"Knowing" God exists... is this possible?

[Davian]

Every atheist I know follows the same logic. No one wanting to ever research, to ever study or to ever get culturalized about it, no one perhaps even interested on why do I claim mine is right and theirs is wrong. I told you what to do if you think I lie, study, read, compare and get culturalized by yourself, if you don't believe me.

I do not think you are lying.

 

[paulm50]

"Knowing" God exists... is this possible. Can Christians truthfully answer that question?

All structures, buildings to religions, needs a foundation, a base on which to build. For the purpose of knowing any god exist, that has to be their bible. Christians rely on the Old and New Testaments.

Genesis book 1, the claim is that the writers were inspired by god. Maybe they were inspired by their need to hold the tribe together in bondage in Babylon. Whatever the inspiration all they had were fables they told each other. There's no proof in the creation theory, there's mountains of proof of evolution. so much that it's stupid to ask someone to do their own, when so many eminent scientist have done it before. And had it verified.

The Garden of Eden is a myth, Cain and Abel a myth with giant holes in it, No proof of Abraham, or anything up to references of David, from other more powerful empires. Even then it's slim evidence of anything other than he lived and a ruler.

As for the Hebrews being god's chosen people. They have been kicked from pillar to post since the start. If there is a god, he should of got them to turn South once crossing Red Sea. Oranges v Oil, no brainer. Even today Muslims are more powerful.

Jesus a powerful preacher or son of god? As a preacher his legacy is second to none, Mohammed's is second. As a son of god, his legacy is all the religious wars, martys and mass killings like the holocaust. All preventable if he had got off the cross, gone to Rome, converted the powerhouse of the time and remained there. A mortal couldn't do that, he has to rely on others to spread his message, and it being distorted into all the different ones we see today.

So there's your foundation for knowing god exists, is it convincing?

Or would you rather take it from a book that tells you what writers want you to believe. Like a political manifesto?

 

[katerinah1947]

I gave you a lot of evidence from professional scientists, I can give you a lot more. In science no one does everything in a vacuum, they use each others work to build on. I don't need to find the tailbone in a Humans body, the gills in a fetus in the womb, the 100s of dead scent glands we still have which are a relic from our distant past, the different Hominids that were here before and during Humans life on Earth. Others have done this work before, had it reviewed, had it accepted, and going on to discover more truth.

You do need to show your work to seem credible, especially now you claim to talk and meet god and angels. As you say, you will never show your work. Why should someone so blessed have to do anything for us mere mortals?

Hi,
I still cannot find anyone in my searches, who has proved the Bible is wrong. That is what I asked. Your implications from your statement, is there are multiple proofs that the Bible has been proven wrong, yet I just looked and ai can't find any yet.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[paulm50]

If you just say "they all claim the same so they can't be truth" you will go nowhere. Yes, they all claim the same, but only one of them claims them honestly and without lying. The only answer I can give to you is to study by yourself, to learn and to compare the theology by yourself and so you will find the answer.

By the way, the Orthodox Church is one It just carries the name of the countries it is in, but that doesn't divide it.

If you just say "they all claim the same so they can't be truth" you will go nowhere. Yes, they all claim the same, but only one of them claims them honestly and without lying. The only answer I can give to you is to study by yourself, to learn and to compare the theology by yourself and so you will find the answer.

By the way, the Orthodox Church is one It just carries the name of the countries it is in, but that doesn't divide it.

This is what I said.

"Which Orthodox Church? There are so many of them claiming to have the 100% right answer, and they're all different. Does god talk to all of them and tell them all different stories?" They all claim to to have the right answer, even though it's often a different one. Go take a look at those Orthodox Churches and stretch further into the Asian, African and Middle Eastern ones.

Every atheist I know follows the same logic. No one wanting to ever research, to ever study or to ever get culturalized about it, no one perhaps even interested on why do I claim mine is right and theirs is wrong. I told you what to do if you think I lie, study, read, compare and get culturalized by yourself, if you don't believe me.

Study what? Not the bible in order to believe in the bible. One needs to study History, Archeology and Paleontology to see the bible is wrong.

I could study the Iliad to be convinced it's true.

Mary, Google Evolution and read. You should be gone for about 20 years and only scratching the surface. It proves Genesis is wrong. Or ask god or an angel the next time they come round to visit.

I'm done with you until you offer anything to refute the proof.

 

[Dave RP]

Hi,
I still cannot find anyone in my searches, who has proved the Bible is wrong. That is what I asked. Your implications from your statement, is there are multiple proofs that the Bible has been proven wrong, yet I just looked and ai can't find any yet.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

When you say "proof" the Bible is wrong, I don't really understand what you are looking for? Science has proved that the earth is billions of years old and that humankind evolved, does that not prove that god didn't "make" Adam and Eve? If you're looking for more than that, you might as well ask for proof that all the stories in the Harry Potter books are "wrong"..... I could say I believe in them and that a very powerful wizard has made the world so that Harry Potter and the wizards live among us undetected - could you prove me wrong?

 

[katerinah1947]

When you say "proof" the Bible is wrong, I don't really understand what you are looking for? Science has proved that the earth is billions of years old and that humankind evolved, does that not prove that god didn't "make" Adam and Eve? If you're looking for more than that, you might as well ask for proof that all the stories in the Harry Potter books are "wrong"..... I could say I believe in them and that a very powerful wizard has made the world so that Harry Potter and the wizards live among us undetected - could you prove me wrong?

Hi,
The definition of proof here is, like 2+2=4, like those controlled experiments that I did, and essentially accidentally found out the Bible rather than being fiction, was verified.
I mean like with hard evidence like Radio Carbon Dating, which shows that man existed at Fort Rock in Oregon as far back as 14,000 plus years ago. I just got finished watching that program on OPB.
I mean the kind of proof that stands up, not to reporters, and not to conspiracy theorists, but to normal honest scientists.
The universe being roughly 13,000,000,000 years old, and the earth being roughly 3,500,000,000 suggests only that The Bible is wrong. Do you know that those folks who claim Adam was created in 5,000 B.C. or so guessed only that their interprtations of that date were accurate? Do you remember the words spoken, not the reports of them but the words spoken against Galileo? They said he was wrong by Scripture in several places.
Getting the Bible wrong in translations for scientific items is common. Yet, it still has not been proven wrong yet, like in proving that the acceleration do to gravity is the same for all objects, independent of their weight/mass, in a vacuum. They used to think it was weight related. Also at one time, phlogiston, a subtance, was thought to be in things, and releasing that caused burning. Time used to be a constant. All of those have had experiments to prove them wrong. I mean proofs like that.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Dave RP]

Hi,
The definition of proof here is, like 2+2=4, like those controlled experiments that I did, and essentially accidentally found out the Bible rather than being fiction, was verified.
I mean like with hard evidence like Radio Carbon Dating, which shows that man existed at Fort Rock in Oregon as far back as 14,000 plus years ago. I just got finished watching that program on OPB.
I mean the kind of proof that stands up, not to reporters, and not to conspiracy theorists, but to normal honest scientists.
The universe being roughly 13,000,000,000 years old, and the earth being roughly 3,500,000,000 suggests only that The Bible is wrong. Do you know that those folks who claim Adam was created in 5,000 B.C. or so guessed only that their interprtations of that date were accurate? Do you remember the words spoken, not the reports of them but the words spoken against Galileo? They said he was wrong by Scripture in several places.
Getting the Bible wrong in translations for scientific items is common. Yet, it still has not been proven wrong yet, like in proving that the acceleration do to gravity is the same for all objects, independent of their weight/mass, in a vacuum. They used to think it was weight related. Also at one time, phlogiston, a subtance, was thought to be in things, and releasing that caused burning. Time used to be a constant. All of those have had experiments to prove them wrong. I mean proofs like that.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

But you've just answered yourself, the Universe is immeasurably old, and has evolved not been created. Fossils show that human kind evolved and was not created, what more proof do you want that the bible is a story, a work of fiction?

Of course, as a person of faith, you will believe the bible is true, that's fine but blind faith does not make it a fact.

 

[paulm50]

Proof of evolution is around us, our pets, food and gardens flowers all using Darwin's selection theory to speed up Nature. Early Farmers would of used it, like the people Cain and Abel represent.

We don't need to search hard for more proof.

Evolution of dinosaurs.

Evolution of mammals.

Evolution of man.

From Fish to Man.

Weeks of evidence, which to cross check would take decades. It did take decades and has been, reviewed, checked and even some has been corrected when they find new evidence. Does this prove Genesis and creation right or wrong? The only logical answer is that it's wrong. They missed a lot, like god didn't create man or women from a man. That millions of species came long before, the actual process of Genesis is in the wrong order. As is the timeline to farmers. As much as believers wish to twist the story away from the original meaning, it remains wrong.

Noah and the Ark. simple reply. The Ark wasn't big enough to take all the species on the Earth at that time.

Moses and Exodus, no mention of him from the Egyptians.

And so on, science is looking for sodom and Gomorrah. To decipher what really happened. Did these places exist? Probably. Was their demise the result of an Earthquake, volcanic eruption? The area is a major fault line and these cities are located exactly on this fault line. Part of god's creation to kill anyone, good,and bad. Or just a faultline in the earth's crust. A remnant from the time the Earth was a flaming mass? Was every Earthquake and Volcanic, tornado, cyclone, hurricane, tsunami, whatever, since then god punishing people?

No it was a story to control frightened people. Now all they have to scare us is life after death, and no one comes back and says it's not all that.

Proof the bible is fake. Now understand the purpose those people had. And so many who came afterwards. Then get on with the essential part of Jesus's message, love thy neighbour, do unto others, suffer not little children, etc.

 

[Wryetui]

There is it, there is the approach that marks the difference. Christianity in the West has lost its roots, it got denatured, it is nothing more than a "religion", nothing more than "a system of beliefs" that have to be proved by the "superior" intellectuals in order to be believed.

Communion with God doesn't come with proof, this whole thing of proving God doesn't come in our world until the 11th century with the development of Scholastics, with Anselm of Canterbury, when they thought human reason and logic is enough to prove God, but it only represents an edenic fall from knowledge and it deeply marked the West inot losing the mystery of the divine union between man and God through Jesus Christ, the feeling of God's grace and the mysticism of the restauration of the fallen man. Atheists argue from reason/intellect. We, Orthodox christians, argue from life, living experience, from the heart moulded by daily life and prayer. So we have two completely different approaches. It could even be said that the fact that for us there is NO rational proof of the existence of God is proof that He exists. For us, He is Creator and we are creation. How can you expect the created human reason to understand the Creator, when our knowledge (so-called science/scientia) of the Creation is still minute, even though it increases daily? If we could understand God, it would be proof that He is a manmade myth. Only the real God is beyond human reason, meta-rational (though not irrational).

If you ever want to meet God, cleanse from sin, purify yourself and God will reveal to you, because that effort from turning from sin to virtue is what will make you sensitive of God's grace and the metanoia will happen. The proofs of God's existence I would say that make us sinful, and why do I say that? Because in order to seek proof of God we are declaring ourselves judges over God, like He isn't good enough for us only if He fits our reasoning, our logic, our minds, creating in us the worst sin of them all, pride, opening an umbrella above our heads that keeps us from God's grace.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, there is, you just don't know it It's called the Orthodox Church.

Really? The preacher at my door yesterday said it was a different church.

 

[Dave RP]

There is it, there is the approach that marks the difference. Christianity in the West has lost its roots, it got denatured, it is nothing more than a "religion", nothing more than "a system of beliefs" that have to be proved by the "superior" intellectuals in order to be believed.

Communion with God doesn't come with proof, this whole thing of proving God doesn't come in our world until the 11th century with the development of Scholastics, with Anselm of Canterbury, when they thought human reason and logic is enough to prove God, but it only represents an edenic fall from knowledge and it deeply marked the West inot losing the mystery of the divine union between man and God through Jesus Christ, the feeling of God's grace and the mysticism of the restauration of the fallen man. Atheists argue from reason/intellect. We, Orthodox christians, argue from life, living experience, from the heart moulded by daily life and prayer. So we have two completely different approaches. It could even be said that the fact that for us there is NO rational proof of the existence of God is proof that He exists. For us, He is Creator and we are creation. How can you expect the created human reason to understand the Creator, when our knowledge (so-called science/scientia) of the Creation is still minute, even though it increases daily? If we could understand God, it would be proof that He is a manmade myth. Only the real God is beyond human reason, meta-rational (though not irrational).

If you ever want to meet God, cleanse from sin, purify yourself and God will reveal to you, because that effort from turning from sin to virtue is what will make you sensitive of God's grace and the metanoia will happen. The proofs of God's existence I would say that make us sinful, and why do I say that? Because in order to seek proof of God we are declaring ourselves judges over God, like He isn't good enough for us only if He fits our reasoning, our logic, our minds, creating in us the worst sin of them all, pride, opening an umbrella above our heads that keeps us from God's grace.

Of course as a believer that is what you will say, because that is what you believe. In a way I admire you, the certainty you have must be comforting. "He exists, FOR US!" Indeed that is the point, it doesn't matter whether god exists or not, as you have your belief until you die and good luck to you. I believe we live, we die, that's it - not much comfort there. but that's how I see it.

 

[Wryetui]

After all, you cannot teach people not willing to learn, right?

God acts in the same way I suppose, He will not reveal Himself to those not willing to discover Him.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

After all, you cannot teach people not willing to learn, right?

God acts in the same way I suppose, He will not reveal Himself to those not willing to discover Him.

There are many Christians, Muslims, and Jews praying that you will discover him (in their religion).

 

[Dave RP]

After all, you cannot teach people not willing to learn, right?

God acts in the same way I suppose, He will not reveal Himself to those not willing to discover Him.

Hmmmmm, as you say, it's your belief - which God of course might be important - the God of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Shinto, Ancient Greek, Roman, Celtic, Druid, whomever - all had or have the same certainty, God has revealed himself to them. My opinion, if God exists, it's only in the mind of the believer, but hey, I'm off to eternal damnation and I really don't care so it's lucky I don't believe isn't it. If the God of Islam is correct, I'll see you there.

 

[katerinah1947]

But you've just answered yourself, the Universe is immeasurably old, and has evolved not been created. Fossils show that human kind evolved and was not created, what more proof do you want that the bible is a story, a work of fiction?

Of course, as a person of faith, you will believe the bible is true, that's fine but blind faith does not make it a fact.

Hi,
I don't and never have used blind faith. I am against it now, even if I am later found to be wrong. I was against and said so in seventh grade.
I want hard proof the book is fiction. I was given hard proof the Bible is Real when
I was sixty. Then I was given more and more, to the point that at times, I doubted my own sanity.
In one case, a Ph.D. psychologist told me. "Isn't it nice that you are getting verifications for who you are?" One of her clients had just mentioned after I had left, that the healing energy was extremely high compared to normal, the week before. I brought this up, because both the Pschologist and that woman noticed things, as a result of my connection with God at times, and so I could tell you this next part.
I deal with people who are alcoholics and Narcissists, one pschopath, etc etc etc. Over the years they have given me much trouble. To combat their accusations, when they accused me of being the one with the problems, I would submit myself to the Psychologists, Therapists and Psychiatrists to find out if they were right? Was I some form of mentally ill? They all said the same things about me, which was that, if I am mentally ill, they see no signs of it, with the possible exception of very light OCD, but no one was sure of that then. The first diagnosis of normalcy surprised me. The last one was the best in a way.
For the last one, for GID, I am getting a full Psychiatric exam, and it took five weeks ir so. The result was, no pathologies, but real mysticism, Real GID, and a very high Spiritual connection, that is usually only understood by high clerics or highly spiritual persons. And I was given a letter from them to protect me in the future from people.
The hardest for me for awhile, was to accept being a real mystic. I had always denied that as either a form of episodic mental illness, or one off episodes with God, that does not make me a mystic, let alone a medical mystic, let alone a normal condition in some people.
When, I was finally done with trying to prove the Bible wrong, it was the results of the Controlled experiments, that proved the Bible was right. So, with a hard proof, like five controlled experiments with zero variance in the data, which is impossible, all saying the same thing, The Bible is Real, I would need the opposing experiment to be that solid.
Bible people think they need their scientific interpretations to be right it seems, thus evolution, Sun centered planetary system, the age of man, and the name of God even have all historically been claimed as beyond contstation, yet not only were they wrong on those items, it is nit clearly stated in the Bible any of those things, but rather it is stated to do and follow science, and even the Laws of the government, to discern God's Will on items not specifically talked about in that book.
It us fear maybe. It us lack of something. My position is unique, in that I have the proofs, and much follow on evidence, but maybe me supposedly being a real Christian type of Mystic, also allows this normal heavy science and experimental type, to also be able to do the work properly on those controlled experiments. I don't really know why the God types fear science, but how many of them have essentially seen God, also?
Have I lost you yet? I hope not.
I will leave off here. Hard proofs, like science ones, not suggestions, but hard proofs that the Bible is false, is what I would need to falsify, my data, like proving it is oxygen and not a sustance called Phlogiston, that is responsible for burning.
Thanks, for being kind.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Dave RP]

Hi,
I don't and never have used blind faith. I am against it now, even if I am later found to be wrong. I was against and said so in seventh grade.
I want hard proof the book is fiction. I was given hard proof the Bible is Real when
I was sixty. Then I was given more and more, to the point that at times, I doubted my own sanity.
In one case, a Ph.D. psychologist told me. "Isn't it nice that you are getting verifications for who you are?" One of her clients had just mentioned after I had left, that the healing energy was extremely high compared to normal, the week before. I brought this up, because both the Pschologist and that woman noticed things, as a result of my connection with God at times, and so I could tell you this next part.
I deal with people who are alcoholics and Narcissists, one pschopath, etc etc etc. Over the years they have given me much trouble. To combat their accusations, when they accused me of being the one with the problems, I would submit myself to the Psychologists, Therapists and Psychiatrists to find out if they were right? Was I some form of mentally ill? They all said the same things about me, which was that, if I am mentally ill, they see no signs of it, with the possible exception of very light OCD, but no one was sure of that then. The first diagnosis of normalcy surprised me. The last one was the best in a way.
For the last one, for GID, I am getting a full Psychiatric exam, and it took five weeks ir so. The result was, no pathologies, but real mysticism, Real GID, and a very high Spiritual connection, that is usually only understood by high clerics or highly spiritual persons. And I was given a letter from them to protect me in the future from people.
The hardest for me for awhile, was to accept being a real mystic. I had always denied that as either a form of episodic mental illness, or one off episodes with God, that does not make me a mystic, let alone a medical mystic, let alone a normal condition in some people.
When, I was finally done with trying to prove the Bible wrong, it was the results of the Controlled experiments, that proved the Bible was right. So, with a hard proof, like five controlled experiments with zero variance in the data, which is impossible, all saying the same thing, The Bible is Real, I would need the opposing experiment to be that solid.
Bible people think they need their scientific interpretations to be right it seems, thus evolution, Sun centered planetary system, the age of man, and the name of God even have all historically been claimed as beyond contstation, yet not only were they wrong on those items, it is nit clearly stated in the Bible any of those things, but rather it is stated to do and follow science, and even the Laws of the government, to discern God's Will on items not specifically talked about in that book.
It us fear maybe. It us lack of something. My position is unique, in that I have the proofs, and much follow on evidence, but maybe me supposedly being a real Christian type of Mystic, also allows this normal heavy science and experimental type, to also be able to do the work properly on those controlled experiments. I don't really know why the God types fear science, but how many of them have essentially seen God, also?
Have I lost you yet? I hope not.
I will leave off here. Hard proofs, like science ones, not suggestions, but hard proofs that the Bible is false, is what I would need to falsify, my data, like proving it is oxygen and not a sustance called Phlogiston, that is responsible for burning.
Thanks, for being kind.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

i hope that your beliefs give you comfort and peace.

 

[paulm50]

Communion with God doesn't come with proof, this whole thing of proving God doesn't come in our world until the 11th century with the development of Scholastics, with Anselm of Canterbury, when they thought human reason and logic is enough to prove God, but it only represents an edenic fall from knowledge and it deeply marked the West inot losing the mystery of the divine union between man and God through Jesus Christ, the feeling of God's grace and the mysticism of the restauration of the fallen man. Atheists argue from reason/intellect. We, Orthodox christians, argue from life, living experience, from the heart moulded by daily life and prayer. So we have two completely different approaches. It could even be said that the fact that for us there is NO rational proof of the existence of God is proof that He exists. For us, He is Creator and we are creation. How can you expect the created human reason to understand the Creator, when our knowledge (so-called science/scientia) of the Creation is still minute, even though it increases daily? If we could understand God, it would be proof that He is a manmade myth. Only the real God is beyond human reason, meta-rational (though not irrational).

After all, you cannot teach people not willing to learn, right?

God acts in the same way I suppose, He will not reveal Himself to those not willing to discover Him.

And for those who disagreed, there was always execution for heresy.

 

[katerinah1947]

i hope that your beliefs give you comfort and peace.

Hi,

The peace I have is beyond human words,,,maybe. I will try. As a Science type, I was heavy into that, but it was to find what I and others would call the greatest mysteries of life.

When I was shown the entire known and unkown universe, plus what it exists in, and Whose tenderness and mildness that represents, but not fully, as He is still more than that, and as I was allowed to touch the membrane in which this exists all around, I also saw where the earth was, then like in all real experiences of this kind, I knew, and the became dalm and peaceful about those things for the first time in my life, and ever since that time.

What dismays me, is I have had personal contact with God in an understanding and also personal, but later in a family way. And now, I am caught between two loves, two desires, two groups of persons I love and care for. God, and people like you.

I live a hermits life, but you are part of that job, that outreach. I go out from my hermitage to engage others.

Comfort, I rarely feel. Peace, I always feel and more. I feel love, and for the most part am only that any more.

Being only love, has not always been so for me, that I know of. It could have been, while I waited for someone to love and someone to love me. I have that now. And as outrageous as you might think the next part is, when I asked God for someone to love and someone to love me, I left it totally up to Him, who that would be.

I of course expected just a normal human, instead God chose Himself for me. The one the Christians call God The Father, He is the one who asked me, to be His. Before I was asked I was given the ability for awhile to love like God actually loves. After saying YES!, in September or of 2007, slowly I was changed into only being love.

Yes, I imagine you are thinking now, that I am Psychotic or worse now. Yet, they say I am not. I also say that I am not, rather it is just my life, for you to wonder about, maybe.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[paulm50]

The "old believers" problem Russia had was more of a political disagreement, I told you that never in the Orthodox Church something like executions like those happened and it is real, the russian's crimes were never in order of the Church.

The Tsar used the church, nothing out of the ordinary with rulers using religion.
The Orthodox church does have a better record on Heresy. As it overlooked a population living in serfdom .

 

[Wryetui]

Exactly, the tsar used the Church, the "government" of that country used the Church, not the Church used the government in order to fulfill their paranoias and neither it controlled the government as the RCC.