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Knowing good and evil

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by [email protected], Feb 28, 2021.

  1. Nathan@work

    [email protected] Always ready :)

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    Genesis 3:22 (ESV) Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--”

    Do you believe that you are just like God in the way of knowing good and evil?
     
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  2. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    God said that we were, if only in that respect.
    One big difference, though; He isn't corrupted as a result of knowing evil.
     
  3. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Having the knowledge of good and evil only means that, due to and after the Fall, man was aware of both, as God is, by experience, whereas previously in his innocence he knew neither as separately identifiable realities-because everything was good in his world. That was his problem, in fact, he didn't yet appreciate what he had and the experience of sin/evil would potentially gain him the wisdom to do just that, to, ultimately, choose only the good, the highest good being God, Himself, the source of all goodness, when He comes calling by His grace.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
  4. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Before Moses:
    Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that
    every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
    After Moses:
    Romans 7:7-25
    Maturity In Christ:
    Hebrews 5:14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, those who by reason of use
    have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    Yes. To not just know, but rightly discern and live "in righteousness and holiness all the days
    of our lives".
    Luke 1:75
     
  5. EmethAlethia

    EmethAlethia Newbie

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    Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    According to God, even the lost know the truth and also know that they are worthy of death for practicing such things. How, God made it evident within them. True, they suppress the truth God wrote on their hearts:

    Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

    But you cannot "suppress"(an act of will) that which you do not know exists. But perhaps the truth about God isn't clearly evident to them. But no. That's not true. How do we know?

    Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

    But how can they "Know" surely they can't know God's invisible attributes like His eternal eternal power, His divine nature ... are not clearly seen by the lost, and even if they are, they are not understood. Clearly the lost have a reasonable case for missing out on the truth about God, right? No? Are you sure? Yep.

    Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, and His divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

    But the lost don't know God, right? Nope.

    Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, ...


    So how do they end up where they are at? They suppress the truth God gave them (vs.18) and ...

    they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    And in doing so they ...

    Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

    then they commit other acts of will that God gives them consequences for...

    Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

    they choose to do this and God gives them consequences for it ...

    Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

    But surely they do not have the truth of God, right? Surely they don't "choose" to exchange what God gave them for a lie, right?

    Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    Yes, that is exactly what they choose to do. And when they do God gives them even more consequences for their choices.

    Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

    But this is not a choice, right? God made them so they could net see, could not understand, could not receive Him, right? Wrong. It's all choice.

    Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

    Consequences for choices and acts of will ... now we have come full circle ... everyone who will be judged will do so because they chose to suppress, reject, exchange ... the truth of God for a lie, not because they don't know their choices or couldn't make a different one, but because they love their chosen beliefs more than the truth written on their hearts from the beginning. We have come full circle.

    Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    Everybody gets what they want. Everybody gets what they need to hold fast to "what they want to believe" "as" truth unless they love truth more than any/all of their beliefs. Here's a little summary of how people end up believing lies as truth and the truth to be lies...

    How to Believe Lies or Get to Truth.

    Part One: How to Believe Lies “as” Truth (One Page)

    Excerpt from my book, Galaxy Lord Discovery:

    “I said, "If you think about it, that’s pretty much that’s the normal way things progress when two people from different belief groups share their beliefs. What do we share?

    1.) We share the proof we have that verifies our views are the correct ones. What else do we share?

    2.) We share all the evidence we have that shows the other person’s views are off.

    3.) How do we interpret everything? Well, in the light of what we know is truth, of course. What is truth? Our beliefs. All correct interpretations of all “valid” data must support, or at least not negate, our infallible beliefs.

    4.) What do we keep jumping back to when our beliefs are questioned? Everything I just listed.

    No matter what our belief group, or beliefs, we all share the data we know “verifies our beliefs” and proves all “opposing beliefs” false.

    And the interpretations, of the data we have selected, are always in line with what each person knows is truth, and of course, no matter what our beliefs, no matter who we are, our core beliefs “are” “truth”.

    Ergo … All correct interpretations of valid data must align with our beliefs. But there is more.

    5. Anything that doesn’t seem to fit with our views, we reinterpret, ignore, discredit, invalidate …

    6. Then we usually have a few outside reasons for why we are in the belief groups we are in. Things like, we got a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, signs, wonders, we prayed to God for the truth on an issue and got “feelings” or some other characteristics of our belief group that prove “ours” is the correct one. This also includes things like: our group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, … our group has the most experts with doctorates …”

    I call #1-6 above “Methodology One”: The Methodology of Belief Groups)

    Any unquestionably true beliefs indicate the use of Methodology One above. The non-religious lost: Rom. 1:18-32. The religious but non-Christian: Rom. 10:1-3, Those that believe themselves to be Christians but aren’t: Mat. 7. Look at their responses to those who don’t agree with their beliefs in Mat. 7:6 Why? Look at what they have gathered using the Methodology above. And no one using it can get to truth, EVER. God didn’t design it for that.

    2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”

    If you use the exact same Methodology you get the exact same result: An unquestionable assurance that your beliefs are Fact. If you want truth, you have to do the opposite of that Methodology: The next one.

    Part 2: How to Get to Truth “Methodology Two” (Two Pages)

    2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    “That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. You can love your belief or truth. Pick one.”

    If your belief are “unquestionable truths”. We both know what you love and which methodology you will use. It’s on the previous sheet. But if your Methodology can’t get you “to” the truth does it matter how vehemently you hold to your beliefs.

    Rules for Getting to Truth

    1.) We must avoid “Methodology One” (Previous page): That Methodology only hardens, those that use it, into believing whatever lies they “want to believe” “as” truth. That Methodology is “Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them.” On this sheet you have the “opposite” Methodology, i.e. what is required if we want to alter all our beliefs to fit truth.

    2.) We must remain open minded to altering any or all of our beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “Might” pertain to the topic at hand, is rightly divided. Unquestionable/Infallible beliefs you will never even consider altering in a million years, prove a love of beliefs, not truth, and thus we have closed our eyes and ears lest we see and hear. If that is the case, we love our beliefs, not truth. (See 2Th. 2:10-15. Everyone gets what they want.)

    3.) We, personally, must get absolutely everything anyone thinks might pertain to the topic at hand. Then we must gather all the data that “might pertain” that no group gathered. No belief group gathers what they can’t use to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false. (Do this first and put all passages in bible order. Why? Everyone wants to interpret their “selected” data in the light of their beliefs and in the light of the rest of their “selected” passages.)

    4.) Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context. (Example: In a discussion on “cutting away”, pertaining to grape vines, first understand the first century practices for maintaining vineyards.)

    5.) Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, figures of speech parables … consistent throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament. Pick a meaning that fully fits everywhere the same word, root word, figure of speech is used. (Example: If phobos means fear, terror, shaking in your boots we are all going to die terror in 553 places where the word/root word is used, do not pick the meaning of respect or honor in the 2 places where you do not like the teaching.)

    6.) Hold to a meaning consistent with the “entire discussion” surrounding the verse or passage being considered, holding to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made … (Find the beginning and the end of the discussion each passage in question is a part of. Your interpretation must make perfect sense in the light of that entire context.)

    7.) Hold only to meanings consistent with conscience. (Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise, and your interpretation results in believing God does it, your interpretation is wrong. i.e. there are no illustrations in the bible where God says He commits adultery. If your “meaning” for the word would make God a violator of His own will or worse, committing adultery, you picked the wrong meaning.)

    8.) Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. “Any inconsistencies are proof of false beliefs/definitions.” (Example: God says He reproves all He loves, and that if there is no reproof you are not His. Ergo, if you believe someone is sinning and God does not reprove them for it either God does not love them or your belief that it is a sin is wrong.)

    9.) Pick an interpretation that fully fits with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (i.e., If the writer spent a whole chapter saying there are no gifts greater than any other, choosing an interpretation for a verse right after that discussion that means “earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts. Look for the “other” possible meaning.)

    10.) Interpret the Clearest, Easiest Understood, Most Straightforward … Passages First, Interpreting the Complex, Convoluted, Difficult Passages in their Light. (Difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.)

    11.) Pick a meaning for the parts that fully fits with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning that isn’t there, subtracting meaning that is, or distorting anything to force it to comply with your beliefs. If everything that pertains (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything else (#4) you have the wrong meaning. Hold to a consistency of meaning when we put all of the parts, rightly divided, together. (If 5% of your interpretations don’t fit the other 95% you are either distorting the 5% to hold to your beliefs, or forcing the 95% to fit your views even though they clearly contradict the meaning in the 5%. If you are not open to altering your beliefs to fit truth, you will continue to alter truth to fit your beliefs.)

    12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop and hold fast to what is good/true. This process never ends for truth lovers. Why? Just one verse, or one slight change in interpretation can force a complete reevaluation … and a change of beliefs … if you love truth… If not …

    Use these pages as a check list to find out which side of the following verses you fall on for each bible topic. Are your eyes and ears closed to considering a different belief might be the truth? Or are all beliefs open to changing in the light of the fullness of the truth rightly divided? Do you use

    2Th 2:10-12 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason, God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

    Everyone gets what they want… from God. You can love your beliefs or truth. Pick one. The “Methodology” you use, and hold fast to, proves, beyond any doubt, what you love.​
     
  6. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Welcome . We are made in the image of God so we would have some of His characteristics while remaining His servant. Be blessed.
     
  7. Rachel20

    Rachel20 Well-Known Member

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    In the sense that God meant it, it must be so. But what that sense is exactly, I'm not sure. I like the experiential explanation somewhat, but it's not entirely satisfying. I think the "knowledge of good and evil" involved more than just a distinction lesson by contrast. I think it involved an entire new mode of reasoning that Adam/Eve lacked beforehand. Eve already understood "good" in one sense when she saw the fruit was good to make one wise, but it was strictly utilitarian and involved only the usefulness of a thing, not the rightness/wrongness of it, much like a child or sociopath might reason. Once the concern of death was removed by the serpent, she saw only utility -

    And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Genesis 3:6

    I believe after this, Adam/Eve had a new ability to reason from the pure rightness/wrongness of a thing, and this in turn was what made them accountable for any wrong they would then do.
     
  8. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    The two trees in the orchard -- it wasn't a "garden" as we think of it (vegetables, etc.) -- represent two distinct options: faith and knowledge. Genesis 2:8-9, "The Lord God planted an orchard in the east, in Eden; and there he placed the man he had formed. The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow from the soil, every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food. (Now the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were in the middle of the orchard.)"

    If one lives by faith then one has the basis of true life. If one lives by the knowledge of good and evil then one becomes a slave to the law. If one trusts God then there is no need to depend on the knowledge of right vs wrong. Adam and Eve were both created with faith but they were tempted to become like gods, knowing good and evil instead of living by faith.
     
  9. Nathan@work

    [email protected] Always ready :)

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    Consider this.

    After they ate, they saw they were naked, and assumed that was bad.

    Was their nakedness evil?

    If they knew good and evil, as God knows good and evil, then why did they think their nakedness was bad?

    God would not have made/left them in a bad state in the garden(orchard).
     
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