• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

King David was born again

Status
Not open for further replies.

Colossians

Veteran
Aug 20, 2003
1,175
8
✟2,700.00
Faith
There is an erroneous notion going around this area of the forum, that OT saints were not born again.

There are only 2 possible states in a human being:
1. Born again (also known in high-falutin terms as "regenerate")
2. Not born again ("natural man").

One is judged to be born again by whether he is in submission to God, and by his love for God. For as Paul tells us, the non-born-again man (the "natural man") comprehends not the things of the Spirit.
Nicodemus was adjured by Christ to be born again, right then and there, well before the cross. But no such adjuration was given to the disciples: they were already, as Christ put it, "clean by the word I have spoken to you".

One has even said on this site that John the Baptist was not born again. Wonder of wonders!: he who baptised Christ was still the old man, unregenerate.
One can imagine what would have been going through the Lord's mind as he was dunked under the water: "Well John, all this dunking of Jews under the water is all well and good, and you're getting a lot of attention doing it, and even I'm tolerating it right now, but really John, you and I both know, (as I'm about to tell that guy Nicodemus also) that YOU still have to be born again John! Otherwise you can't see the Kingdom of God!"

Well, it looks like John never made it. He was beheaded before he got to be born again - exit the greatest prophet in history from the throne room of heaven. No place in there for 'non-born-againers'!

To love God, is to be born again. And to be born again, is to love God. There is no 'pending' status. Moses, David, Abraham, Esther, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel, Ruth, Naomi, Seth, Noah, Zechariah the prophet, Nathan, Daniel... were all born again.

John the Baptist was too. He showed it: he gave his life for Christ.
 

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Amen and amen, bro! Kind of upsets the theology of many here, but you are absolutely right! We'll see and talk with John the Baptist, David, Abraham, and all the Old Testament saints when we reach our destination and eternal home. I for one am looking forward to meeting them!

Like a famous songwriter (who is a friend of mine) wrote, What A Day that will be!
 
Upvote 0

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Abba said:
Well, if you mean born again by baptism, then no the OT saints werent born again. But does that mean they arent in heaven? No.
Well, Baptismal Regeneration is not taught in the Bible. The thief on the cross is proof enough of that, as is Acts 10 (the conversion of Cornelius and his household). OT saints such as Abraham were justifed by faith, the same as NT Believers. The OT believers didn't have as much revelation of things as NT beliers do, but they were born again, as is evidenced by Jesus' gentle rebuke to Nicodemus that he should know these things.

If you try to make a case for Baptismal Regeneration, it won't stand.
 
Upvote 0

Azaka

Active Member
Jul 1, 2004
91
16
✟291.00
Faith
Christian
I'm going to have to side with Colossians and NBF on this one. I too believe the OT saints were born again. However, my understanding of what Scripture means by the "new birth" (as well as how it speaks of the moral and spiritual condition of unborn and young children) forbids any view that sees John the Baptizer as being born again while still in the womb.

In Christ,
Azaka
 
Upvote 0
A

Abba

Guest
If you try to make a case for Baptismal Regeneration, it won't stand.

Oh really? I really dont want to debate, but all the things ive seen concerning baptismal regeneration are very consistent and convincing. Regeneration is not justification. Regeneration is an act of God. It definitely does "stand"-why dont you show me some scripture to prove me wrong, eh?
 
Upvote 0

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Abba said:
Oh really? I really dont want to debate, but all the things ive seen concerning baptismal regeneration are very consistent and convincing. Regeneration is not justification. Regeneration is an act of God. It definitely does "stand"-why dont you show me some scripture to prove me wrong, eh?
Regeneration is an act of God, that is true. But it is not baptism that confers it, or causes it to happen. As Peter said, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God, a sign and indentification with Christ, made publicly or at least semi-publicly, and act of obedience. Baptism was and is not a uniquely New Testament act, as the Jews knew and practiced baptism before the time of Christ, for ceremonial and other reasons. John promoted baptism as a sign of repentence, a point of turning from sins. With Christ's death, burial and resurrection, it took on new significance, in that it was a type and imitation of those things, signifying a believer's acknowledgement and identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection, which is in actual fact what happens to us when we receive Christ.

God counts the True Believer as actually having died with Christ, actually buried with Him, and actually raised with Him to newness of Life, not by the act of baptism itself, but by faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Baptism is an act of obedience signifying that identification by faith, and the actual working of it by God in the Believer's life, at the point where he believed and received Christ. A believer's baptism is not the point at which he receives Christ, or is born again. The new birth is what allows the new believer to receive Christ and be filled with the Holy Spirit. New Birth = Regeneration, and that is the BEGINNING of conversion, not the end of it. Baptism is a public act signifying that the believer is in fact a true believer, and has received Christ, and His indwelling Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Azaka

Active Member
Jul 1, 2004
91
16
✟291.00
Faith
Christian
Regeneration is an act of God, that is true. But it is not baptism that confers it, or causes it to happen. As Peter said, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God, a sign and indentification with Christ, made publicly or at least semi-publicly, and act of obedience. Baptism was and is not a uniquely New Testament act, as the Jews knew and practiced baptism before the time of Christ, for ceremonial and other reasons. John promoted baptism as a sign of repentence, a point of turning from sins. With Christ's death, burial and resurrection, it took on new significance, in that it was a type and imitation of those things, signifying a believer's acknowledgement and identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection, which is in actual fact what happens to us when we receive Christ.

God counts the True Believer as actually having died with Christ, actually buried with Him, and actually raised with Him to newness of Life, not by the act of baptism itself, but by faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Baptism is an act of obedience signifying that identification by faith, and the actual working of it by God in the Believer's life, at the point where he believed and received Christ. A believer's baptism is not the point at which he receives Christ, or is born again. The new birth is what allows the new believer to receive Christ and be filled with the Holy Spirit. New Birth = Regeneration, and that is the BEGINNING of conversion, not the end of it. Baptism is a public act signifying that the believer is in fact a true believer, and has received Christ, and His indwelling Spirit.
Well said, Nobdysfool. I would only add that, no matter how you define the workings of the New Birth - whether it is executed by God in response to the free choice of the one being convicted by the Holy Spirit (as I believe), or whether it is an operation performed by God on the agent's heart without any regards to their choice (as you believe) - I believe only a moral, rational agent capable of embracing the truths of the Gospel (which would include things such as Christian baptism, etc.), experiences this new birth performed by God. I am not saying the unregenerate are capable of embracing or understanding such truths before they are born again, but I do believe one must be at a certain level of intellectual/rational and even moral maturity (able to recognize good from evil, or what one ought and ought not to do, etc.) so that, after having been born again by God, such truths are able to be embraced and begun to be understood and implemented in their walk of faith. In other words, I do not believe very young children (and especially unborn children) are ever born again by God, since they are not yet at an age where they could embrace the truths that regeneration makes possible for a person, so they can grow in their faith and mature spiritually.

In Christ,
Azaka
 
Upvote 0

Azaka

Active Member
Jul 1, 2004
91
16
✟291.00
Faith
Christian
Ok, here goes. At the risk of sounding like a politician (hopefully I won't be ridiculed too much on this board because of this! ;) ), I'm going to do something I don't normally do: having really put some thought into this whole issue of the new birth and OT saints, I'm going to have to completely reverse my position. While cutting the grass, I realized that my acceptance of the view that the OT saints were reborn was based on what I now believe to be a faulty understanding of what being reborn really means. Understood in the light that I see it now, I believe it is impossible that any of them could have been born again. However, the reasoning that led to this conclusion may be different from how others came to it (or didn't come to it). I will try and explain later. But anyway, as of now, I do not believe any of the OT saints, including John the Baptizer, were ever born again before they died. However, I should clarify that at the resurrection of the dead, I believe they will all be raised as regenerated members of the Body of Christ (since I believe the Church has always consisted of both OT and NT saints).

More to come later, though; I gotta run.

In Christ,
Azaka
 
Upvote 0

Colossians

Veteran
Aug 20, 2003
1,175
8
✟2,700.00
Faith
Baptism is simply an outward sign of what has transpired in the inner man.
Baptism has in fact, in actuality, occured when one accepts Christ as Saviour. In this sense, all in Christ are baptised, by definition, for all have been crucified with Him.

Azaka,
John the Baptist was already regenerate in the womb: that is why the account of his joy of Christ in the womb is given to us.
There is no learning in Christ, if one does not accept obvious implications by inductive principles (joy in Christ is only possible if one is born again - Refer Rom 8), in place of elementary items.
We all know that one has to personally come to Christ by faith. But one must come to understand just why it is that the word "born" is used to indicate regeneration: to indicate passivity in the act: one born has no choice over such an event. It is no different in the spirit realm. That is why the word "born" is used.

The whole account of John, the whole emphasis of it, is that which irresistably relates a man in Christ from the womb. There was no 'altar call' for John at age 10!
He was filled with the Spirit from the womb permanently, not merely for a joy kick or two. And the joy that was mentioned that he had was his own personal joy, not some joy on loan for a minute of two. John, in the womb, was overjoyed at the presence of his Saviour's mother. It was his joy, his own personal joy.

And this is the miraculous element of the spirit: the mind is not primary, the spirit is. Because of this, even Cornelius was born again before Peter arrived. Which is evident in Peter's declaring Cornelius to have been acceptable to God, and one who practiced righteousness. We therefore know that, although Cornelius did not understand much of the gospel, his acceptablity with God could have been based upon none other than the blood of Christ, for such is the only basis, ultimately, for acceptibility with God.
And we know with John, in his epistle, that one who practices righteousness is born of God. What transpired with Cornelius through Peter was therefore not his being made regenerate, but his being baptised in the Spirit, for power and boldness.
 
Upvote 0

Colossians

Veteran
Aug 20, 2003
1,175
8
✟2,700.00
Faith
As reciprocal to my last post (immediately preceding), it is useful to mention that the idea promulgated amongst the modern church of the supposed 'age of accountability', is false.

1 Cor 7 declares that babies born to non-believers are "unclean". Revelation declares that nothing unclean will enter heaven.
The conclusion? Children of non-believers, which die while still in the cot, are on their way to hell.

The understanding of these vitally important things has been lost owing to the understanding that God is Holy having been replaced by the humanistic idea that God is just the epidemy of a nice guy.
 
Upvote 0

Ben johnson

Legend
Site Supporter
Feb 9, 2002
16,916
404
Oklahoma
Visit site
✟99,049.00
Faith
Christian
Baptism is simply an outward sign of what has transpired in the inner man.
Baptism has in fact, in actuality, occured when one accepts Christ as Saviour. In this sense, all in Christ are baptised, by definition, for all have been crucified with Him.
Wow --- we agree! :)
(joy in Christ is only possible if one is born again - Refer Rom 8)
Oops:
"They received the word WITH JOY; but in time of temptation/affliction/persecution, FALL AWAY"...Lk8:13, Mk4:17
But one must come to understand just why it is that the word "born" is used to indicate regeneration: to indicate passivity in the act: one born has no choice over such an event. It is no different in the spirit realm. That is why the word "born" is used.
In Jn3, Jesus speaks of "born from above" ("born again") --- and presents it as very choosable (or rejectable).

Look at Jn1:13 --- the BEGOTENNESS ("born-ness") is "not of human blood nor of human will but OF GOD) --- yet Jn1:12 says "we BECOME His children (join the begottenness) when we BELIEVE and RECEIVE JESUS. Could it be clearer?
The conclusion? Children of non-believers, which die while still in the cot, are on their way to hell.
"Let the children alone and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." matt19:14 I don't think He considers how their parents believe...
 
Upvote 0

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Ben johnson said:
Oops:
"They received the word WITH JOY; but in time of temptation/affliction/persecution, FALL AWAY"...Lk8:13, Mk4:17
In Jn3, Jesus speaks of "born from above" ("born again") --- and presents it as very choosable (or rejectable).
Nope. Man does not choose to be born either the first or second time. The one being born is passive, and does not actively choose to be born. The birth is brought about by forces outside the one being born.

Ben johnson said:
Look at Jn1:13 --- the BEGOTENNESS ("born-ness") is "not of human blood nor of human will but OF GOD) --- yet Jn1:12 says "we BECOME His children (join the begottenness) when we BELIEVE and RECEIVE JESUS. Could it be clearer?
Anything to keep man's decision and active participation in the mix. Did you choose to be begotten by your father? No, you had no choice in the matter. Those who are begotten of God are begotten by His Will, just as scripture states. That we believe is a result of being begotten, not the cause of being begotten.

Ben johnson said:
"Let the children alone and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." matt19:14
Ben johnson said:
I don't think He considers how their parents believe...
A non-sequitor. This verse has nothing to do with the subject.
 
Upvote 0

Ben johnson

Legend
Site Supporter
Feb 9, 2002
16,916
404
Oklahoma
Visit site
✟99,049.00
Faith
Christian
Nope. Man does not choose to be born either the first or second time. The one being born is passive, and does not actively choose to be born. The birth is brought about by forces outside the one being born.
He said "joy in Christ is only possible if one is BORN AGAIN" --- I simply cited those called ROCKY, who HAD JOY by BELIEVING but FELL...

Do you have Scripture that supports "forces outside of the one being born-again"?
Anything to keep man's decision and active participation in the mix. Did you choose to be begotten by your father? No, you had no choice in the matter. Those who are begotten of God are begotten by His Will, just as scripture states. That we believe is a result of being begotten, not the cause of being begotten.
Where does it say "those begotten were begotten by His WILL"? Not in Jn1:12-13; it says, "the BEGOTTENNESS" (the "born-again") is OF GOD; but the RECEIVING of that begottenness is through BELIEF, through RECEIVING JESUS...
 
Upvote 0

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Ben johnson said:
He said "joy in Christ is only possible if one is BORN AGAIN" --- I simply cited those called ROCKY, who HAD JOY by BELIEVING but FELL...
So you don't think it's possible for someone to hear the Gospel and become joyful about the Good news, yet not truly believe and receive Christ? Churches are FILLED with such people! Saving faith is from the heart, not the head. Mental assent will not save anyone!

Ben johnson said:
Do you have Scripture that supports "forces outside of the one being born-again"?
who--not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but--of God were begotten. (Joh 1:13) Young's Literal Translation

Did you choose the day of your own birth? Did you initiate the process of being born? Was it by your own will? Your own decision? The new Birth is like human birth in that it is not by the will or choice of the one being born, but by influence, and action of the One giving birth, in natural birth the mother, and in spiritual birth, God. This is simple logic, Ben. And scripture does not defy logic.

Ben johnson said:
Where does it say "those begotten were begotten by His WILL"? Not in Jn1:12-13; it says, "the BEGOTTENNESS" (the "born-again") is OF GOD; but the RECEIVING of that begottenness is through BELIEF, through RECEIVING JESUS...
but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God--to those believing in his name, who--not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but--of God were begotten. (Joh 1:12-13)

:sigh: Why can't you just read it for what it says, Ben??? The Begotten of God believe because they are begotten, and it is those to whom God gives the authority to become sons of God. Those believing in His Name were (beforehand) begotten, which is the reason they can and do believe in His Name.


The begotten are so by His Will, unless you want to say that God's Will isn't involved in begetting sons and daughters. The reference to God's Will is implied.

Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him: (1Jo 5:1)

Same exact verb structure, Ben. The ones believing were beforehand begotten. Being begotten comes before believing, just as I've been saying all along, and you have been ignoring, denying, and trying to avoid seeing it.

Take off the blinders, Ben.

 
Upvote 0

Azaka

Active Member
Jul 1, 2004
91
16
✟291.00
Faith
Christian
Nope. Man does not choose to be born either the first or second time. The one being born is passive, and does not actively choose to be born. The birth is brought about by forces outside the one being born.
Did you choose the day of your own birth? Did you initiate the process of being born? Was it by your own will? Your own decision? The new Birth is like human birth in that it is not by the will or choice of the one being born, but by influence, and action of the One giving birth, in natural birth the mother, and in spiritual birth, God.
Dude, it's an analogy. You can't take analogies too far, or the primary meaning is lost, and the analogy becomes absurd. Calvinists make things way too complicated here. I mean if you're going to go that far, why don't you go further to remain consistent? For example, because there is a physical gestation period of nine months between physical conception and physical birth, then it must be that there is a corresponding spiritual gestation period of nine months after "spiritual conception!" Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Well, that's how the Calvinist's stretching the analogy to the extreme sounds to myself and others, too.

All "new birth" means to me (based on what Scripture says about it) is the new life we are given when the ultimate intention and preference of our heart is changed from sin and selfishness to love and holiness (when we repent, after having been convicted, enlightened and persuaded by God's Spirit working in us), and when we are washed clean from our sins and God's Spirit comes to dwell within us as adopted sons in Christ. It's about our new status as adopted children of God, and the new relationship we have with him sharing in his everlasting life.

Furthermore, I don't find your exegesis of 1 John 5:1 very convincing at all. John is not revealing that the new birth precedes faith, but is describing one result of faith in Jesus. Far from trying to establish the order of the process of salvation, he's simply stating one of the main points (loving others, keeping Christ's commandments, and believing that Jesus is the Christ) of the theme of his entire first epistle, which is the evidence of one's authentic relationship with God.

I don't think John thought our being born again (our having a new relationship with Christ and being given new life in him as part of this relationship) preceded faith. At the end of his gospel, he says, "And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30-31).

Plus, the NASB translation doesn't seem to support your view: "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."
 
Upvote 0

Azaka

Active Member
Jul 1, 2004
91
16
✟291.00
Faith
Christian
As for John 1:13, I recently found this very interesting (and, I think, very convincing) commentary from a site called the Pristine Faith Restoration Society (look under PFRS Commentary):


[size=-1]The sentence, "born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man," does not refer to salvation but to physical birth. "Born of blood" refers to the ordinary means through which humans are brought into the world — physical birth. The "will of the flesh" refers to sexual desire. The "the will of man" refers to physical sexual intercourse that produces procreation. That is, two people decide to get married, and have children. [/size]

[size=-1]It was not God's sovereignty in unconditional election that John was addressing in this passage at all, nor the lack of man's free choice. It was purely a contrast between the "natural" ("born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man") and the "supernatural" ("but of God").[/size]

[size=-1]The Context[/size]
[size=-1]John 1:6-13[/size]
[size=-1]6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.[/size]
[size=-1]7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.[/size]
[size=-1]8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.[/size]

[size=-1]The above underlined statement flatly contradicts the Calvinist idea that God's purpose is only to save a select few. John says exactly the opposite. John the Baptist came to bear witness to the Logos SO THAT "all men through Him might believe." Not some men, not only the elect, but "all men." There is absolutely no warrent for suggesting that "all men" refers to the elect in this context. That this refers to everyone is proven by the following verse:[/size]

[size=-1]9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.[/size]

[size=-1]Had John said merely "every man" (cf. Heb. 2:9) that would be weighty enough. But, by adding "which cometh into the world" John was clearly indicating EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING THAT COMES INTO THE WORLD BY HUMAN PROCREATION. The phrase, "cometh into the world" can refer only to physical birth, since that is the only way humans come into the world. Every person that is born naturally (of blood, by the will of man, etc.) is "lightened" by the Logos so that "all men through Him might [not shall] believe." The verb "[/size]pisteuswsin[size=-1]" (might believe) is in the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood indicates probability or objective possibility, pointing to the purpose or desire of God, not to the final result. If Calvinism were true, then John should have used the indicative mood, and should have refered only to the elect, not "all men." By using the subjunctive mood, John indicates that all men have the opportunity to believe, but not that all will believe.[/size]

[size=-1]10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.[/size]
[size=-1]11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.[/size]

[size=-1]In verse 11, the words, "He came unto His own," refer to His coming unto His own CREATION (the world - as in the previous verse) not to the Jews. The words "His own" in the first part of verse 11 are in the neuter gender, and refer back to the "world" that was "made by Him." But the words "His own" in the last phrase are in the masculine gender. The proper interpretation is that Jesus came to His own creation (the world made by Him), and His own (people - Jews) received Him not.[/size]

[size=-1]That the Jews did not receive Him indicates an act of their will, that is they REJECTED the "light" given to them, and RESISTED God's grace to them. As Stephen accused the Sanhedrin, "ye do always resist the Holy Ghost." And as Paul said of the Jew in Rom. 2, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God." Yet, these are the same persons whom Paul rhetorically asked, "despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" The point is that those whom Paul said would end up in the wrath of God are the same people God was leading to repentance through His goodness and forebearance! So much for the idea that God calls only the elect![/size]

[size=-1]12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[/size]

[size=-1]Those who "received Him," refers to those who did not resist Him, but submitted to Him. To these people who received Him, through an act of their will, He gave the right to become sons of God. The last phrase proves that salvation comes AFTER believing, and as a RESULT of believing. Even to THEM who believe in His name. We could also say, God gave BELIEVERS the right to become sons of God. [/size]

[size=-1]13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/size]

[size=-1]Our translation of this verse...differs from the NKJV by one crucial word. Whereas most Bibles use the plural, "who were born...", we have the singular, "who was born." The reason for this difference is a variant reading in some of the early manuscripts of John's Gospel. Before examining this variant reading, and its implications, let me first offer our interpretation assuming that the NKJV (plural) reading is what John wrote.[/size]

[size=-1]Verse 9 states clearly that everyone born into the world through human procreation is given the "light" that Christ brings. But, in verse 13, only SOME of those born of the flesh become "sons of God" (those in the previous verse who "received Him" and "believed on His name"). Therefore, when John described this kind of "birth," he indicated that it is "not of blood [through the birth canal], nor the will of the flesh [sexual desire], or of the will of man [the act of intercourse], but of God." That it is according to the "will of God" in no way implies selective election of individuals, but refers to the whole plan of God to redeem mankind through supernatural means. That is, the whole plan of the salvation of mankind is according to the will of God. Even if the plural reading is adopted, this passage does not support Calvinism.[/size]

[size=-1]The Textual Variant[/size]
[size=-1]This verse was cited six times by early Christian writers from the first three centuries. It was cited by Irenaeus, Origen, and Tertullian. In every case, they understood the verse to refer to the birth of Christ, not to believers' "new birth." In fact, Irenaeus cited the verse three times, and in all three passages the point he was making depended on that reading. For example, "... that he is Emmanuel, lest perchance we might consider him as a mere man,: for not by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the will of God, was the Word made flesh; and that we should not imagine that Jesus was one, and Christ another, but should know them to be one and the same."[/size]

[size=-1]It is also weighty evidence that this reading (singular — referring to Christ) is found in both Greek (Irenaeus & Origen) and Latin (Tertullian) writers from the second and early third centuries. Both Greek and Latin copies of John's Gospel were extant at the time. To be found in both Greek and Latin copies in the mid second century indicates a VERY early common source, long before the earliest surviving copy of John was made. These writers' quotations of this verse are at least as old as the earliest Greek manuscripts we have of John's Gospel. That this reading is the earliest, comes from a wide geographical area, and is found in both languages in which John's Gospel had been copied, is reason enough for adopting this reading. But, there is more! [/size]





[size=-1]In his Epistle, The Flesh of Christ, ch. XIX, Tertullian (2nd cent.) wrote that the Valentinian gnostics had altered this verse in some copies to read plural, "who WERE ... born." Tertullian had a lot to say in several passages about the tampering with the text by certain gnostic groups, naming names, and giving examples of corruptions. Tertullian also agreed with our interpretation of the words, "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man," that this refers to physical sexual activity and human procreation. In the following quote from Tertullian, notice it was the Valentinain gnostics whom he charged with this alleged corruption, and the reason why they altered the text — indicating that the "elite elect" thinking was a part of Valentinian Gnosticism.[/size]
[size=-1]"What, then, is the meaning of this passage, "Born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God?" I shall make more use of this passage after I have confuted those who have tampered with it. They maintain that it was written thus (in the plural)" Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God," as if designating those who were before mentioned as "believing in His name," in order to point out the existence of that mysterious seed of the elect and spiritual which they appropriate to themselves. But how can this be, when all who believe in the name of the Lord are, by reason of the common principle of the human race, born of blood, and of the will of the flesh, and of man, as indeed is Valentinus himself? The expression is in the singular number, as referring to the Lord, "He was born of God." And very properly, because Christ is the Word of God, and with the Word the Spirit of God, and by the Spirit the Power of God, and whatsoever else appertains to God. As flesh, however, He is not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of man, because it was by the will of God that the Word was made flesh. To the flesh, indeed, and not to the Word, accrues the denial of the nativity which is natural to us all as men, because it was as flesh that He had thus to be born, and not as the Word. Now, whilst the passage actually denies that He was born of the will of the flesh, how is it that it did not also deny (that He was born) of the substance of the flesh? For it did not disavow the substance of the flesh when it denied His being "born of blood" but only the matter of the seed,' which, as all know, is the warm blood as converted by ebullition into the coagulum of the woman's blood. In the cheese, it is from the coagulation that the milky substance acquires that consistency, which is condensed by infusing the rennet. We thus understand that what is denied is the Lord's birth after sexual intercourse (as is suggested by the phrase, "the will of man and of the flesh"), not His nativity from a woman's womb. Why, too, is it insisted on with such an accumulation of emphasis that He was not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor (of the will) of man, if it were not that His flesh was such that no man could have any doubt on the point of its being born from sexual intercourse? Again, although denying His birth from such cohabitation, the passage did not deny that He was born of real flesh; it rather affirmed this, by the very fact that it did not deny His birth in the flesh in the same way that it denied His birth from sexual intercourse. Pray, tell me, why the Spirit of Gods descended into a woman's womb at all, if He did not do so for the purpose of partaking of flesh from the womb. For He could have become spiritual flesh without such a process, — much more simply, indeed, without the womb than in it. He had no reason for enclosing Himself within one, if He was to bear forth nothing from it. Not without reason, however, did He descend into a womb. Therefore He received (flesh) therefrom; else, if He received nothing therefrom, His descent into it would have been without a reason, especially if He meant to become flesh of that sort which was not derived from a womb, that is to say, a spiritual one."[/size][size=-1] (Tertullian, On the Flesh of Christ, xix)[/size]
[size=-1]The internal evidence also weighs in favor of the singular reading. The statements immediately before and after verse 13 refer to Christ. Literally translated as follows: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in the name of Him who was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (vss. 12-14).[/size]
In Christ,
Azaka
 
Upvote 0

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Azaka said:
Dude, it's an analogy. You can't take analogies too far, or the primary meaning is lost, and the analogy becomes absurd. Calvinists make things way too complicated here. I mean if you're going to go that far, why don't you go further to remain consistent? For example, because there is a physical gestation period of nine months between physical conception and physical birth, then it must be that there is a corresponding spiritual gestation period of nine months after "spiritual conception!" Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Well, that's how the Calvinist's stretching the analogy to the extreme sounds to myself and others, too.
Dude, take a chill pill! I wasn't the one who made the direct connection. But it does serve a useful purpose in that it cannot be denied that the one being born is not the one who makes it happen. That's not a stretch, that's being consistent. As for your trying to take it even farther than I did, there may very well be a period of time in some cases between the New Birth (Regeneration of the heart) and repentance and believing unto salvation. There was in my case, about 3 months.

Azaka said:
All "new birth" means to me (based on what Scripture says about it) is the new life we are given when the ultimate intention and preference of our heart is changed from sin and selfishness to love and holiness (when we repent, after having been convicted, enlightened and persuaded by God's Spirit working in us), and when we are washed clean from our sins and God's Spirit comes to dwell within us as adopted sons in Christ. It's about our new status as adopted children of God, and the new relationship we have with him sharing in his everlasting life.
The New Birth IS Regeneration. It's the same thing. But we didn't change our own hearts, our hearts were changed by God. And our salvation is Union with Christ, not just relationship or fellowship. The Bride is United with her Husband, not just "in a relationship" or His "best friend".

Azaka said:
Furthermore, I don't find your exegesis of 1 John 5:1 very convincing at all. John is not revealing that the new birth precedes faith, but is describing one result of faith in Jesus. Far from trying to establish the order of the process of salvation, he's simply stating one of the main points (loving others, keeping Christ's commandments, and believing that Jesus is the Christ) of the theme of his entire first epistle, which is the evidence of one's authentic relationship with God.

I don't think John thought our being born again (our having a new relationship with Christ and being given new life in him as part of this relationship) preceded faith. At the end of his gospel, he says, "And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30-31).

Plus, the NASB translation doesn't seem to support your view: "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."
That's why it is important to learn and be able to work in the original language, or have access to someone who can. Overall the NASB is a good translation, better than many, but I wouldn't rely on it as my only translation. In this particular case, they have translated it wrongly.

Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him: (1Jo 5:1) Young's Literal Translation

Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been generated from God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves the one who has been born of Him. (1Jo 5:1) Literal Translation of the Holy Bible

Every one believing [or, who is convinced] that Jesus is the Christ [or, the Messiah] has been begotten from God, and every one loving the One having begotten loves also the one having been begotten from [or, by] Him. (1Jo 5:1) Analytical Literal Translation

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves him who has been born of Him. (1Jo 5:1)Modern King James Version

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God, and everyone who loves the parent also loves the child. (1Jo 5:1) International Standard Version

Seems there are a few translations that indicate the begetting was prior to the believing, as I believe is the correct view. While John wasn't specifically addressing the order of salvation, his understanding of it is shown by his wording of his point, and we can therefore see a Truth indicated within another Truth, which is often the case in God's Word.

There is no question that those who believe savingly in Christ have everlasting life, and that they are saved from the Wrath of God. The point of contention is not whether faith is necessary (it is) but what is the ultimate source of that faith? If it is man, if he generates saving faith from his own heart, then he is not depraved, but only sick, and doesn't need a Savior, per se, but only a Helper. However, if it is God who is the ultimate source of saving faith (which He gives to the man for the man to use), then man cannot boast or take credit for anything regarding salvation, and cannot claim that he is saved BECAUSE he believed, but only that he is saved by the Grace of God.

In Hebrews scripture states that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He is the ultimate source of saving faith. It is only man's pride that prevents him from embracing that Truth, and rejoicing in the salvation that is not of himself, but purely and 100% of God, from start to finish. As long as man claims that it is because of his faith that God saved him, he is robbing God of Glory that rightfully belongs to God.


 
Upvote 0

Colossians

Veteran
Aug 20, 2003
1,175
8
✟2,700.00
Faith
The topic is wandering.

The issue of the thread is the fact of the full regeneration of those saints who existed before the cross.

John the Baptist (from the womb) is the most prolific example of one such saint.

King David, he who wrote the Psalms and who declared the second person of God as His Lord ("the Lord said to my Lord, sit down while...") is the most personable example of such a saint.
 
Upvote 0

frost

Active Member
Jun 24, 2003
260
9
Visit site
✟445.00
Faith
Christian
Hi Colossians. I have two questions.

"To love God, is to be born again. And to be born again, is to love God. "

1. Does this include Muslims? I'm sure many Muslims claim to love God.

"1 Cor 7 declares that babies born to non-believers are "unclean". Revelation declares that nothing unclean will enter heaven.
The conclusion? Children of non-believers, which die while still in the cot, are on their way to hell."


2. Are you suggesting that anyone who has parents that aren't believers cannot be saved?

blessings...
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.