for Indians living on the now US west coast existing on whales and seals. It wasn't for the ancient Japanese who would have had access to all sorts of seafood. It isn't for the Massai who live in Kenya and have been known to drink blood from a cow. There is nothing wrong with eating the food that grows and exists where you live. Just because the Jews don't eat it doesn't mean it's not edible or that it's not okay for other people to eat it.

If God didn't want these people not to eat the things they eat, why didn't he let them know? Why didn't he go to everyone and make them aware of the rules?

 

[Patricio]

Oh you can ask, but it doesn't mean it's "kosher". The staff is not likely to know the exact details of every ingredient of every thing they serve. They may not know something has red dye in it (which unless kosher comes from insects) or that a little bit of lard is used in the cooking process. Or that the scrambled eggs you are eating were cooked on the same grill as the bacon.

Yeah, I am aware of that. That's why there is only one fast food chain that I trusted here in my place.

Even here in our local grocery, there are many unkosher foods, such as Jell-O (gelatin contains horse hooves to make the gel), marshmallows (they say it contains some pork ingredients) and things that contain certain dyes which are made from certain unclean bugs.

My mother and I have a list of kosher and unkosher foods so that we'll know what to look for and buy at the grocery store....

But I am also aware that Messianics are not held to the same kosher laws as Jews. And I'm glad to see you follow the biblical laws, as interpreted by Messianics.

Yes because Yeshua Himself ate only kosher foods.

 

[Patricio]

Non-Catholics would say you couldn't be a Christian from birth since it requires you to make a decision about Jesus as your savior. You can't do that as an infant.

Yeah exactly, but I am not certain because a traditional belief here in my place, once you were born and raised in the Catholic Family then you became a Christian. But this is contrary to Catholic doctrine, since as far as I know, one can't be considered a Christian without christening or baptism.

 

[Patricio]

Ok since I'm the one that brought the question up... Let me clarify. While I appreciate your input Patricio, I am not looking to start debates or arguments here. I was looking for answers from practicing Kosher Jews and Messianic Jews only. Because I am newly learning the intricacies of the Practices Torah and the Rabbinic rulings, I would like to see the answers limited to those who have extensive practiced and studied knowledge thereof. Thanks for the input again but can we please keep this one MJ or J only. It's much less confusing for someone who is new. I'm not ready for debates yet.

Hmmm... as far as I know, all who post here in this thread are either Messianic Jews and Jews alike.

 

[Lulav]

In other words Yedida and all gentiles, don't do what isn't for you, cause you ain't a legal Jew!

Now to the OP.

Yes, at first glance they sound simple and were,........................ back then.

However today it is a much different story. And is not straightforward at all.

For instance many of the kosher laws have to do with idolatry, which many say is dead today, but it isn't.

Let me list a few things to help you to understand where hidden trief or unkosher things can be that you can ingest.

Hair in your bread - L-cysteine comes from human hair. This hair source can be from offerings to idols in other countries and bought from the temples of these idols. That is why all bread goods, even just a plain kind, needs to have a hecksher. Also be baked in a kosher bakery or one certified kosher by the local Rabbinic. They would not only inspect the ingredients, but also turn on the ovens to make it kosher.

Castoreum - in many of your foods, what is it? secretions of the anal glands of a beaver, an unclean animal. It can be found in drinks and candies as well as other things, not clearly marked on the packaging but under the umbrella of 'natural flavoring'. That heading of NF is also used to hide pork fat in things like tomato sauce too.

Lard - In your maple syrup. What? Yes, even Maple syrup labled 100% pure could be contaminated with lard as in some processing plants, lard is used to grease the equipment to keep the syrup from sticking as it's bottled.

Lard - On all your food, What?:o How?

By using Aluminum foil to store your foods, this too can be processed on equipment that uses lard to keep the rollers greased. Look for the hecksher on the Aluminum foil. Reynolds is usually always certified. This goes for the aluminum pans for take away meals too that you may get in the store to cook in our receive for a take- out meal.

Bugs and mice etc - These can be hidden in prepared foods, and the government accepts a certain percentage allowable.
Both of these things are unclean for sure, so all foods need to be certified with this in mind.


Are you starting to see where it is difficult? It is not that things have changed regarding what we can eat, but how the industrial revolution has distanced us from growing our own food, thus having control over it from start to finish.

There are many more things but that should suffice to get you started.

There are things like vitamins, medications, OTC and Rx, as well as mouthwash, toothpaste, etc that also have to be scrutinized. Whew!

Shabbat Shalom

 

[yedida]

They are intended for Jews who were given the Laws in the first place and were aware of them. It wasn't for Indians living on the now US west coast existing on whales and seals. It wasn't for the ancient Japanese who would have had access to all sorts of seafood. It isn't for the Massai who live in Kenya and have been known to drink blood from a cow. There is nothing wrong with eating the food that grows and exists where you live. Just because the Jews don't eat it doesn't mean it's not edible or that it's not okay for other people to eat it.

If God didn't want these people not to eat the things they eat, why didn't he let them know? Why didn't he go to everyone and make them aware of the rules?

He did.

 

[yedida]

In other words Yedida and all gentiles, don't do what isn't for you, cause you ain't a legal Jew!

Now to the OP.

Yes, at first glance they sound simple and were,........................ back then.

However today it is a much different story. And is not straightforward at all.

For instance many of the kosher laws have to do with idolatry, which many say is dead today, but it isn't.

Let me list a few things to help you to understand where hidden trief or unkosher things can be that you can ingest.

Hair in your bread - L-cysteine comes from human hair. This hair source can be from offerings to idols in other countries and bought from the temples of these idols. That is why all bread goods, even just a plain kind, needs to have a hecksher. Also be baked in a kosher bakery or one certified kosher by the local Rabbinic. They would not only inspect the ingredients, but also turn on the ovens to make it kosher.

Castoreum - in many of your foods, what is it? secretions of the anal glands of a beaver, an unclean animal. It can be found in drinks and candies as well as other things, not clearly marked on the packaging but under the umbrella of 'natural flavoring'. That heading of NF is also used to hide pork fat in things like tomato sauce too.

Lard - In your maple syrup. What? Yes, even Maple syrup labled 100% pure could be contaminated with lard as in some processing plants, lard is used to grease the equipment to keep the syrup from sticking as it's bottled.

Lard - On all your food, What?:o How?

By using Aluminum foil to store your foods, this too can be processed on equipment that uses lard to keep the rollers greased. Look for the hecksher on the Aluminum foil. Reynolds is usually always certified. This goes for the aluminum pans for take away meals too that you may get in the store to cook in our receive for a take- out meal.

Bugs and mice etc - These can be hidden in prepared foods, and the government accepts a certain percentage allowable.
Both of these things are unclean for sure, so all foods need to be certified with this in mind.


Are you starting to see where it is difficult? It is not that things have changed regarding what we can eat, but how the industrial revolution has distanced us from growing our own food, thus having control over it from start to finish.

There are many more things but that should suffice to get you started.

There are things like vitamins, medications, OTC and Rx, as well as mouthwash, toothpaste, etc that also have to be scrutinized. Whew!

Shabbat Shalom

.

You gave a lot of great information but left out one item
Kashrus Agencies
For those who would like to start looking at the certification heckshers.

 

[yedida]

A really strange story happened last month. I go every month for my pain injections and afterward I get cookies and juice. Normally I get 2 cans of apple juice but last month I asked for that and 1 can of grape juice. After drinking the apple juice, which has the circle K on it I checked the grape juice. Same company but no hecksher. I couldn't imagine one juice being kosher and another not, but I sent it back anyway for another can of apple. Any ideas why a certification on one and not the other or why grape juice might not be kosher where the apple was? I'm perplexed

 

[ChavaK]

Any ideas why a certification on one and not the other or why grape juice might not be kosher where the apple was? I'm perplexed

Grape juice falls into the same status as wine and is thus subject to special kosher restrictions.
Production of wine and grape juice must be done exclusively by observant Jews.
After the seal is open, the bottle should only be handled by Jews (unless it's mevushal(boiled)wine which is a different story).
This is not true for other juices (unless they contain grape juice).

 

[yedida]

Grape juice falls into the same status as wine and is thus subject to special kosher restrictions.
Production of wine and grape juice must be done exclusively by observant Jews.
After the seal is open, the bottle should only be handled by Jews (unless it's mevushal(boiled)wine which is a different story).
This is not true for other juices (unless they contain grape juice).

Thanks! That just had me so confused with them being from the same company. Live and learn! At least the apple juice is good and I now bring my own cookies, so all is good and kosher in recovery. Yea!!

 

[Patricio]

Grape juice falls into the same status as wine and is thus subject to special kosher restrictions.
Production of wine and grape juice must be done exclusively by observant Jews.
After the seal is open, the bottle should only be handled by Jews (unless it's mevushal(boiled)wine which is a different story).
This is not true for other juices (unless they contain grape juice).

Yeah, as far as I know, same blessing are pronounced whenever Jews drink them.

 

[Lulav]

A really strange story happened last month. I go every month for my pain injections and afterward I get cookies and juice. Normally I get 2 cans of apple juice but last month I asked for that and 1 can of grape juice. After drinking the apple juice, which has the circle K on it I checked the grape juice. Same company but no hecksher. I couldn't imagine one juice being kosher and another not, but I sent it back anyway for another can of apple. Any ideas why a certification on one and not the other or why grape juice might not be kosher where the apple was? I'm perplexed

'thanks, I didn't want to overwhelm her.

As far as the grape juice, these fall into other catagories outside of juice. It is from 'hagafen' the vine, and not a tree, ha etz, which other fruits come from. Because wine since ancient times thus grape products, was used for idolatrous purposes it is handled differently. Even today these practices are still done, that is why you should not drink non-kosher wine.