Kentucky Bill Would Mandate Ultrasounds Before Abortions

[IisJustMe]

More falsehoods. I know several women who have had abortions, all of whom very seriously considered their options, none of whom chose an abortion out of "fear" or "confusion". Abortion is NOT pushed on people as the only option - if any pro-lifers ever bothered to VISIT a Planned Parenthood clinic or other provider, they would see how seriously the people there take their jobs, and how concerned they are for what is best for the woman - they certainly are not forcing women to have abortions, or presenting it as if it's the only valid choice. Counseling is actually almost always a big part of a woman's clinic visit.

A friend of mine has a daughter who went to a Planned Parenthood Clinic. Even though she's a strong Christian she didn't feel she had any options other than PPC. She was a sophomore at a Christian college, and she was ashamed. She left, however, when the exact opposite of what you claim here failed to occur. The lack of compassion for her faith and beliefs (she was told, "It's no big deal. It will be over before you know it."), the fact they didn't offer her alternatives even though she specifically asked for them, such as adoption referral. The clinic said they "didn't recommend" such options because of the emotional trauma it would cause the mother giving up her child! Good grief, they were counseling her to murder her child, but were concerned about the emotional trauma giving it away to a couple who wanted it would cause??? She chose to brave the consequences (which of course were not dire at all, as she had supposed) of telling her college adviser and her parents, who worked together to help find a Christian ministry dedicated to locating adoptive parents for unwed mothers. All PPC has to do is make some contacts in their respective communities, and they could accomplish this with ease. But they have no interest in it. Perhaps you should understand why.

PPC was founded by Margaret Sanger, a woman who espoused the very genocidal insanity Hitler enacted. She was a bigot and a racist, and was the main figure in planning the sterilization of many young black women in the south in the 20s and 30s. I don't trust an organization founded under such stupidity, and it is apparent to me they have no interest except in furthering her warped and perverted "brave new world" mentality.

 

[fanatiquefou]

A friend of mine has a daughter who went to a Planned Parenthood Clinic. Even though she's a strong Christian she didn't feel she had any options other than PPC. She was a sophomore at a Christian college, and she was ashamed. She left, however, when the exact opposite of what you claim here failed to occur. The lack of compassion for her faith and beliefs (she was told, "It's no big deal. It will be over before you know it."), the fact they didn't offer her alternatives even though she specifically asked for them, such as adoption referral. The clinic said they "didn't recommend" such options because of the emotional trauma it would cause the mother giving up her child! Good grief, they were counseling her to murder her child, but were concerned about the emotional trauma giving it away to a couple who wanted it would cause???

If she was really treated as you claim, then that particular clinic was in the wrong. I guarantee you that most women's clinic experiences are nothing like that. I also find it very interesting that you seem to think that just carrying an unwanted child to term and then giving it up for adoption is apparently no big deal. Abortion IS in fact a much easier and safer process than going through the hardship of an unwanted nine-month pregnancy. And ABORTION IS NOT MURDER. Stop lying.

 

[fanatiquefou]

I don't trust an organization founded under such stupidity, and it is apparent to me they have no interest except in furthering her warped and perverted "brave new world" mentality.

It is apparent to you, based on ONE anecdotal story? How ridiculous.

 

[IisJustMe]

It is apparent to you, based on ONE anecdotal story? How ridiculous.

I note you did nothing to defend my points about Sanger. What would you call that? As to it being "one anecdotal story" it is the common experience of thousands of young women who go the PPC. And even if it is only one -- which it isn't, but even if it is -- is it right that it happened to her? Also, you are the one who suggested that "us pro-lifers" go to a PPC and investigate. What if this happened during one of those investigations? Would you still disparage the "anecdote"?

You might do some research online to discover this for yourself. I think you will be surprised to find PPC isn't all that great a place to go if you are a young woman who doesn't want an abortion.

 

[fanatiquefou]

I note you did nothing to defend my points about Sanger. What would you call that? As to it being "one anecdotal story" it is the common experience of thousands of young women who go the PPC. And even if it is only one -- which it isn't, but even if it is -- is it right that it happened to her? Also, you are the one who suggested that "us pro-lifers" go to a PPC and investigate. What if this happened during one of those investigations? Would you still disparage the "anecdote"?

You might do some research online to discover this for yourself. I think you will be surprised to find PPC isn't all that great a place to go if you are a young woman who doesn't want an abortion.

Look - I'd bet you anything that I know more about Planned Parenthood clinics, what they stand for, and what really goes on there, than you do. Where do you get your claim that your one anecdotal story is the "common experience of thousands of young women"? Because I call shenanigans. I know PP, I've researched them, and I stand confidently behind them and their work.

 

[IisJustMe]

Look - I'd bet you anything that I know more about Planned Parenthood clinics, what they stand for, and what really goes on there, than you do. Where do you get your claim that your one anecdotal story is the "common experience of thousands of young women"? Because I call shenanigans. I know PP, I've researched them, and I stand confidently behind them and their work.

you didn't answer any of my questions. Now what am I to think? You expect your research and expertise trumps my own, particularly in light of my friend's daughter's experience? I don't think so. Nor have I seen you produce any support whatsoever, except your personal opinion, for our viewpoint. At least I have the anecdote you dismiss as trivial. Believe me it wasn't trivial for the young woman!

Have you actually been in a PPC? Would it surprise you to know that I have? Just because I don't think PPC is what you say it is doesn't make me wrong. It makes me someone with a different experience. Neither trumps the other. Sanger's record, on the other hand, speaks for itself, and necessarily casts a shadow over the organization she founded, even 80 years later.

 

[fanatiquefou]

you didn't answer any of my questions. Now what am I to think? You expect your research and expertise trumps my own, particularly in light of my friend's daughter's experience? I don't think so. Nor have I seen you produce any support whatsoever, except your personal opinion, for our viewpoint. At least I have the anecdote you dismiss as trivial. Believe me it wasn't trivial for the young woman!

Have you actually been in a PPC? Would it surprise you to know that I have? Just because I don't think PPC is what you say it is doesn't make me wrong. It makes me someone with a different experience. Neither trumps the other. Sanger's record, on the other hand, speaks for itself, and necessarily casts a shadow over the organization she founded, even 80 years later.

Gee, and what revealing research have YOU presented? And I never dismissed your anecdote as trivial - if you recall, I said that the PP clinic she visited was wrong in her case. I also believe, based on my own experience with PP, that if you have reported her visit accurately, it is an anomaly, and I am very sorry that she met with such an experience.

You ask if I've ever been in a PPC. In fact, I have, multiple times. They've provided me and several of my friends with invaluable health services. None of us have gotten an abortion there, by the way - abortions are really only a fraction of what PPCs do.

On Sanger - frankly, I don't much feel like getting into it right now. Suffice it to say that you've misrepresented a LOT of what she stood for, and that her beliefs were well within the standard of the times - she certainly was not alone, and was in fact joined by many prominent citizens and even Christians in her beliefs. I happen to agree with some of what she did and stood for, and disagree with other things. None of which is important, considering that Planned Parenthood is NOT Margaret Sanger, and they do not practice eugenics of any sort.

 

[IisJustMe]

On Sanger - frankly, I don't much feel like getting into it right now. Suffice it to say that you've misrepresented a LOT of what she stood for, and that her beliefs were well within the standard of the times

Yeah, for the KKK. This discussion is going nowhere. You continue to believe PP is the benevolent, compassionate, benign organization you say. Meanwhile, I'll believe the truth. Thanks for the exchange. I think I'll go wash my hands now. I was too close to the web site that told the truth about Sanger.

 

[fanatiquefou]

Yeah, for the KKK. This discussion is going nowhere. You continue to believe PP is the benevolent, compassionate, benign organization you say. Meanwhile, I'll believe the truth. Thanks for the exchange. I think I'll go wash my hands now. I was too close to the web site that told the truth about Sanger.

Guess what? You do not have the sole claim on truth - in fact, from your posts in this thread, it looks to me like you've taken on a whole lot of falsehoods and misrepresentations and are claiming them as the "truth." Not likely. I thank God that I've been exposed to enough real research and actual experiences with Planned Parenthood to recognize the lies that extreme anti-abortionists spread.

You do realize that in the 1920s, beliefs like Sanger's (and yes, the KKK) were mainstream? You might have have believed such things yourself if you'd lived back then. And despite her firm beliefs in improving the human race through eugenics, ultimately she stood strongly against what she saw as misuse of such beliefs - such as, for example, Nazi Germany or the KKK. She believed that the state or other authorities should NEVER take a hand in promoting eugenics, and that such actions were entirely up to the individual. She was not a perfect person. She had some screwy ideas. I entirely reject her idea of eugenics. But she was very much a product of her time. Besides which, I don't know of any public figures without a few skeletons in their closet. And for the last time, whatever Margaret Sanger believed, it's immaterial to the work that PPCs do now.

 

[fanatiquefou]

By the way, IisJustMe, I'd like to see you answer some of MY questions and respond to the points that I'VE raised. I'm certainly under no obligation to counter your accusations if you refuse to even consider any of my points.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Does anyone actually think this ISN'T a play on emotion?

Most abortions are performed before "little fingers and toes" are going to be visable. But maybe by the time the get the sonogram they will be far enought along to see them...and then have a 2nd trimester abortion. Good thinking people.

Animals have fingers and toes and no one thinks anything about them being killed for food.

The problem is that people realize the fetus is a human and it is wrong to end the life.

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

More falsehoods. I know several women who have had abortions, all of whom very seriously considered their options, none of whom chose an abortion out of "fear" or "confusion". Abortion is NOT pushed on people as the only option - if any pro-lifers ever bothered to VISIT a Planned Parenthood clinic or other provider, they would see how seriously the people there take their jobs, and how concerned they are for what is best for the woman - they certainly are not forcing women to have abortions, or presenting it as if it's the only valid choice. Counseling is actually almost always a big part of a woman's clinic visit.

I also know several women who have had abortions, all except one were done out of fear and confusion, both adults and minors. I wasn't specifically talking about planned parenthood, I was talking generally, society today is MUCH more leniant towards the idea of having an abortion rather than placing a child for adoption, and the statistics show that there are thousands of abortions performed with numbers of babies being placed for adoption as LESS THAN 20 in my state (in australia). I have friends who waited years on the adoption list and finally adopted a baby boy - that year there were 12 babies available for adoption in my state (3 years ago). I don't know much about planned parenthood, which is why I never mentioned them. I do know about school counsellors organising secret abortions for their minor students (happened to a friend, oh and the counsellor was a nun), I do know about abortion clinics advertising their services in a university publication - using mandatory school fees and tax payer funding. And I know how pro-choice people get up in arms when ever any suggestions are made to help lower the numbers of abortions.

Anyway, like I said in my first post, I don't think this issue is one that does well with just throwing more legislation at it. But if abortion clinics had an ultrasound machine and offered free ultrasounds (lets lose the word MANDATORY), I don't think that would be a bad idea.

I am staunchly pro-choice and will fight against anyone's attempts to legally force pregnancy on women.

I'm sorry, legally force pregnancy on women???????

And I notice that no-one has commented on my point that an ultrasound could actually help the abortion to be performed more efficiently...

 

[Richard]

Close for Review. Debate is not allowed in NC&E Forums.

 

[Richard]

Thread is staying closed due to numerous flaming reports, and the fact that it is off topic. If you would like to debate Abortion please use the appropriate forum.

Forum: Debates On Abortion

Thanks,

PM Me if you have any questions.



RichardMac