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KJV Only?

Are You KJV Only?

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kiwimac

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Westcott and Hort were, as all Christians are, an admixture of attitudes formed by their education and their society. They were, however, very definitely NOT Calvinistic. They were Anglicans.
 
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kiwimac

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One of the fellows on Bible Versions Discussion Board Forums has gone through Riplinger's HAZMAT twice. His critique of her makes interesting reading as he is both a native Greek speaker and a student of Koine Greek. I am in the process of arranging this critique into page order and will eventually publish it to WestcottHort.com.
 
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Jack Koons

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I agree on the aforementioned site being extreme in their dichotomy of articles.

I know nothing about Riplinger.

This is why I pulled down from Wikipedia a study,due to Wikipedia being a secular form of data I thought it would be unbiased.

In that case, read my threads, "History of the King James Bible", and "History of Textual Criticism", (Fundamentallist section) both came from Wilipedia because I was accused of reading "KJVOnly" sites.

Jack
 
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DeaconDean

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Westcott denied that Genesis 1 through 3 were historically true. Hort praised Darwin and his theory of evolution. Both Westcott and Hort praised the "Christian socialist" movement of their day. Westcott belonged to several organizations designed to promote "Christian socialism" and served as President of one of them (the Christian Social Union).

Here again, this is nothing new.

In 1879, Crawford H. Toy, was expelled as a Professor of Hebrew from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, located in Greenville S.C., because during one of his trips to Germany, he exposed to Darwin's theories on Evolution and "social evolution".

Upon return to the U.S., he began to teach that the crreation accpount of Genesis, must be taught in light of Darwins theories.

It cost him his job.

Just a little F.Y.I.

This is nothing new.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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SistrNChrist

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I personally prefer using the Complete Jewish Version of the Bible, because I find that to be more in line with the original scriptures, as well as NKJV, because the language is far easier to understand than the original KJV. For those of you using Wikipedia to convince others of the usage of KJVO, I thought I'd point out that the site isn't considered a credible source in most research fields, because not only can the pages be easily edited by anyone with an account, but there has been a movement that is attempting to wipe out any references to religion on the articles. So I'm going to need a little more convincing than a Wikipedia page before I believe that KJV only is the correct way to go.
 
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classicalhero

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You can judge what happened by the fruit of their labour. The fruit of Erasmus is that it began the proliforation of the understanding of God's Word and began a sort of a golden age of preaching that lasted over a few hundred yeas, until the introduction of the Westcott and Hort text. Ever since then we have seen a decline in Christianity due to their work.
 
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Jack Koons

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I personally prefer using the Complete Jewish Version of the Bible, because I find that to be more in line with the original scriptures, as well as NKJV, because the language is far easier to understand than the original KJV. For those of you using Wikipedia to convince others of the usage of KJVO, I thought I'd point out that the site isn't considered a credible source in most research fields, because not only can the pages be easily edited by anyone with an account, but there has been a movement that is attempting to wipe out any references to religion on the articles. So I'm going to need a little more convincing than a Wikipedia page before I believe that KJV only is the correct way to go.

A number of articles on the subject can be found at:

Trinitarian Bible Society - Founded in 1831 for the circulation of Protestant or uncorrupted versions of the Word of God

Jack
 
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kiwimac

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You can judge what happened by the fruit of their labour. The fruit of Erasmus is that it began the proliforation of the understanding of God's Word and began a sort of a golden age of preaching that lasted over a few hundred yeas, until the introduction of the Westcott and Hort text. Ever since then we have seen a decline in Christianity due to their work.

Because, of course, nothing else happened in society to bring that about! </sarcasm>
 
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kiwimac

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There are many other areas that cause fundamental Bible believers to have serious questions about Westcott and Hort. Westcott denied that Genesis 1 through 3 were historically true. Hort praised Darwin and his theory of evolution. Both Westcott and Hort praised the "Christian socialist" movement of their day. Westcott belonged to several organizations designed to promote "Christian socialism" and served as President of one of them (the Christian Social Union).

Both Westcott and Hort showed sympathy for the movement to return the Church of England to Rome. Both honored rationalist philosophers of their time like Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Dr. Frederick Maurice, and Dr. Thomas Arnold. Both were serious students of the Greek philosophers Plato and Aristotle.

There is much about the teaching of Westcott and Hort to deeply trouble any objective Bible believer.

THE WESTCOTT AND HORT ONLY CONTROVERSY
By Dr. Phil Stringer

This message was given at the 33rd Annual Meeting and Conference of the GraceWay Bible Society meeting, Saturday, October 27th, 2001, held at Brampton Ontario, Canada.

Shall we take a look at what Westcott and Hort did say about Genesis? About Darwin?

Quote #3: "No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history - I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did" (Life and Letters of Hort, Vol. II, pg. 69)

This quote comes from a letter Westcott wrote to the Archbishop of Canterbury, on March 4, 1890. The surrounding context from the letter is below (underlining added):
" The picture which you draw is sad, but I too, in my way, know that this is true. We want - and I know that I want, which is something - a living faith. When we are quite sure that God is speaking today - and He is speaking - we shall not grow wild in discussing how He once spoke.
I have purposely refrained from reading Lux Mundi, but I am quite sure that our Christian faith ought not to be perilled on any predetermined view of what the history and character of the documents contained in the O.T. must be. What we are bound to hold is that the O.T., substaintially as we receive it, is the Divine record of the discipline of Israel. This is remains, whatever criticism may determine or leave undetermined as to constituent parts. No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history - I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think that they did - yet they disclose to us a Gospel. So it is probably elsewhere. Are we not going through a trial in regard to the use of popular language on literary subjects like that through which we went, not without sad losses, in regard to the use of popular language on physical subjects? If you feel now that it was, to speak humanly, necessary that the Lord should speak of the "sun rising," it was no less necessary that He should use the names "Moses" and "David" as His contemporaries used them. There was no critical question at issue. (Poetry is, I think, a thousand times more true than History: this is a private parenthesis for myself alone.)"​
Westcott believed it was not literal prose, but poetical, and that "Poetry is, I think, a thousand times more true than History" - Westcott believed that it was true, just in poetical form instead of simply literal historical prose. He affirmed that the O.T. is the Divine record, given by God. He affirmed that the first three chapters of Genesis, although he did not take them literally as a record of six 24-hour periods, disclose a Gospel (he even wrote an essay, "The Gospel of Creation"). He affirmed the reality of Adam, the Fall, etc. (see this link for some quotes). He affirmed that God speaks in the language and style of the people he is speaking to - and the ancient Hebrews had a strong fondess for different styles, including poetic, apocalyptic, etc. Although his view on the first three chapters of Genesis is not the same as many modern Evangelicals, it was typical of the church of his day, and many in the church both before and after him, including most other Anglicans (which would most probably include Burgon, the KJV translators, etc.). To hold this quote as heretical is to hold the vast majority of the historical church as likewise heretical.

Darwin:

Quote #1: "Have you read Darwin? How I should like to talk with you about it! In spite of difficulties, I am inclined to think it unanswerable. In any case, it is a treat to read such a book." (Life and Letters of Hort, Vol. I, pg. 414).

Quote #2: "But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with. I must work out and examine the argument more in detail, but at present my feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Life and Letters of Hort, Vol. I, pg. 416).

These two quotes should be addressed together because they are generally the same idea, are only two pages apart. In those quotes, Hort expresses some positive comments about Darwin's book (which was published only one year earlier than this quote, and no formal Christian responses had yet been put forth), but you should take careful note that Hort does NOT assert acceptance of Darwin's theories, only that they were very interesting and an engaging read. The point is: one can admit a book is a very interesting and engaging read, even hard to answer, without agreeing with it or letting it affect one's doctrine. For example, I have read "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking. This book, although focused on science (time, space and quantum physics), does touch quite a bit on the subject of God, and questions the need of a creator, etc. Despite this, I found the book to be extremely interesting, and enjoyed reading it very much. However, I completely unable to put together a rebuttal to it, and it did not cause me to waver on my belief in the existence of God and his role in creating the universe.
The quotes above come from Life and Letters of Hort, Vol. I, page 414 and 416, but if you ever dig those quotes out for yourself, you'll see that nestled in between these quotes (on page 415, as well as on page 424) he writes to MacMillan (Westcott and Hort's publisher) that he desires to write and publish a formal critical response to Darwin's book, in both scientific and theological form (which he never did, due to other projects and time restraints). Hort saw some interesting possibilites in Darwin's theories, but that "it is a ticklish matter, and one wants months and months to think and read about it (pg. 415) and that "I do see immense difficulties in his theory" (pg. 431). Hort also said "I shall also be glad to hear what Sedgwick, and indeed Cambridge in general, says to Darwin." (pg. 416)



Sedgwick was a professor of geology at Cambridge, and although friends with Darwin, disagreed strongly with Darwin's theories.

As for Christian Socialism, here we see the use of the word 'socialism' to frighten people raising up the spectre of 'godless communism.' Christian Socialism takes Matt 25 and Luke 4 seriously when they tell us that G-d judges us on how we deal with the poor, the imprisoned, the tortured, the physically and mentally challenged in our midst.
 
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Jack Koons

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Sorry if I don't find Gail Riplinger and Jesus is Savior reliable resources. Both are heavy KJVO's with no Textual Criticism education. In fact they're nothing but bandwagon jumpers who jump on the KJVO bandwagon without doing any research and exegesis on their part.

You want to learn about Westcott and Hort go here. More reliable info then those two are:

westcotthort.com

Actually a member here Kiwimac runs that site.

Just for the record ... Anyone who takes a stand on any issue is then biased in the direction of their stand ... Bar none.

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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Shall we take a look at what Westcott and Hort did say about Genesis? About Darwin?



Darwin:



As for Christian Socialism, here we see the use of the word 'socialism' to frighten people raising up the spectre of 'godless communism.' Christian Socialism takes Matt 25 and Luke 4 seriously when they tell us that G-d judges us on how we deal with the poor, the imprisoned, the tortured, the physically and mentally challenged in our midst.

Nevertheless, the question is; Is there reference from other parts of Scripture, (such as the Pauline Epistles), that gives credibility to the Genesis account, for a HISTORICAL record? The answer of course is yes. Hence, the entire ideology of textual criticism is void. It matters not that Westcott believed in the poetic value of the Genesis account, it matters from a theological aspect whether he believed it to be historically credible ... Which by the testimony of his own pen; he did not. It would appear therefore that Westcott and the Apostle Paul had differing views concerning the Genesis account.

Jack
 
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DeaconDean

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The Bible is not a science text. Attempting to use it as such devalues both the Bible and science. The Bible does not speak of 'how' but why.

I am forced to conceed this point.

The bible contains history as well, but it not a history book.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Jack Koons

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The Bible is not a science text. Attempting to use it as such devalues both the Bible and science. The Bible does not speak of 'how' but why.

1) The word Westcott used was "history". (Not science)

2) The scientific facts found in the the scriptures are factual.

3) This is one of the tactics used by textual criticism to undermine Biblical authority as a whole. To say that the poetic books must be taken poetically, history as historical, and so forth, diminishes the authority of God in its entirety.

4) it must be understood that, since "all scripture" is given by inspiration of God, it is none other than the Holy Spirit that gives each and every narrative, no matter what the classification (given by textual criticism), and is therefore authoritative, as well as accurate in every classification.

5) This does not "devalue" the Bible as insinuated above, nay rather, it shows the authoritative nature of the Holy Spirit.

Jack
 
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kiwimac

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The Bible contains allegory, metaphor and simile as well as verses relating to a manner of topics. None of us believe G-d is a bird so when we see a verse saying that G-d will cover folk ' with the shadow of His wings' we understand a simile is being used. Assertions that all of the Bible is as authoritative as any other leave Christians wrestling with contradictory similes and metaphors.
 
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Jack Koons

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The Bible contains allegory, metaphor and simile as well as verses relating to a manner of topics. None of us believe G-d is a bird so when we see a verse saying that G-d will cover folk ' with the shadow of His wings' we understand a simile is being used. Assertions that all of the Bible is as authoritative as any other leave Christians wrestling with contradictory similes and metaphors.

While I am fully aware of texts like Psalm 91:1-4 and Isaiah 40:31, that speak in metaphoric language, as a whole, the Bible is to be taken in its normal, literal, historical, and grammatical meaning, unless, as has just been stated, it is CLEARLY otherwise. When taken in this manner, there are not contradictions as you assert. This is simply rhetoric on your part, used to insinuate something exists, that in no way does. The simple fact of the matter is, that these metaphors are simply given to the reader in order to illustrate things in the spiritual realm (which the reader does not understand prior to the use of the metaphor). When one understands the usage of metaphors, one does not make such assertions pertaining to metaphors. (Isn't that the point of using a metaphor? ... That was rhetorical.)

Jack
 
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Jack Koons

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I am forced to conceed this point.

The bible contains history as well, but it not a history book.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I believe a more accurate statement would be, 'It is not "only" a history book'. The fact that the Bible contains history, forces us to ask the question, 'Are all the historical accounts in the Bible true'? If they are not, the narrator is found to be a liar ... Do we really want to go there? ... Hence, in the Bible we have a multi faceted book, containing history, poems, prophesy, etc., as well as things pertaining to both the physical and spiritual, temporal and eternal. But in the final analysis, the question must once more be asked, "Is the 'narrative' always truth'? If the answer is anything other than "Yes", we call the Holy Spirit a liar.

So with all that being said, the Bible must always be taken as factual, in all aspects, regardless of the so-called classification of the particular book. or we call the author a liar ... And I for one, have no desire to enter that arena.

Jack

By the way DeaconDean, this post was not meant in opposition to your post, rather, it is meant as a matter of clarification.

Jack

While you may, or may not agree, it is my opinion that other than our stand on the KJV, our beliefs are in fact, very much alike.
 
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