King David, Murder, Concubines, etc.

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

In the Bible, King David is said to be a man after God's heart. Yet, David obviously fornicated, as he had numerous wives and concubines. He fathered many, many children out of wedlock. In terms of killing, David seemed to think nothing of it, as he frequently killed other peoples, men, women, and children. He pillaged and looted their possessions.

What I'm getting at. David seems in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus, yet King David claimed to be doing these things for the God of Israel, the same God Jesus claimed He was, since He and the Father are one and the same.

Why is David looked upon in positive eyes if he comitted many, many ungodly acts, all in the name of God?

 

[justified]

The main sin committed by David according to the bible was the murder of Bath-sheba's husband. The concubines and children are simply all part of the ancient near east. Abraham, the first saved person according to Paul, had multiple wives. It was, in fact, the way things were done and need not worry us too much. Standards were increased as time went on.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

The main sin committed by David according to the bible was the murder of Bath-sheba's husband. The concubines and children are simply all part of the ancient near east. Abraham, the first saved person according to Paul, had multiple wives. It was, in fact, the way things were done and need not worry us too much. Standards were increased as time went on.

Since you say this, what's wrong with a man having multiple wives in this day and time? A very bad precedent was was set

 

[justified]

Since you say this, what's wrong with a man having multiple wives in this day and time? A very bad precedent was was set

Or, on the concubines issue, what's the problem with having sex outside of marriage?

Or levirate marriage?

Or or or...

The issue can be answered a lot of ways. My answers in short are: New Testament, and the Church. What the Church says does matter; it's tradition that stems back to Jesus.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

Or, on the concubines issue, what's the problem with having sex outside of marriage?

Or levirate marriage?

Or or or...

The issue can be answered a lot of ways. My answers in short are: New Testament, and the Church. What the Church says does matter; it's tradition that stems back to Jesus.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Certainly, I don't think that a man should have multiple wives, as that is a form of adultery. Furthermore, having concubines, by and large, is nothing more than having sex slaves, aka: bed buddies.

My argument was with David. How can he be "a man after God's own heart", when he didn't seem to live a moral life. The man seemed to sin more than most people in the church today. What was so "holy" about him. If you ask me, based upon scripture, David seemed like a brutal savage, content on fornicating and murdering innocent people. I cannot understand how killing and looting is godly. It is NOT.

 

[justified]

You are mixing and matching parts of scripture. Morality, if we take every part of scripture as insipired in its own right, is contextual.

What David did was right for his time, and as far as God had revealed to the Hebrews in that period. Furthermore, he had in fact a mandate to wipe out the Philistines and the Canaanites and take the land: this was his instruction from God, supposedly.

If you want to take the NT as inspired, you must do so with the Old.

An excellent book, written by an excellent, yet readable, scholar is John Bright's The Authority of the Old Testament. It's cheap; order it from half.com or christianbook.com and give it a whirl. I've read a lot of scholarly literature, and it's still one of my most valuable reads.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

You are mixing and matching parts of scripture. Morality, if we take every part of scripture as insipired in its own right, is contextual.

What David did was right for his time, and as far as God had revealed to the Hebrews in that period. Furthermore, he had in fact a mandate to wipe out the Philistines and the Canaanites and take the land: this was his instruction from God, supposedly.

If you want to take the NT as inspired, you must do so with the Old.

An excellent book, written by an excellent, yet readable, scholar is John Bright's The Authority of the Old Testament. It's cheap; order it from half.com or christianbook.com and give it a whirl. I've read a lot of scholarly literature, and it's still one of my most valuable reads.

Contextual? Even the old Testament says "thou shalt not kill". Yet, when David goes in to Phillistine cities and kills everyone, children included, doesn't that go against the commandments of God, given by Moses? I would think that it does.

So if I, or you, were to kill everyone in sight, because God told me to do so, meanwhile raking in all the spoils, and stealing, that'd be okay?

As far as I can tell. David was a 1) murderer, 2) adulterer, 3) coveter, and 4) thief.

You can't sugar coat it at all. That's what he did, and that is what the Bible says that he did.

Yet, Jesus later came, and he completely stood in opposition to the things that David participated in.

 

[woobadooba]

Contextual? Even the old Testament says "thou shalt not kill". Yet, when David goes in to Phillistine cities and kills everyone, children included, doesn't that go against the commandments of God, given by Moses? I would think that it does.

So if I, or you, were to kill everyone in sight, because God told me to do so, meanwhile raking in all the spoils, and stealing, that'd be okay?

As far as I can tell. David was a 1) murderer, 2) adulterer, 3) coveter, and 4) thief.

You can't sugar coat it at all. That's what he did, and that is what the Bible says that he did.

Yet, Jesus later came, and he completely stood in opposition to the things that David participated in.

Do you want an answer to your question or do you just want to make a point?

It seems that you don't want answers, but that you are just looking for an excuse to condemn sinners, and criticize God for looking upon them with grace!

Here's your answer: God does not see us for what we are, but for what we can, and will become.

 

[justified]

Contextual? Even the old Testament says "thou shalt not kill". Yet, when David goes in to Phillistine cities and kills everyone, children included, doesn't that go against the commandments of God, given by Moses? I would think that it does.

Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 say "do no murder" not "do not kill." At least in Hebrew. Some older english translations didn't know the difference.

As far as I can tell. David was a 1) murderer, 2) adulterer, 3) coveter, and 4) thief.

Well he was all of these and worse. But these all have to do with Bath-Sheba and nothing to do with his military campaigns.

We don't have to "like" what David did. And are definitely not to repeat it. And Jesus did stand against it, and would have looked down upon it. But you have to get your head out of your hole and see past your own shortsightedness. We learn more about what God wants as time goes on; David was doing what God wanted before the "peace ethic" was established. David was told to kill pillage destroy (including the spoils) and that's what he did.

 

[A New Dawn]

MOD HAT ON!

There are some posts in this thread that have gotten into a discussion of polygamy, which is not allowed in this forum. Please refer back to the OP to see what teh topic is and refrain from discussing polygamy. If you choose to continue to discuss it in this thread, it will be moved to the Christian Philosophy & Ethics forum.

MOD HAT OFF!

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

Why is it not allowed to discuss? Clearly it is part of the Bible. As it is part of the Bible, isn't it open for discussion in a Bible study forum? It clearly doesn't make sense. There is nothing wrong with discussing what is in the word and any questions that may be generated. This type of censorship, completely unreasonable in my opinion, is bound to turn people off to the Gospel.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

If you want to move the thread to Christian philosophy and Ethics, then go ahead. Otherwise, I'll simply recreate another.

 

[A New Dawn]

Why is it not allowed to discuss? Clearly it is part of the Bible. As it is part of the Bible, isn't it open for discussion in a Bible study forum? It clearly doesn't make sense. There is nothing wrong with discussing what is in the word and any questions that may be generated. This type of censorship, completely unreasonable in my opinion, is bound to turn people off to the Gospel.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

If you want to move the thread to Christian philosophy and Ethics, then go ahead. Otherwise, I'll simply recreate another.

It is not allowed to be discussed in this forum. You can discuss it in CP&E. If your thread is specifically about polygamy, I will move it, but I got from the OP that polygamy was just one of many sins that David committed, and yet was still seen as a Godly man, and you wanted to discuss that.

I am happy to see where the thread goes from here with the Mod Hat in place.

 

[justified]

You guys realise the mod-hat theme is really annoying, right?

Anyways.

Georgia guy -- are you satisfied with my answers or what?

 

[Maccie]

The Bible is full of people who sin. People like you and me. Not everyone in the Bible is a Saint. Its true to life.

The Historical books describe a small, Bronze-age band of people fighting their way into a land they believed God had promised them. Not unnaturally, the other tribes that inhabited that land were not going to roll over and let others have that land. Hence the fighting, killing etc.

However, God wanted his chosen people to be pure, and therefore it was necessary that other, pagan, tribes were drived right out, so that the hebrews could not intermarry. You will recall there was a lot of hassle over this when Nehemiah came back to Jerusalem, and found some Jews had foreign wives.

The fact that people have been given laws to live by unfortunately does not guarantee that they will live by them. Human nature does not change.

 

[jon914]

In the Bible, King David is said to be a man after God's heart. Yet, David obviously fornicated, as he had numerous wives and concubines. He fathered many, many children out of wedlock. In terms of killing, David seemed to think nothing of it, as he frequently killed other peoples, men, women, and children. He pillaged and looted their possessions.

What I'm getting at. David seems in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus, yet King David claimed to be doing these things for the God of Israel, the same God Jesus claimed He was, since He and the Father are one and the same.

Why is David looked upon in positive eyes if he comitted many, many ungodly acts, all in the name of God?

This may come as a surprize, but God doesn't look at me as you do. God looks at the Heart of man and can say to David you are a man after my own heart.
David broke every commandment and still was loved by God. Something to think about.
Moses killed and had a wild temper, but God said the Moses was the most humble man he had known.

There was only one person said to have love God with all his heart and soul and might, but you will have to find him.

The point is the Law which we carry around in our mind and judges other by it. Or we judge our selfs by the law. We didn't kill as David and Moses, does not God Love us as he did them?

The ten commandment were given to show how you fall short of pleasing God, but that he still loves you and died for you. What you are asking is how could God love David more them me. Maybe he does.

John914

 

[justified]

The Historical books describe a small, Bronze-age band of people fighting their way into a land they believed God had promised them. Not unnaturally, the other tribes that inhabited that land were not going to roll over and let others have that land. Hence the fighting, killing etc.

I think you mean Iron Age, but other than that, nice post.

 

[Maccie]

think you mean Iron Age, but other than that, nice post.

Depends how far back you go!

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

This may come as a surprize, but God doesn't look at me as you do. God looks at the Heart of man and can say to David you are a man after my own heart.
David broke every commandment and still was loved by God. Something to think about.
Moses killed and had a wild temper, but God said the Moses was the most humble man he had known.

There was only one person said to have love God with all his heart and soul and might, but you will have to find him.

The point is the Law which we carry around in our mind and judges other by it. Or we judge our selfs by the law. We didn't kill as David and Moses, does not God Love us as he did them?

The ten commandment were given to show how you fall short of pleasing God, but that he still loves you and died for you. What you are asking is how could God love David more them me. Maybe he does.

John914

I never was trying to compare myself with David. What I was stating was that if David were living in contempoary times, he'd be arrested on war crimes, or he'd be in jail for adultery. Sure, God loves us all, but that's not the point. David, in Jewish society, is held in a high and lofty position. Yet, he killed children in cold blood. He went in and killed other people because he believed that God told him to do it. How did he know that God told him to do it? Couldn't he could have been merely thinking this, or using it as an excuse? I'm not refuting the Word of God, and I can believe that God can use war for His purposes, but why? There were other unsettled areas that the Israelis could have settled, given the fact that distance wasn't a matter, as Moses and his people roamed for forty years into the promised-land, circling the same place many times.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think you mean Iron Age, but other than that, nice post.

I think bronze age and iron age generally apply to societies and cultures, not strictly to time periods. IIRC from Numbers, Joshua and Judges, Israel at this time was technologically a bronze age culture, while some of their enemies were technologically iron age cultures.

 

[justified]

I think bronze age and iron age generally apply to societies and cultures, not strictly to time periods. IIRC from Numbers, Joshua and Judges, Israel at this time was technologically a bronze age culture, while some of their enemies were technologically iron age cultures.

I know what you mean, as there is little evidence of inland iron workings (and frankly, not as much for coastal as we might expect, either). However, there is a technical break that we use for absolute chronology when dealing with "ages" though it is often debated. And when we refer to the period, that is what I mean when I say "iron age." As knitted society, Levantine Israel was such only in the Iron Age period and beyond.