KJV Only

[JM]

Just wanted to know how many folks are BOTH KJV/AV only and dispensational.

 

[JMWHALEN]

(Underline/bold is my emphasis)
"I'm a dispensationalist that uses...
the KJV/AV only.
the KJV/AV as my main Bible.
any translation."



My comment: I do not "use" the Holy Bible, I do not "use " the KJV/AV as my "main" Bible, and I do not "use" any translation. Nor do I "prefer" the Holy Bible, or "prefer" the KJV/AV as my "main" Bible, or 'prefer"any translation. I submit to the King James Bible alone, the("the" is singular, is it not?) Holy Bible, as God's inspired, preserved, and, by definition, without error, word for English speaking, as my final authority.

"my main Bible"? Main, by definition, means/implies "more than one" "the Bible", and thus, by definition, concedes more than one authority, concedes a competing final authority, and, thus, by definition, means no final authority.

I do not "use" it, in the sense that the term "use"(usually!) implies, i.e., objective words are subordinated to our interpretation. Too much of "christianity" has the following mind set-"I have my doctrine, now I will find a 'version' to 'use', one that I "prefer", that fits my doctrine".


There are many doctrines, words, commands, admonitions.......I don't really like,or "prefer", or "prefer to use", in the Holy Bible, which is the King James Bible for English speaking people. Does that surprise you? It did me when I admitted it! But the only relevant question I have asked myself, in my search for the inspired, preserved, without error(by definition) word of God, was "is this God's inspired, preserved word", and therefore, by definition, the truth? If it is, then my "opinion, my "preference", and whether or not I "prefer to use fill in the blank of your final authority", is irrelevant. If it is true, then my "preference" is "besides the point", and its "usability" is also, for it implies I have authority over it, and it is not my final authority. No, if it is true, whether I prefer it or not is quite irrelevant. I "better darn well" submit to it! The LORD God has no interest in what I "prefer", nor does He command me to "use" it. He commands me to submit to it, and to "... trembleth at my word"(Isaiah 66:2, Ezra 10:3), for, as it is written:

"I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." Psalms 138:2

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord:....." Acts 13:48.

"Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:..." 2 Thes. 3:1

"Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious. " Psalms 66:2

If the Lord Jesus Christ's name is so precious to God the Father, and it is(Acts 4:12, 19:17; Philippians 2:9-10; Eph. 1:21; 2 Thes. 1:12 ; Hebrews 1:4), and if God's own "...great name..."(Jeremiah 44:26, Ezekiel 36:23), His "...holy name...."(the most often cited attribute of the LORD God and His name is "holy"-Mt. 6:9; Luke 1:49, 11:2.......) is even exalted above all blessing, praise, and "honour"(Psalms 66:2), and it is(Deut. 28:58; 2 Samuel 7:26, 22:50; 1 Kings 8:42; 1 Chron. 16:29, 17:24, 23:13, 29:13; Neh. 1:11, 9:5; Job 1:21; Psalms 8:1, 8:9, 29:2, 34:3, 44:8, 48:10, 52:9, 54:6, 61:5, 68:4, 69:30, 72:17, 72:19, 79:9, 86:9, 86:12, 96:2, 96:8, 99:3, 100:4, 103:1, 111:9, 113:1-3, 115:1, 135:1, 142:7, 145:1-2, 148:5,13; Isaiah 12:4, 24:15, 25:1, 29:23, 48:11, 56:6; Jer. 10:6, 34:16; Ez. 39:7; Daniel 2:20; Malachi 2:2; John 12:28 ; Rev. 15:4 ), and if God has magnified His word above His own name, and He did and has(Psalms 138:2), then this is not a matter of "preference" or "usability/likeability".

The integrity of our faith, the faith, is dependent on the integrity of the word of God, is dependent on the "sure word"(2 Peter 1:19, "For the word of the LORD" must be"...right....", if all of the works of the LORD, including our justification, are to be "done in truth"(Psalms 33:4). The authority of which we believers speak is dependent on the final authority of "the" Holy Bible, "the" word of God,"...the scripture of truth...."(Daniel 10:21), which "....is true from the beginning"(Psalms 119:160).

Perhaps the following article better conveys my thoughts:
www.av1611answers.com/buffet.html


I write this to all you "...speaking the truth in love..."(Ephesians 4:15), for your edification("to build up"-Acts 9:31; Romans 14:19, 15:2; 1 Cor. 8:1, 14:26; 2 Cor. 10:8, 12:19, 13:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:11; Ephesians 4:12,16,29; 1 Timothy 1:4).

In Christ and with Christ,

John M. Whalen

 

[eph3Nine]

God does not tell us to rally round a "translation", or worldly name for a book, but to BELIEVE and PREACH a message which is found in His Word rightly divided.

The MESSAGE is the issue! Have YOU heard of the gospel of the Grace of God?

 

[JM]

My comment: I do not "use" the Holy Bible, I do not "use " the KJV/AV as my "main" Bible, and I do not "use" any translation. Nor do I "prefer" the Holy Bible, or "prefer" the KJV/AV as my "main" Bible, or 'prefer"any translation. I submit to the King James Bible alone, the("the" is singular, is it not?) Holy Bible, as God's inspired, preserved, and, by definition, without error, word for English speaking, as my final authority.

"my main Bible"? Main, by definition, means/implies "more than one" "the Bible", and thus, by definition, concedes more than one authority, concedes a competing final authority, and, thus, by definition, means no final authority.

I do not "use" it, in the sense that the term "use"(usually!) implies, i.e., objective words are subordinated to our interpretation. Too much of "christianity" has the following mind set-"I have my doctrine, now I will find a 'version' to 'use', one that I "prefer", that fits my doctrine".

Here's what I meant by "use" which jives with how the dictionary defines it.
- To put into service or apply for a purpose; employ.
- To avail oneself of; practice: use caution.
dictionary.com

The Bible is 'put into service' and then 'applied for the purpose' of knowing God's will. We 'avail' ourself to the word for this purpose.

 

[eph3Nine]

If we avail ourselves of the Word for the purpose of knowing Gods WILL for us today, then why would you ignore Pauls epistles?

 

[JM]

If we avail ourselves of the Word for the purpose of knowing Gods WILL for us today, then why would you ignore Pauls epistles?

My point exactly!

As for the Bible in translation, I believe in the verbal inspiration of scripture in the orignals, the words in Scripture are given to us by God.

Consistent theology would then view modern translations that use the eclectic (meaning: selecting or employing individual elements from a variety of sources) text and the eclectic text method as invalid along with dynamic (meaning: continuous change, activity, or progress) equivalence (meaning: the state or condition of being equivalent; equality) which offer a 'meaning' as opposed to a translation. The word itself is miss leading, dynamic means always moving/shifting and equivalence means the same.

How can something be both?

For me, the difference is in the mss.

 

[JMWHALEN]

"I believe in the verbal inspiration of scripture in the orignals"
_____________________________________________________
(bold/underline is my emphasis)

Nowhere is this stated in the Holy Bible, i.e., that only the "original autographs" were inspired . The Holy Bible does not mention the "originals", nor does the Holy Bible give them a superior distinction over the copies Timothy had-"...from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,..."(2 Timothy 3:15). Nor does the Holy bible give them a superior distinction over other language scriptures or translations. Nor does the Holy Bible give us superior distinction of the "originals" over the "preserved" or over the possessed scriptures.

"Scripture" is always referred to as copies(check it out-Acts 17:11).

"....that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:..." Deut. 17:18

"And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel." Joshua 8:32

"These are also proverbs of Solomon, which the men of Hezekiah king of Judah copied out." Proverbs 25:1


"Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!" Job 19:23

Implicit in this "originals only"view is the belief that God did not bother to preserve his words in pure form, though some say that the "originals" can be reconstructed by so-called "scholarship." Perhaps it does not occur to those who support this view that without the "original autographs" to compare them to, there is no way to know whether or not the "originals" have been restored.

The "originals" never existed together in a collated 66 book form, and crumpled into dust thousands of years ago. No one alive today has ever seen the "originals", and even if they "appeared" today, how would you know they were the "originals"(rhetorical question)?

Since we no longer have the "originals", and thus, by this view, no translation is inspired, did God preserve inspired scripture or UN-inspired scripture? Is there such a thing as an UN-inspired word of God or scripture ? What happened to the "uncorruptible....word of God, which liveth and abideth forever"(1 Peter 1:23) if it only refers to the originals, which no longer exist?


Did Timothy have the "originals" in 2 Timothy 3:15? Did the eunuch "sitting in his chariot " have the "originals"(Acts 8:27, 28). Did the Lord Jesus Christ read from the "originals" in Luke 6:17? And on and on.....


In Christ and with Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[kenneth558]

I use KJV because I don't believe God would allow His Word to be copyrighted by some for-profit individual or group. There are other public-domain versions, but I haven't concerned myself with comparing them with the KJV. I see no reason to doubt the AV anywhere. But I couldn't answer the poll because I don't think I am dispensational...I don't know what persuasion I am other than a Bible-believer.

 

[JM]

"I believe in the verbal inspiration of scripture in the originals"
_____________________________________________________
(bold/underline is my emphasis)

Nowhere is this stated in the Holy Bible, i.e., that only the "original autographs" were inspired . The Holy Bible does not mention the "originals", nor does the Holy Bible give them a superior distinction over the copies Timothy had-"...from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,..."(2 Timothy 3:15). Nor does the Holy bible give them a superior distinction over other language scriptures or translations. Nor does the Holy Bible give us superior distinction of the "originals" over the "preserved" or over the possessed scriptures.

"Scripture" is always referred to as copies(check it out-Acts 17:11).

"....that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:..." Deut. 17:18

"And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel." Joshua 8:32

"These are also proverbs of Solomon, which the men of Hezekiah king of Judah copied out." Proverbs 25:1


"Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!" Job 19:23

Implicit in this "originals only"view is the belief that God did not bother to preserve his words in pure form, though some say that the "originals" can be reconstructed by so-called "scholarship." Perhaps it does not occur to those who support this view that without the "original autographs" to compare them to, there is no way to know whether or not the "originals" have been restored.

The "originals" never existed together in a collated 66 book form, and crumpled into dust thousands of years ago. No one alive today has ever seen the "originals", and even if they "appeared" today, how would you know they were the "originals"(rhetorical question)?

Since we no longer have the "originals", and thus, by this view, no translation is inspired, did God preserve inspired scripture or UN-inspired scripture? Is there such a thing as an UN-inspired word of God or scripture ? What happened to the "uncorruptible....word of God, which liveth and abideth forever"(1 Peter 1:23) if it only refers to the originals, which no longer exist?


Did Timothy have the "originals" in 2 Timothy 3:15? Did the eunuch "sitting in his chariot " have the "originals"(Acts 8:27, 28). Did the Lord Jesus Christ read from the "originals" in Luke 6:17? And on and on.....


In Christ and with Christ,
John M. Whalen

The point I was trying to make is a simple one, the KJV/AV is the best we've got because the mss behind it are the originals held by the Church for 2000 years.

Would you like to over analyze that little bitty? Maybe if you use the underline feature you can make a point that no one has thus far disputed.

 

[xenia]

There are no original mss of the NT, at least, none that have been found.

 

[eph3Nine]

What difference does it make WHAT translation you are carrying around if you still dont understand what it SAYS?

 

[JM]

There are no original mss of the NT, at least, none that have been found.

I apologize for being unclear (and confussing), you’re correct; we no longer have the originals. The group of mss called the Majority Text are faithful transmissions of God’s Holy Word. This was the conclusion I was brought to while attending St. Nektarios Orthodox Church and I still believe this today.

Peace.

 

[WAB]

My point exactly!

As for the Bible in translation, I believe in the verbal inspiration of scripture in the orignals, the words in Scripture are given to us by God.

Consistent theology would then view modern translations that use the eclectic (meaning: selecting or employing individual elements from a variety of sources) text and the eclectic text method as invalid along with dynamic (meaning: continuous change, activity, or progress) equivalence (meaning: the state or condition of being equivalent; equality) which offer a 'meaning' as opposed to a translation. The word itself is miss leading, dynamic means always moving/shifting and equivalence means the same.

How can something be both?

For me, the difference is in the mss.

Please allow me to correct your definition of "dynamic"...
you will find said definition (along with the definition of "equivalence/equivalency") at the end of the article/paper.


DYNAMIC EQUIVALENCY

(As Found In The Authorized Or KING JAMES VERSION Of The BIBLE)​

Although there are many more instances of what has become known as Dynamic Equivalency in the Scriptures, we will here limit our comparisons to "The Gospel According to St. MATTHEW" as found in the KJV.
Matt.1:23...... "Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
ref. Isaiah 7:14.... "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Matt. 2:6....... "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah; for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel."
ref. Micah 5:2....... "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Matt. 2:18..... "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not."
ref. Jeremiah 31:15.... "Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not."

Matt. 3:3.... "For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."
ref. Isaiah 40:3.... "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

Matt. 4:4..... ""But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
ref. Deuteronomy 8:3....... "And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live."

Matt. 4:10..... "Then said Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."
ref. Deuteronomy 6:13.... "Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name." (note that there has been a change in the New Covenant.
See James 5:12).

Matt. 4:15,16..... "The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat in darkness saw a great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up."
ref. Isaiah 9:1,2...... "Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined."

Matt. 5:38....... "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."
ref. Leviticus 24:20.... "Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again."

Matt. 8:17....... " That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses."
ref. Isaiah 53:4..... "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Matt. 10:3,36..... "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be those of his own household."
ref. Micah 7:6.... "For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man’s enemies are the men of his own house."

Matt. 11:10...... "For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
ref. Malachi 3:1....... "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts."

Matt. 12:18-21..... "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgement to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgement unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."
ref. Isaiah 42:1..... "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my
soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles. (See also Isa. 61:1).

Matt. 13:14,15......... "And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this peoples heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
ref. Isaiah 6:9..... "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not."

Matt. 13:35....... "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."
ref. Psalm 78:2..... "I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old."

Matt. 15:4...... "For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."
ref. Exodus 20:12...... "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee." with..... Exodus 21:17..... "And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

Matt. 15:8,9..... "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
ref. Isaiah 29:13...... "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removedtheir heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"

Matt. 18:16....... "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."
ref. Deuteronomy 19:15...... "One witness shall not rise against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

Matt. 21:5........ "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."
ref. Zechariah 9:9..... "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

Matt. 21:13....... "And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves."
ref. Isaiah 56:7..... "....... for my house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." with..... Jeremiah 7:11.... ""Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the Lord."

Matt. 21:16..... "... And Jesus said unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?"
ref. Psalm 8:2..... "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger."

Matt. 22:32.... "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
ref. Exodus 3:6...... "Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of
Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face;..."

Matt. 22:37...... "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."
ref. Deuteronomy 6:5.... "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (see also Deut. 10:12).

Matt. 26:31..... "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad."
ref. Zechariah 13:7...... "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

Matt. 27:9,10....... "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; And gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord appointed me."
ref. Uncertain in Jeremiah, but see Zechariah 11:13... "And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord."

It must be said that 14 of the 25 scriptures cited above were quoted by the Lord Jesus Christ. Surely if He utilized Dynamic Equivalency, it should not be called part of a conspiracy to corrupt the Word of God.


P.S. Although many commentators have castigated anyone who would dare to enter into the area of "Dynamic Equivalency", and use the term to critique modern bible versions that indeed fall far short of the true Word of God, yet the above would suggest that at the very least they are using the wrong term as well as the wrong approach.

Perhaps a definition of the words DYNAMIC and EQUIVALENCY might be appropriate. "dynamic.... fr. Gk dynamikos powerful.... 1 a: of or relating to physical force or energy b: of or relating to dynamics: ACTIVE 2 a: marked by continuous usu. productive activity or change.... b: marked by energy : FORCEFUL..."

"equivalence... 1 a: the state or property of being equivalent...." i.e. equal.
Both from Webster’s Dictionary.
W.A.B.

 

[JMWHALEN]

"What difference does it make WHAT translation you are carrying around if you still dont understand what it SAYS?"

My comment: I agree, but we must not confuse objective truth with interpretation/illumination. No illumination is profitable if objective truth is, in fact, not objective truth, i.e., it is in error. I understand quite well, for example, what the Koran, Book of Mormon, say. But my understanding of it, or my belief in these supposed "revelations", do not make them true objectively. Belief and understanding the truth are independent from the truth itself.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
(bold/underline is my emphasis)
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field ..." Genesis 3:1

A principle all dispensationalists must/do accept: "Things that differ/are different are not the same". From a logic viewpoint, the law of non- contradiction is appropriate.

1. our faith("in") vs. the Lord Jesus Christ's faith("of")
Galatians 2:16
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." King James Bible

" knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." New King James Version

"know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." NIV
_____________________________
Galatians 2:20
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." King James Bible

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." New King James Version

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." NIV
_____________________________
Galatians 3:22

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." King James Bible

"But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." New King James Version

"But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe." NIV
______________________________
Ephesians 3:12

"In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him." King James Bible

" in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him." New King James Version

"In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence." NIV
________________________________
Philippians 3:9

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" King James Bible

"and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;" New King James Version

"and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith." NIV
___________________________________
Colossians 3:12
"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." King James Bible

"buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." New King James Version

"having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead." NIV
______________________________________________________________________________________________
2. Ephesians 3:6

"That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" King James Bible


"This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus." NIV

In the NIV, the phrase that "the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel": the words "with Israel" are not found in any of the 5000+ manuscripts-nada. One of the very "lynch pins"of a dispensational approach to understanding the Holy Bible, is the premise that there is a clear separation between Israel and the body of Christ=things that differ-scriptures which apply to Israel cannot be applied to the body of Christ in this mystery dispensation. Gentiles are not heirs "together with Israel." The King James Bible and the NIV cannot both be the word of God, if the logic of the law of non-contradiction as a tool, is a presumption in our/any discussion(The KJB and the NIV contradict each other in hundreds of places. I only focus on a dispensational aspect here).
________________________________________________________________________________
3. More than one "gospel"?(not according to the NIV, NASB, and others)

Galatians 2:7

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;" King James Bible


"On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews." NIV

"But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised ." NASB
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4. Romans 3:30
"Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." King James Bible

"since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith." NIV
__________________________________________________
Genesis 3:1-4
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: "

"Yea, hath God said....?"-Did God really say that?=aim is to cast doubt about the objective truth of the word of God.

"And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Notice the LORD God said "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat"(Gen 2:16). Eve deleted "freely."

Notice the LORD God said "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"(Gen.2:17). Eve deleted "surely."

Eve added "which is in the midst of the garden", and "neither shall ye touch it"-the LORD God said no such thing.


"subtil"-add a few words here and there, delete a few words here and there. What is the big deal? They(200 + versions in the last 100 years; one out on average every 6 months) "basically" all say the the same thing! They don"t differ! You are making "too big a deal" of this issue! Words are not that important-it is "God's intent" that is important.="Thus saith the LORD's intent."

What worked quite well for Satan in Genesis, the '"seed plot" of the Holy Bible, still works today. Attack the word of God through doubt, add, delete. We call that corruption, as it is written:

"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.: 2 Cor. 2:17

In a war, the enemy attempts to either cutoff communication , or intercept it and alter it. Satan attempt to prevent man from reading the Holy Bible, through doubt and the "cares of the world"(diversion), or, if this does not succeed, change/alter the communication.


In Christ,
John M. Whalen

PS: All my fellow mid-acts dispensational brothers and sisters in Christ- if you dismiss most of this post, I respectfully, and prayerfully, would ask you to at least study the Ephesians 3:6 passage to see "whether those things were so"(Acts 17:11).

 

[eph3Nine]

I refuse to enter into arguments that obscure the MESSAGE we are told to be ambassadors TO. The KJ argument is one of those debates that should be avoided.

Get back to the MESSAGE.

 

[JMWHALEN]

I refuse to enter into arguments that obscure the MESSAGE we are told to be ambassadors TO. The KJ argument is one of those debates that should be avoided.

Get back to the MESSAGE.

___________________
My first order of business as a Christian will always be: I will proclaim only that "message" that is derived from a "credible witness." If the witness is not credible, then "interpretation"="the MESSAGE", is divorced from objective reality. No interpretation, no "the Message", whether it be dispensationalism or "whatever", is worthwhile, or credible if truth can still be considered truth despite ERRORS. If biblical certainty/assurance are lost, then biblical authority, and its resulting "interpretation"/"the MESSAGE" is impossible. If the biblical text is unreliable, then the Holy Bible's own claims about representing the full and objective truth about God cannot be substantiated or believed. The Holy Bible's authority to rule over us, to call us back to the LORD God, to offer justification and eternal life through the offence of the cross, and the resurrection, and any "interpretive methods", dispensationalism or otherwise, evaporates. And a discussion of the soundness of the dispensational approach to understanding the LORD God's revelation of Himself, and His "blueprint" for all, is mere "going through the motions", "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic", if the source for understanding these objective truths is flawed in any way.

My second order of business, whether I am speaking with a fellow believer, or an unbeliever, is not that we "agree" on anything. I found out, the "hard way", that the principle of right division, and a dispensational approach to understanding/interpreting("the MESSAGE"), will be a minority viewpoint(as is, and will be, Christianity), and most will not "agree" with me in this matter. I expect that-popularity is never, and should never, be the determining factor/the issue in discovering the truth. However, I do not expect fellow believers to agree that the LORD God has made good on His promise to preserve His inspired, without error/perfect word as OBJECTIVE TRUTH. If the Holy Bible is flawed, then it cannot be the final authority it claims, If it is flawed, the Holy Bible may advise, "provide a few pointers", suggest, and encourage, but it cannot require or demand.. If it is flawed, the Holy Bible may teach("doctrine"), may ask you to "study"(2 Tim. 2:15), may ask you to meditate, may give you a "pep talk", may "coach"(instruct), but it cannot dictate.

If the purety, sureness, and perfection of The Holy Bible as a present possession is not worth fighting for, what is? I will "argue" for this,hopefully, until I die, or am "plucked"/"caught up"/"delivered" out of this "present evil world"(Galatians 1:4). And my motivation for doing this? This I do for the glory of God.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[JMWHALEN]

correction:
"I do not expect fellow believers to agree that the LORD God has made good on His promise to preserve His inspired, without error/perfect word as OBJECTIVE TRUTH. If the Holy Bible is flawed, then it cannot be the final authority it claims..."

should read "I do expect"

Oh, well, words don't really matter, do they?

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[eph3Nine]

God has given us His Word....in it is a message...we are ambassadors of that message.

NEXT...... wink

 

[JMWHALEN]

God has given us His Word....in it is a message...we are ambassadors of that message.

NEXT...... wink

____________________________
To "everyone":

And just what is "His word", what is "it", what is our final authority from which we derive our "message" that we are to proclaim to a lost and dying world as ambassadors? Are the following verses of the so-called "His word" NIV to be part of "a" or "the" "message"? Can the NIV be "it", given the following? What is the message of the following verses in the NIV?:

Mt. 17:21,18:11,23:14;/ Mk. 7:16;9:44,46;11:26;15:28/Luke 17:36,23:17/John 5:4/Acts 8:37,15:34,24:7,28:29/Romans 16:24

One may contend that the NIV is "His word", is "it". That may be a legitimate contention. However, it is not a legitimate contention that both the NIV and the King James Bible, for example, are both "His word", are both "it" at the same time, assuming we accept the law of non-contradiction, and that the below verses are part of "His word":

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

"What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." Deuteronomy 12:32

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverbs 30:6

"Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the court of the LORD's house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD's house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word...." Jeremiah 26:2

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:18,19

If all "versions" of "the" Bible are "basically" the same, then no plausible explanation can be given for the preceding verses, the preceding commands/warnings in the Holy Bible-they are in vain, futile, non-sensical, and absolutely meaningless.


No one can contend that both the NIV and the King James Bible are both "His word", are both "it', at the same time, assuming we accept the law of non-contradiction, and assuming we are rational, given the following:

KJB: “...those things which he hath not seen...." (Col.2:18)
NIV: “...great detail about what he has seen...." (Col.2:18)

KJB: “Israel is an empty vine.” (Hos.10:1)
NIV: “Israel was a spreading vine.” (Hos.10:1)

KJB: “...but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.” (Hos.11:12)
NIV: “...Judah is unruly against God, even against the faithful Holy One.” (Hos.11:12)

KJB: “...thought it not robbery to be equal with God....” (Phil 2:6)
NIV: “...did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.” (Phil.2:6)

KJB: “The words of a talebearer are as wounds....” (Prov.26:22)
NIV: "The words of a gossip are like choice morsels...." (Prov.26:22)

KJB: “The north wind driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.” (Prov.25:23)
NIV: “As a north wind brings rain, so a sly tongue brings angry looks.” (Prov.25:23)

KJB: “Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy.....” (Isa.9:3)
NIV: “You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy....” (Isa.9:3)

KJB: “Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow.” (Jer.51:3)
NIV: “Let not the archer string his bow.” (Jer.51:3)

KJB: “His ways are always grievous.” (Psa.10:5)
NIV: “His ways are always prosperous.” (Psa.10:5

KJB: “...is not he thy father that hath bought thee?” (Deut.32:6)
NIV: “...Is he not your Father, your Creator.” (Deut.32:6)

KJB: “And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.” (Isa.16:5)
NIV: “In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it-- one from the house of David-- one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness.” (Isa.16:5)

KJB: “...by profaning the covenant of our fathers?" (Mal.2:10)
NIV: “...by breaking faith with one another?" (Mal.2:10)

KJB: “...but he that is of a perverse heart shall be despised.” (Prov.12:8)
NIV: “...but men with warped minds are despised.” (Prov.12:8)

KJB: “I hate vain thoughts.” (Psa.119:113)
NIV: “I hate double-minded men.” (Psa.119:113)

KJB: “Mercy and truth preserve the king: and his throne is upholden by mercy.” (Prov.20:28)
NIV: “Love and faithfulness keep a king safe; through love his throne is made secure.” (Prov.20:28)


KJB: “Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.” (Psa.119:140)
NIV: “Your promises have been thoroughly tested, and your servant loves them.” (Psa.119:140)

KJB: “A gift is as a precious stone in the eyes of him that hath it: whithersoever it turneth, it prospereth.” (Prov.17:8)
NIV: “A bribe is a charm to the one who gives it; wherever he turns, he succeeds.” (Pro.17:8)

KJB: “He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” (Dan.3:25)
NIV: “He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods." (Dan.3:25)

The preceeding verses do not say the same thing, and contradict each other. If people contend they do,then the English language means nothing, "things that are different are really the same", Bill Clinton was correct("it depends what the meaning of the word is means" ) and we should all "pack it in and go home-class dismissed."

I will not, and cannot, contend for the dispensational principle of "test things that differ"("That ye may approve things that are excellent"-Philippians 1:10), if my authority from which this principle is derived is flawed in any way, and if I am not able to even perceive blatant, noticeable differences in the various "the Bible"'s, and make a judgment between the "real deal" and the counterfeit. Indeed, using a secular principle, the U. S. government officials responsible for identifying legitimate, legal tender from the counterfeit, are commanded to study, to "know" the "real dollar bill", not the counterfeit, so as to have the discerrnment/ability to identify that which is fake.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
"His word"

"Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me..." /" Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God." Psalms 40:7/Hebrews 10:7

"Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them." Isaiah 34:16


Exodus 17:14 "Write this for a memorial in a book"
Exodus 24:7 "And he took the book of the covenant"
Exodus 32:32 "out of thy book which thou hast written"
Deut. 17:18 "write him a copy of this law in a book "
Deut. 28:58 "are written in this book"
Deut. 28:61"written in the book "
Deut. 29:20 "written in this book"
Deut. 29:21 " written in this book "
Deut. 29:27 "written in this book"
Deut. 30:10 "written in this book "
Deut. 31:24 "writing the words of this law in a book"
Deut. 31:26 "this book of the law"
Deut. 28:61 " written in the book "
Joshua 1:8 "This book of the law"
Joshua 8:31 "written in the book"
Joshua 8:34 " is written in the book "
Joshua 23:6 "is written in the book "
Joshua 24:26: "And Joshua wrote these words in the book"
1 Sam. 10:25 "wrote it in a book"
2 Kings 14:6 "written in the book "
2 Kings 22:8: "I have found the book"
2 Kings 22:11 "the book "
2 Kings 22:13 " this book "
2 Kings 23:2 "the book "
2 Kings 23:3 " this book"
2 Kings 23:21 "the book
2 Chron. 17:9 "the book "
2 Chron. 34:14 " a book "
2 Chron. 34:15 "the book "
2 Chron. 34:21 " the book " "this book"
2 Chron. 34:24 "the book "
2 Chron. 34:30 "the book "
2 Chron. 34:31 " this book"
2 Chron. 35:12 "this book"
Ezra 6:18 " the book "
Nehemiah 8:1 "the book"
Nehemiah 8:3 "the book"
Nehemiah 8:5 "the book"
Nehemiah 8:8 "the book"
Nehemiah 8:18 "the book"
Nehemiah 9:3 " the book "
Nehemiah 13:1 " the book "
Isaiah 29:18 "the book"
Is. 30:8: "a book"
Jer. 36:8 " the book "
Jer. 36:18 "the book"
Daniel 12:1"the book"
Daniel 12:4 "the book"
Galatians 3:10 "the book "
Hebrews 9:19 "the book"

Again, I would respectfully pose this question to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ: What "His word" is "it", what book is "it", that we can, and are commanded to, as believers in and on the Lord Jesus Christ, hold in our hand, press to our heart, and with conviction, and without reservation, say "I believe this is the inspired, perfect, pure, sure, right and preserved word of God-this is 'His word'; this is 'it'"? Can we say, with conviction, "I do not doubt it, I do not correct it, I do not criticize it, and nor do I "prefer" it-I believe it, and submit to it as my final authority"?

This is an "intra-dispensational" principle, and a rhetorical question:

"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" Psalms 11:3

The answer is:nothing.

I have witnessed too many debates where believers, when contending for the faith(Jude 3) , were "manhandled" by unbelievers on just this issue, i.e., the glaring contradictions between and/or among the various "versions" of "the" Bible. "the" is singular, is it not, as in "the" book, "a" book, "the" word of God?. Likewise, I have seen the same phenomena occur in debates between dispensationalists and those of the non-dispensational persuasion., i.e., non-dispensationalists will typically quote another "version", such as the NIV, to discount/refute dispensationalism. In both cases, the believer's testimony as a credible witness is compromised, and, I would suggest,outright rejected.


Interestingly enough, the word "dispensation" is not to be found in the NIV(and many other "versions"). And why is that?


"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading." Nehemiah 8:8

We must first identify "the book", before we can read it "distinctly", and give "the sense" to "understand" the reading in "the book"(=the message). We must first identify "the book" that is inspired, and is therefore, by definition, without error, before we can be considered as worthy ambassadors for the message we are to proclaim, and before we can proclaim any message that is to be considered worthy of believing.

How is it that believers can accept the fact that the LORD God, who created the universe, who warms a mother's heart from the smile of her baby, who engineered the greatest miracle ever by the raising of His only begotten Son from the dead, who engineered the second greatest miracle by saving no-good, rotten, scoundrels such as all of us once were, just cannot/will not accept that He can and did preserve His inspired, preserved, without error as He promised? Did He promise this, or not? He "cannot lie"(Titus 1:2), right? God is not "the author of confusion"(1 Cor. 14:33)/contradiction, is He?


I fully understand that this can be, and is, a very "emotionally charged" issue within Christian community of believers, and often be viewed as "divisive" among believers. So be it. By its very nature, the Lord Jesus Christ, and thus Christianity, and truth is divisive. Now that we are saved, all of us understand this doctrine. I would venture to say that as each one of us grow daily in our walk with the LORD God(our sanctification), the divisiveness of both our message and our walk becomes more and more "real to us" and to others, and becomes more and more repugnant to the lost, since we are to the lost "...the savour of death.. "(2 Cor. 2:15). And I would venture to say that those that proclaim the message of "right division" are accused of the same "you are so divisive" charge.. To those who say "you are divisive", I say" Split, split, and keep splitting." What this world needs is not more "popular teaching", but more unpopular preaching, and letting both the light of the without error inspired, preserved word of God, and the the word of truth rightly divided, dispel the darkness and fog(Psalms 119:105).

"Next"? But our priority, and my priority, must be the integrity of the word of God.

"...for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." Psalms 138:2

Now, "Who is on the LORD's side?"(Exodus 32:26)


In Christ and with Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[eph3Nine]

Much division in the body has occurred due to the KJO stand. Its become a divisive and silly issue.

No one is denying that God has left us His Word. I know of people who were saved reading a paraphrase. God is NOT limited. Truth is truth.

Enuff already.