Kim Davis

[HonestTruth]

double standards, much ?

 

[Kristos]

I don't know, I guess this marriage thing is not for me. How it is that no one has spoken out against government encroachment on this is beyond me. How in good concious a couple entangles themselves voluntarily in such a creepy system because they need validation is beyond me. Forget about gay marriages which is the pinnacle of absurdity to begin with, the entire system is something based out of a dystopian novel.

This made me LOL - in a bad way though - because I see your point

Could not the same results be achieved by a few legal documents - power of attorney, will, etc...so you're right - why would anyone willing subject themselves to the "states" law regarding marriage - and the potential dissolution thereof?

 

[ArmyMatt]

double standards, much ?

yep, what's your point (aside from liberal politics)?

 

[rusmeister]

She is not doing anything that is of any significance on any scale but her own. This quote/unquote "Paying the price" is the most ridiculous argument that I have ever heard about people who have placed themselves in a predicament that has brought her into direct conflict with her faith. She simply refused to do what her job entails and that is no sacrifice because she is still getting paid while she still holds the office. It doesn't matter if she sets in jail or not.

This is like saying that I have done something significant if I worked at the service desk and refused to rent a room to a couple I didn't like and sat my rear end in a closet where I was allowed to bath, take food and water that was brought to me and was allowed to use the phone.

This women is on paid vacation in a room that she can't leave and people are praising her for it as if she is was actually being burdened by this. Have you ever been in jail? I have and it's a cake walk. I'm also sure, because of the media that she is getting treated far, far better than anyone else in that jail.

The main thing is that when she gets out the same stipulations will be one her, so she gains nothing from doing this and looses nothing because she still remains a paid employee of the state.

I don't praise her or denigrate her for what she is or is not doing, I just think that if she wanted to make a stand that would be a sacrifice to her faith, she would resign her position. If not then imo she is grandstanding for the accolades of the public that's applauding her.

Hi, AHH,
Are you Orthodox? I ask because this is TAW, the Orthodox congregational sub-forum, and I've never "met" you before.

I will say that I HAVE been a victim of unjust arrest, and was stripped naked and robbed by the police. As a result, I do have compassion for people in prison, and don't think it, or write it off as, grandstanding.

 

[dzheremi]

Well, I'm reading your words as

Yes, this seems to be a persistent problem of yours...

"We ought to denigrate her! She should have done something else! She's just a publicity hog who gives Christians a bad name!"

I don't recall saying we should denigrate her at all. Or that she was a publicity hog. I do think that rallying around her gives Christianity a bad name, but that's no more her fault than the fact that some Christians rally around certain political figures gives Christianity a partisan political hue in many peoples' minds. What I have been writing in this thread is that we should be smarter than to embrace anyone who stands up against gay marriage as the Christian cause celebre bar none, as though this mitigates the negative effects of associating ourselves and our churches with the latest media circus that helps to paint all Christians, and hence Christianity itself, as hateful and determined to politically dominate the country and force others to adhere to very selective understandings about relationships and marriage that may run contrary to what our churches actually teach in basically every other major way other than being anti-gay marriage (sorta like the picture earlier in the thread that points out that prominent anti-gay marriage folks don't seem to care for much else regarding the sanctity of marriage, so long as it's not gay; just don't be gay, and you're good enough).

For my part, I'm not saying that she's a martyr unto death, or even torture, nor that she is defending Orthodoxy or anything like that. If you would acknowledge that she is trying to do something right in her life, and paying a price for it, and doing it for Christ's sake (even though mistaken in your estimate) I wouldn't see what I do see in your overall message.

When have I said that she wasn't trying to do the right thing? I believe I wrote in another post in this thread that what is needed is that we go beyond the kernel of truth this lady is already embracing (that homosexual marriage is wrong and unacceptable) so as to make a larger point about why it is wrong, what our faith says about marriage in terms of specific differences between the Orthodox view and Mrs. Davis' evangelical view, etc. How you got "she isn't trying to do the right thing" out of that is beyond me. I'm not against her because I think gay marriage is right. I'm against her because I don't see what she is doing as good, on balance with what we could and should be doing in lieu of the latest Evangelical moral outrage that is about an inch deep and a mile wide, as far as concerns its roots in the Christian tradition concerning matters of anthropology, matrimony, sacramentality, and all of the other issues that are obviously connected to the question of why it is that we do not support gay marriage in the first place.

You'll notice I brought up Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon as one example of someone in your church who has made the exact same move as she has (not signing marriage certificates sought out by people in his church) who I support. So obviously if he's doing the same thing and I support it, it is silly to persist in saying that I am against that action. I am against Christians rallying around Mrs. Davis uncritically because we're apparently gullible enough to take a simple-minded, single issue approach to our religion and the way it ought to interact with society (what I termed earlier 'wedge issue religion'), but again, that is not really Mrs. Davis' fault in any kind of personal sense. Before her it was that Indiana pizza maker or whoever.

 

[buzuxi02]

This made me a bad way though - because I see your point

Could not the same results be achieved by a few legal documents - power of attorney, will, etc...so you're right - why would anyone willing subject themselves to the "states" law regarding marriage - and the disolution thereof?

When I was in Greece I was speaking to my cousin's wife who is Albanian. She made a passing comment on how things were horrible under Enver Hoxca ( longtime communist leader of albania). That he made an attempt to "regulate" romance. I found the comment funny but didnt press further. Well thats exactly what these civil unions are. We dont have to find obscure totalitarian leaders looking to control you, we have them already.

The U.S. Supreme Court has already defined marriage as a secular social ritual akin to a girl's sweet 16 party. They have rejected any argument that secular marriage is for family formation and procreation. Basically under this system my Mom would have never been born, instead my grandpa would have been thrown in prison for statutory rape as he was like 20 and my grandma was about 15.
As you can see they regulate romance literally, as they have redefined the civil union as fornication under consent of the state. Why any christian would want to support this dystopian ideal is beyond me. I guess the couples shacking up together were ahead of their time. They too rejected official coupling as the social structure for procreation but a cheap form of validation for their love, today society has agreed with them, that these government sponsored civil unions is just an excuse to throw a sweet 16 party.

 

[HonestTruth]

yep, what's your point (aside from liberal politics)?

jus' revealing the TRUTH

if that's "liberal" then so be it

 

[rusmeister]

I guess my own thought is that I don't know who here has ever "rallied around her" or seen her as a "cause celebre bar none". For my part, I see a growing string of - so far heterodox - Christians being punished for opposing this immoral tidal wave or simply saying it's all wrong. I wouldn't single out Davis. Heck, the main thing I wanted to say here is that persecution is going to come our way sooner or later, and that if we act sooner rather than later it may mitigate that persecution, and in response I got a flurry of denials that there is any persecution worth noticing. I think it all worth noticing and being concerned about, from Catholic Charities Adoption Services in Boston up to the Davis affair, and was shocked to find Orthodox Christians saying that we should do nothing, and implying that Davis brought her problems on herself. I think it not too late to act, and I don't think resistance to be "grandstanding" or wrong.

 

[rusmeister]

Given that it appears there are a significant number of non-Orthodox members posting here, and the general disagreement, I think the thread ought to be moved to St Justin's.

 

[Kristos]

jus' revealing the TRUTH

if that's "liberal" then so be it

Don't think so - simply using the term "marriage equality" obfuscates truth. Pointing out that someone else is a hypocrite reveals nothing about truth, except perhaps, that we are all hypocrites of one kind or another.

 

[buzuxi02]

Rus,

Orthodox christians are the worse, atleast here in the west they are. No Orthodox bishop has ever complained in New York State that Orthodox clergy areforbidden from officiating their own service without a NYS marriage license.

No Orthodox (or roman catholic) conplained when NYS brought to the floor the vote that passed gay marriage intentionally on that day because the roman bishops of NY were out of state on ecclesial meetings and never saw it coming. In fact it was the highest ranking republican in NYS, an Orthodox christian and benefactor of GOARCH that allowed the secret vote to take place after assuring them it was not on the agenda.
From the heirarchy to the laity, we are all useless lukewarm christians lusting after secularism.

 

[All4Christ]

You are right to point that out, sometimes I'll carelessly use a term in a sentence and forget to specify. I think I may have lost myself a bit in expressing a sense of division from what I had read. This namely: "since this is not an Evangelical or Roman Catholic board, so such things ought not be indicative of the mindset around here, how the Eastern Orthodox who have supported this woman in this thread or elsewhere feel about these kinds of justifications given for the behavior of Mrs. Davis and similar people."

If you feel like elaborating privately (to not go off-topic) I am grateful. My understanding, to summarize crudely is: evangelist - shares; evangelical - receives.

I will PM you about it, although it may be after my upcoming vacation (we are going for a week long vacation finally!)

I'd be happy to explain our viewpoint on the matter (to the best of my ability). Also, if you want input from multiple people here, feel free to start a different thread as well I'll PM you as soon as I can.

 

[seekingsolace]

I will PM you about it, although it may be after my upcoming vacation (we are going for a week long vacation finally!)

I'd be happy to explain our viewpoint on the matter (to the best of my ability). Also, if you want input from multiple people here, feel free to start a different thread as well I'll PM you as soon as I can.

Much appreciated

Enjoy your vacation! no rush at all.

 

[dzheremi]

I guess my own thought is that I don't know who here has ever "rallied around her" or seen her as a "cause celebre bar none". For my part, I see a growing string of - so far heterodox - Christians being punished for opposing this immoral tidal wave or simply saying it's all wrong. I wouldn't single out Davis. Heck, the main thing I wanted to say here is that persecution is going to come our way sooner or later, and that if we act sooner rather than later it may mitigate that persecution, and in response I got a flurry of denials that there is any persecution worth noticing. I think it all worth noticing and being concerned about, from Catholic Charities Adoption Services in Boston up to the Davis affair, and was shocked to find Orthodox Christians saying that we should do nothing, and implying that Davis brought her problems on herself. I think it not too late to act, and I don't think resistance to be "grandstanding" or wrong.

And that's all fine by me. Though I took it as a given that some Orthodox are embracing her because that's what the OP says he is seeing. I don't personally know what any EO are doing, nor am I terribly invested in that for obvious reasons. I only ever posted here in the first place to show that she didn't do anything that people who actually in your own church haven't already done, so it seems weird that any EO would support her when there are people among your own churchmen who have done the same thing and not gotten 1/100th of the notice, and what's more these people get their responses to gay marriage right for the right reasons according to your own confession. (Whereas this lady has affirmed one little bit of a much larger picture, and some people seem to be therefore taking support for her to be "the Christian thing to do"; I don't see EO or any other traditional Christians doing that in any other aspect of political life. I don't recall large pushes among traditional Christians to vote for Obama because of his attempts to expand the social safety net and care for the poor, in light of the fact that a vote for him would also mean a vote for abortion, gay marriage, etc. -- yet of course nobody would deny that our faith indeed commands us to care for the poor. Christianity simply cannot be picked apart like that. You and I both know it is not that simple.)

 

[GregConstantine]

"Well, I'm reading your words as"

The crux of the problem.

"Though I took it as a given that some Orthodox are embracing her because that's what the OP says he is seeing."

Various people I know who are Orthodox on FB are doing this, no one in any official capacity has done this.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, that's probably a good clarification to make at this point. Thank you, GregConstantine. It doesn't seem like Christianity and Facebook mix very well.

 

[AHH who-stole-my-name]

Hi, AHH,
Are you Orthodox? I ask because this is TAW, the Orthodox congregational sub-forum, and I've never "met" you before.

I will say that I HAVE been a victim of unjust arrest, and was stripped naked and robbed by the police. As a result, I do have compassion for people in prison, and don't think it, or write it off as, grandstanding.

You know screw this. People want to have their little sanctuary's in which to gripe about why the world is the way it is they can have it. God gave us two ears to hear with and only one mouth to talk through and if the reason behind that remarkably wison move has escaped anyone here It was not so people can hold up in one sectioned off area and discuss issues with people who think alike.

I'm sorry that I inadvertently intervened in on you. I'm used to a forum where people are free to discuss things openly so that they can actually be resolved. I kind of thought that was what debate was about. Go ahead and ban me. I want nothing to do with a place that practices religious Jim Crow laws.

 

[dzheremi]

You're in one of the confessional forums. It's a perfectly fine question to ask, since you're new here. As I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong, EO posters) all may post here so long as they do not attempt to teach against the faith represented by the particular forum that they are on. It didn't really seem like Rus was accusing you of doing that, so this kind of reaction is a little...strong.

 

[ArmyMatt]

jus' revealing the TRUTH

if that's "liberal" then so be it

what does Republican hypocrisy have to do with this thread?

 

[rusmeister]

"Well, I'm reading your words as"

The crux of the problem.

"Though I took it as a given that some Orthodox are embracing her because that's what the OP says he is seeing."

Various people I know who are Orthodox on FB are doing this, no one in any official capacity has done this.

Greg, I'm feeding back what I understand. That hopefully helps toward mutual understanding, and can work toward mutual understanding. Responding without feeding back what you understand the other person to be saying is a much bigger problem in communication.