Killing

[d0c markus]

The past couple weeks i have been doing some evangelistic ministry at FT. Leonard Wood Army Base, basically we do an hour long service for new recruits, and anyways i was talking to a guy who dedicated his life to christ tonight and was able to talk with him for about half hour till his drill sgt came in.

He asked me well, what if i kill someone? What does God think about that. It caught me off guard a bit and i didnt really know what to say except in the bible God uses armies to destroy other nations sometimes, and that technically its not murder. Then i told him to talk to his chaplain.

Next week, i'd like to be a little more equipped to answer that, what do you guys think/ or what would you say?

pray for the guys at ft. wood 37 dedicated thier lives to christ tonight, and being in boot camp it could be a bit rough on thier new faith.

 

[ydouxist]

Tell him to watch Sgt York. It's an old movie but it's a true story.

I think Gregory Peck plays the part of Sgt York.

 

[d0c markus]

i would but unfortunatley we only do new recruits, i will probably never see him again. unfortunately.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Well first you can simply have the definition of killing, and murder. When defending the cause of a nation and doing it under order of the higher ups you are not murdering peope out of malice or hatred of the people, but out of defense and protection of your own country. If anyone is responsible for that it is those that send the charge order.

Murder:1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.
Kill: to deprive one of life.

Though these are synonyms in the dictionary they imply two different things. Notice the especially part on the end of the defintion of murder. The malice and forethought is important, especially to the soldiers you will be talking to. They do enter teh battlefield with the preconception that they MAY HAVE to take someone's life, BUT they are also USUALLY given orders to not fire unles fired upon. This implies that if they approach the enemy they should give them a chance to surrender. They do not hate the particular enemy of which they are firing at, but the cause for which they are TOLD they are fighting. A lot of people would bring up the Eccliastical argument of there being a time for everything, and I believe there is, but that may not help the soldiers. I would simply distinguish between murder and killing and make it known that there is a difference.

Hope this helps.

Blessings,

FOMWatts<><

 

[clinzey]

The Bible seems to differentiate between individual killing (murder, vigilantism) and societal killing (war, punishment for crime). It would seem to me that God grants the society privelges of carrying out certain acts for the good of all that individuals are not granted.

 

[12volt_man]

I would explain to him that the Bible differentiates from different kinds of killing.

Where the Bible condemns killing, as in "thou shalt not kill", the word translated is always ratsach, which means, specifically to murder. We never see that word used when referring to killing an enemy in battle, self defence or capital punishment.

I would also remind him that there are many instances in which God ordains killing. The most obvious NT example is found in Romans where it talks about "bearing the sword to punish evildoers".

 

[d0c markus]

hmm. post the whole verse if ya could? thanks

 

[12volt_man]

hmm. post the whole verse if ya could? thanks

Well, specifically I was thinking of the first couplf of verses of Romans 13.

Here's something else that might help you. It's not exactly what you're looking for, but it might give you some ideas how to handle something like this next time.

Charles Stanley gave two messages right after the war started. They are for your consideration:

Ecclesiastes 3:8 states that there is a "time for war and a time for peace." In these times of warfare, we often ask, "How should we respond? What should be our attitude?" We will find biblical answers for these questions when we explore the ultimate issue: What does the Word of God say about warfare?

When a nation goes to war, God’s people need to fully understand their heavenly Father’s viewpoint about this matter. Naturally, God is not excited about war. He does not enjoy bloodshed and vengeance. However, He is dealing with a world of people who have a fallen nature—sinful, wicked and vile. Romans 3:10-11,15-17 describes mankind without God: "…there is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God. . . . Their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace they have not known."

God battles with people who oppose Him, who fight against Him and His followers. So, even though He hates war, God is not against it. Throughout the Old Testament, there are examples of God using warfare to carry out His plans, to punish the wicked and preserve His people (Deut. 9:4-6; Deut. 20; Jer. 5; Numbers 33:55-56). You may think, "How could God do that?" He says in Isaiah 55:9, "My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts are higher than your thoughts." God has divine reasons for choosing to use war as a vehicle to accomplish His will.

In Scripture, God clearly establishes the government’s responsibilities and authority over us, as well. In Romans 13:1 and 4, Paul writes, "every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. . .for it [the government] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil."

The government is ordained by God with the right to promote good and restrain evil. This includes wickedness that exists within the nation, as well as any wicked persons or countries that threaten foreign nations. Obviously, there are times when a country should not go to war; but there are also times when, if a nation does not do so, they suffer the consequences. Therefore, a government has biblical grounds to go to war in the nation’s defense or to liberate others in the world who are enslaved.

You may think, "Well, how do we reconcile that with what Jesus said about loving our enemies and turning the other cheek?" (Luke 6:27-30) In that passage, Jesus was speaking to us as individuals. If someone treats us badly, we should love him anyway. We can pray for our enemies, and do good to those who hate us. The way someone treats an individual is one thing; the way he treats an entire nation is a completely different issue. The Bible teaches that it is the responsibility of the government’s leaders to protect the nation against those who would destroy it.

The Bible also instructs citizens in the proper way to respond when their country goes to war. For example, it is a violation of the Word of God to refuse to defend your country if ordered. Recall Romans 13:1-2: "every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God. . .Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves." According to this verse, we’re to be submissive to the laws of the land. The only reason we have for disobeying the government is if it requires us to behave in a way that clearly violates some specific verse or command of God (Acts 5:27-32).

Someone might say, "But I can’t go to war because shooting the enemy would be murder, and the Bible says ‘you shall not murder’"(Exodus 20:13). Actually, when a man in combat shoots his enemy under the command of the government, without personal hatred, he is not committing murder. Instead, he is simply being obedient to the purpose for which he is fighting. To commit murder, a person must have vengeance and hatred against another. Many men have died on the battlefield without animosity toward anyone--they were fighting for a cause, defending or freeing their land. Therefore, if called, it is a citizen’s national and biblical responsibility to defend his country.

Even if we do not actually participate in the fighting, we are also called to create unity and harmony within the country. We need to support whatever decisions our nation makes, as long as they do not directly violate the Word of God. How can we justify the protests and marches against war? I understand that, in America, for example, we have a right to express our different opinions. However, there comes a time when our personal opinion is not a priority. The only reason we have the freedom to protest in this country is because thousands were willing to die for that liberty in the past.

Instead of resisting, we should offer to serve the war effort in any way possible during this time, especially by encouraging and helping the families of our soldiers. And the most important and powerful thing we can do for our nation is pray. Pray for our President, leaders, military, and even our enemies. God honors the prayers of His children and expects us to support those in authority.

Despite the many different opinions and philosophies about war, the most important consideration is God’s viewpoint. Throughout Scripture there is evidence that God favors war for divine reasons and sometimes uses it to accomplish His will. He has also given governments and their citizens very specific responsibilities in regards to this matter. This is a frightening time for all of the world’s citizens, but it is also a time for God’s people to rise up as a unified body against the global threat of evil and terror. I challenge you, as a child of God, to respond to this conflict as He desires: with an attitude of prayer, submission, and an unwavering dependence upon your heavenly Father.

—Charles F. Stanley



God never promised that life would always be convenient or comfortable. Nor did He say that we would avoid all danger, suffering, or loss. However, He did promise to be with us through whatever we face in life. And, in times of trouble, we each have a specific God-given duty: prayer.

First Pray to God

As believers, our first responsibility in any crisis, whether personal or global, is prayer. In 2 Chronicles 20:1-4, King Jehoshaphat demonstrates this when he learns of an imminent invasion of Judah from many enemies. In verse three, we find that "Jehoshaphat was afraid and turned his attention to seek the LORD; and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah." Of course, he was frightened by the news; however, Jehoshaphat did not concentrate on his feelings, but rather sought the Lord’s direction. Likewise, in these troubling times of terrorism and war, God desires that we, too, prayerfully seek His wisdom and guidance for our nation.

Not only should we respond to a crisis with prayer, we should respond with fervent prayer. Second Chronicles 20:6-12 is a wonderful example of a serious and impassioned prayer. Jehoshaphat did not simply mumble, "Lord, please help us," or "just bless our nation somehow." Instead, he actually stood before the people of Judah and cried out to God about their particular situation. When was the last time you felt so desperate that you forgot who was looking or listening, and unashamedly called out to the Lord? My friend, I can tell you that if you do this, your prayer life will take on an entirely different perspective—God’s perspective. We need to be specific and persistent in our praying.

Jehoshaphat also proclaimed a fast throughout the land. The people set aside their normal schedules in order to focus their attention on God. You might ask, "Well, what’s that got to do with prayer?" You see, when you fast, your mind gets clearer. When you begin to seek the Lord during this time, He will show you things that you may not sense at other times. Fasting—along with prayer—shows that we take our praying very seriously.

Focus on God’s Person and Power

In our prayer, it is also important that we focus on the Person and power of God. King Jehoshaphat does this in 2 Chronicles 20:6-12. He first exclaims, "O LORD, the God of our fathers, are You not God in the heavens? Are You not ruler over all the kingdoms and nations? Power and might are in Your hand so that no one can stand against You" (2 Chron. 20:6). Jehoshaphat acknowledges the presence, might, and sovereignty of the Lord. We, too, should first concentrate on the many wonderful characteristics of God; for example, the fact that He is merciful, forgiving, always in control, and willing to intervene on behalf of His children.

In the next verse, Jehoshaphat also recalls the mighty things that God had done in the past (2 Chron. 20:7). This was another way that Judah’s king could praise God and remind the people of His faithfulness. Like Jehoshaphat, we need to focus our attention on the divine characteristics of our Lord.

Humble and Dependent on God

In addition, our prayers should be offered with a spirit of humility and total dependence upon God. Second Chronicles 20:9 describes Jehoshaphat’s declaration that if the people cry out to God in their distress, then He will hear and deliver them. In another verse, he declares that Judah is "powerless before this great multitude who are coming against [them]; nor do [they] know what to do, but [their] eyes are upon [God]" (2 Chron. 20:12).

Jehoshaphat shows humility by expressing Judah’s absolute dependence on God. They did not place their faith in the country’s army or leaders; instead, they relied completely on the Lord. Likewise, despite the great military forces of today, we cannot trust our own abilities, but must depend upon the almighty God. Though He may choose to use the military to accomplish His purposes, He alone ordains what happens during warfare. The important thing is that we do not attempt to proudly handle situations on our own, but rather humbly depend on God.

Confidence in God’s Presence and Sovereignty

We can also pray with confidence that God is always with us, and that He alone determines the outcome of the battle. The people of Judah learned this firsthand when the Lord spoke to them through a prophet in 2 Chronicles 20:14-19. In verse 15, he declares, "Thus says the LORD to you, ‘Do not fear or be dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours but God’s.’" God responded to the prayers and fasting of His children, reassuring them that He was present and in control of the situation. God always hears and answers the prayers of believers who have repentant hearts and surrendered lives. Psalm 34:15 says, "The eyes of the LORD are toward the righteous, and His ears are open to their cry."

God not only hears us, He also carries out His sovereign will. Just like Judah, we do not know what may happen or what we should do at times; so, we must pray for the Lord’s will. How do we discover the will of God? Look in His Word. By reading the truths and promises of Scripture, and then concentrating on them in our prayers, we will know that we are praying for God to accomplish His perfect will.

Do Whatever the Lord Requires

When we pray, we should also be willing to do whatever the Lord requires of us. Jehoshaphat and the people of Judah are great examples of obedience to God. He told them not to fight, but to simply stand on the battlefield and witness the salvation of the Lord. No doubt, this seemed like a strange request; however, they obeyed Him, and the Lord saved Judah by destroying their enemies right before their eyes! (2 Chronicles 20:16-27) Following the directions of our Lord brings us a mighty victory, and also serves as a testimony to His sovereignty and providence.

Just as Jehoshaphat and Judah sought the Lord through fasting and prayer, we must seek the will of God during these troubling times. It is our duty to pray seriously for our nation, to fall on our knees and cry out to the Lord for His direction and guidance. When we pray to our heavenly Father, we should acknowledge the fact that He is the almighty God, with absolute control over everything that happens. Foremost, God desires that we surrender our pride, and prayerfully turn to Him with confidence that He will fulfill His perfect will for our good and for His glory. God is the only defense for a nation under attack; like Judah, it is time that we also "turn our attention to seek the LORD"(2 Chron. 20:4).

—Charles F. Stanley

 

[d0c markus]

I just may print that out, stick it in my pocket for this saturday, pass it out as needed.