Kent Hovind

[Ambrosia416]

To Everyone Participating in the Science, Creation, & Evolution discussions,

I am posting this thread to sincerely apologize for believeing futile, hateful, and derogatory rumors concering Creationist Kent Hovind. As I was quoting Mr. Hovind's information on a few different threads, it was brought to my attention that he had been using false info to mislead people. Instead of immediately going to the source, Kent Hovind, and questioning him, I believed that he was a liar because of one piece of "evidence" against him (dinoasaur and human footprints together). I eventually e-mailed Mr. Hovind concerning this and he called me within two days of getting my e-mail. I was able to talk to him about certain rumors, which he discredited. He was straightforward with me and very willing to intelligently defend himself and his information, which he did. I am completely ashamed of myself for believeing rumors about him without questioning their origins more thoroughly.

Sincerly

Ambrosia

 

[npetreley]

Attention all who insist AiG is *lying* about Ambulocetus fossils just because the articles aren't to your liking.

 

[Jerry Smith]

Ambrosia, I respect your intentions, your motivations, and your obvious dedication to an honest view of matters. I am left puzzled though, how Hovind managed to convince you of his basic innocence on the matters that are alleged against him. Would it be too much to ask you whether he explained his bankrupcy claims of "no personal property and no income"?

The U.S. Bankrupcy Court has this to say about the matter:

1307(c) In re Hovind 197 B.R. 157 (1996) - Pre-confirmation Chapter 13 case may be dismissed for bad faith filing.

From here:
http://www.flnb.uscourts.gov/Killian402.pdf

I also wonder what answers he gave you with regards to his use of the term PhD with his name.

Really it is only the second issue that is of major concern to me. By all accounts, Patriot is a diploma mill, and Hovind will not allow his "Doctoral Thesis" as was written for his PhD to be examined. This is a very basic thing. Any PhD should be and normally is more than willing to have his Doctoral thesis examined by any and all interested parties. I find it strikingly dishonest that Kent would use that honorific to portray himself as someone who has devoted years of his life to studying a field of academic knowledge and preparing himself for research in that field, when didn't do any of that. The fact that he is willing to file a bad faith bankrupcy in order to help him with his tax "protest" is just another indication of character that makes me extremely skeptical of anything the man has to say...

I'd like to hear how he answered these issues.

 

[LiveFreeOrDie]

If what you say is true, then Mr. Hovind needs to get in touch with the creator of this web site:

http://www.geocities.com/kenthovind/lies/index.html

 

[chickenman]

kent hovind has a lot of charisma, it makes up for his lack of qualifications....and his lack of integrity.......and his lack of understanding about some fairly simple science.....

 

[ardipithecus]

Originally posted by Jerry Smith
Ambrosia, I respect your intentions, your motivations, and your obvious dedication to an honest view of matters. I am left puzzled though, how Hovind managed to convince you of his basic innocence on the matters that are alleged against him. Would it be too much to ask you whether he explained his bankrupcy claims of "no personal property and no income"?

The U.S. Bankrupcy Court has this to say about the matter:

From here:
http://www.flnb.uscourts.gov/Killian402.pdf 

The conclusion of the Judge was:

Here, the debtor, who has failed to acknowledge his obligations as a citizen and taxpayer of the United States, seeks to utilize this taxpayer supported court in order to thwart the lawful collection efforts of the Internal Revenue Service . . . The debtor having failed to file his federal income tax returns for at least the years 1989 through 1995, having resisted collection efforts by the IRS, and having provided false information in his schedules and statement of affairs in connection with this case, I find that the debtor filed this petition in bad faith and as such the petition is subject to dismissal for cause under the provisions of 11 U.S.C. 1307(c).

Also:

Notwithstanding the debtor's listing under penalty of perjury in his schedules and statement of affairs that he has no income, has no expenses, and owns no property, the evidence shows otherwise.

Much of judgement was transcribed here.  It was part of the research for The Talk.Origins Archive FAQ on Hovind's $250,000 Offer.

 

 

[IdahoAmber]

I am posting this reply for Ambroisa416 because her computer is being stupid. I am her best friend.
remember these are Ambrosia's words:

First, I was wondering if any of you have bothered to call Mr. Hovind to ask him about these issues personally? This thread is a result of my failure to do so. I agree that evasion of taxes is good grounds to assume dishonesty in other matters, but has he been confronted about this? or is this the product of an atheist hoping to make him appear dishonest? I don't mean to offend, but I would be offended if people were going behind my back and gossiping instead of confronting me. Spreading rumors and or gossiping never resolved anything. Second, I questioned him about his Phd in education, which he does have. I don't think I understand why everyone is so concerned about that. He never claimed to have a Phd in science, he only said that he studies it on his own time because he enjoys it. It sounds to me, and maybe I'm wrong, that some people have a problem with his arguing creation vs. evolution because he didn't graduate from harvard or berkley. who cares?!?! If the man can argue science lets not get off the subject of science. If anyone cares I am calling Mr. Hovind tomorrow to question him about some things. If you don't want to do this on your own time, post questions about anything here and I will be more than happy to ask him about it. I will post his replies afterward. Thank you for your time!
Thank you,
Ambrosia

 

[seebs]

I have a problem with Kent Hovind's "Ph. D." because he presents it as if it's a *relevant* credential - when it's not from a real university, but rather, from one of those diploma-mills from which anyone can get a diploma.

 

[IdahoAmber]

how do you know?

 

[ardipithecus]

Originally posted by Ambroisia416 via IdahoAmber
First, I was wondering if any of you have bothered to call Mr. Hovind to ask him about these issues personally? This thread is a result of my failure to do so. I agree that evasion of taxes is good grounds to assume dishonesty in other matters, but has he been confronted about this? or is this the product of an atheist hoping to make him appear dishonest? I don't mean to offend, but I would be offended if people were going behind my back and gossiping instead of confronting me. Spreading rumors and or gossiping never resolved anything. Second, I questioned him about his Phd in education, which he does have. I don't think I understand why everyone is so concerned about that. He never claimed to have a Phd in science, he only said that he studies it on his own time because he enjoys it. It sounds to me, and maybe I'm wrong, that some people have a problem with his arguing creation vs. evolution because he didn't graduate from harvard or berkley. who cares?!?! If the man can argue science lets not get off the subject of science. If anyone cares I am calling Mr. Hovind tomorrow to question him about some things. If you don't want to do this on your own time, post questions about anything here and I will be more than happy to ask him about it. I will post his replies afterward. Thank you for your time! 

Has Hovind been confronted over his tax evasion?  Yes he has, in a court of law.  It is a matter of record that Hovind claimed he had no income when he clearly did.

And people have confronted Hovind about his claims.  For example look at http://www.skepticfriends.org/letter055.asp

This includes Hovind's reply to creationist claims mammoths with different parts dating differently.   Read the above URL please, it is rather short.  Notice Hovind is confronted with the fact that his reference does not support his claim.  He replies with a dishonest request to actually read his reference.    Well I have looked at his reference and have a photocopy of page 30 in front of me as I type this.   And skepticfriends.org is right, the specimen Hovind cited in his reply is an ox  and not a mammoth.

The simple fact is that Hovind has a hard time getting a single paragraph without a glaring error.   

This is the guy who claims that sunflowers have the closest cytochrome c sequence to humans.  This is the guy who claims that "Dawn Horse" is a hyrax.  So on and so forth covering the entire breadth of false creationist claims.

 

 

 

[Ben Reid]

Originally posted by seebs
I have a problem with Kent Hovind's "Ph. D." because he presents it as if it's a *relevant* credential - when it's not from a real university, but rather, from one of those diploma-mills from which anyone can get a diploma.

C'mon seebs. You're above comments like that.

 

 

[seebs]

I'm not above a sincere, honestly, held, criticism of what seems to me to be genuinely dishonest behavior.

There is such a thing as a diploma mill. The street address given for "Patriot University" is the address of a house. There is no evidence that there is any kind of real academic institution involved.

I can find no convincing evidence that Hovind is anything more than a snake-oil salesman, who is taking advantage of people who want someone "with a degree" to tell them that their beliefs are just fine and there's no problems with 'em.

The fact is, this "university" is not like a normal university. Try writing them and asking them for a copy of Hovind's thesis dissertation. At a real university, the *ORIGINAL* dissertation, as it was when he defended it (keep in mind, a thesis is *defended*, not just written, at a real academic institution), would be on file, and you could get it. Who was on the panel when he defended this thesis? Presumably, people with real degrees. Who are the instructors at Patriot University? Is Patriot an accredited institution?

The answers to these questions appear to suggest, quite strongly, that Kent did not get a diploma from an accredited university... and the only real reason to get one elsewhere is because you can just outright buy 'em.

Haven't you ever gotten spam offering you a degree from a "prestigious non-accredited university"? That's what Patriot U is, so far as anyone can tell.

I'm afraid I can't tell you much about them from *their* site - Patriot U's home page only works if you have Flash installed.

But, for an *OBVIOUS* piece of evidence: If they're a university, why are they a ".com" and not a ".edu"? Answer: They couldn't get a .edu address without being a real educational institution.

The "whois" entry for patriot university doesn't even list a company; it lists a street address.
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.ad...eKiWRfo4FLlGIO3GZ7sGPgIlqbvIJ6GcZc4TUhnBFFA==

Try that URL (not sure it'll work). It's a *HOUSE*. On a city street.

The man sells video tape sets for $99. He has no verifiable education in the field. He repeats falsehoods long after having been shown the errors in them. And he uses a diploma he bought from some guy's house as a "credential" to show that he's for real.

I am ashamed of him.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Ambrosia,

Would you mind telling us which rumors that Hovind discredited? There are many going around about him, I just want to know which ones he talked about.

 

[RufusAtticus]

Maybe Kent Hovind should get intouch with this church too:

A couple of weeks ago, I sent my pastor and associate pastor an e-mail
detailing Kent Hovind's failings, including his using arguments that
have been rejected by other YECs, his questionable credentials, and his
questionable character, e.g. his dealings with the IRS.

I receved the following e-mail in response from our associate pastor
today:

---------

The pastor and I have each looked at your material re: Ken Hovind and we
have decided to pull his materials from our shelves in the Media
Library. I appreciate the many references which you sent and I examined
many of these in making this decision. As you know there will likely be
some who will question this call but I plan to save this to reference
our decision.

Thanks again for the time you invested in seeing that we have materials
that are biblically sound and endorse individuals whose lives are beyond
reproach.

---------

Hovinds materials have been pulled from our library, and will no longer
be allowed to be used in any classes in our church. A small victory, I
think.

Ken

(original)

 

[Ambrosia416]

The rumors are the recent tax "evasion" which is actually over a jurisdiction problem facing Mr. Hovind's church, the second is concerning Patriot university...It is not the house, it is the church next to the house. And no one has even answered me as to if they (everyone writing on this thread) have called Kent Hovind and confronted him personally. All I read is, "Look at this website." Why should I believe them and completely ignore him? Why should I take everyone's advice on why not to believe him and no one seems interested in taking mine about at least confronting him? If he backs out when I question him tomorrow about everything that has thus far been posted, I deal with it from there, but I am not going to assume anything again..I was ashamed of myself for doing that perviously.

Also, I will be more than happy to look into the Patriot University degree situation..But as I said before, people need to stop obsessing over his degree in EDUCATION, and get back to the main arguement of creation v. evolution. If he's lying about his PhD in EDUCATION, that would be grounds to question where else he maybe lying. But I don't see how him not having an "accredited" degree in EDUCATION makes him any less qualified to AGRUE.

God Bless,

Ambrosia 

 

[chickenman]

I don't think he has an argument left that hasn't been thouroughly refuted

 

[Ambrosia416]

Then please refute every arguement, I would love wasting his time on the phone tomorrow so as to hear him respond.

Ambrosia

 

[RufusAtticus]

Ambrosia,

Thank you for your response. His recent problems with the government don't have to do with tax evasion. They have to do with the fact that he built a building on his land without getting it certified by the county building commission as up to code. Basically, he built without a permit. A building inspector went to inspect it and serve him a fine for building without a permit, but he threw her off the property claiming that it was "God's" property, and she had no jurisdiction. Then he gets on his website and claims that he is being persecuted because he is a Christian. It gets me how following the same rules as everyone else amounts to persecution.

Yes Hovind does have a PhD in Christian Education, or at least that's what the paper says. Whether the PhD is genuine or not does not have to matter, since it is in a field irrelevant to his claims. He likes to claim that he has a PhD which makes him an authority on something, but unless he is talking about Christian Education that authority is a ruse. Basically, he is no more an authority on science as my two kittens are.

PhD in Christian Education vs PhD in Biology:
Which one would you rather trust when talking about biology?

 

[Ambrosia416]

I trust the Truth, labels mean nothing to me. I have listened to "educated" people who are truly mindless, just as I have spoken with high school drop outs who now know how to use their minds. Sound stupid? That's life. I have nothing agaist educated biologists, but I am not prejudiced against people who don't have degrees. I study religion (all kinds not just Christian) because I am interested in what others think. Do I have a degree in religion, or philosopy? No, I'm 18, just graduated high school. Does that mean I have no room to talk? No, it means I don't have a degree. This is something I do on my own time. Like I have said before, let's seek after truth. If Hovind isn't lying about having some kind of PhD, let's get over it and get back onto creation v evolution. I don't trust the proud and "educated" simply because they have gone through college. I trust people who are truthful and are not arrogant. Kent Hovind has never claimed authority on the subject because he has a degree. If so, show me.

People can know things and not have a title to prove it. I have absolutely nothing against college nor degrees nor people who get college degrees. I do not think, however, that those people have complete authority on anything. They are people like the rest of us, and some more mindless and heartless. I would trust an honest Person with a PhD in biology, just as I would trust an Honest man with a PhD in education. If someone knows what they are talking about, listen. If not correct them. This endless parade about how "unqualified" Kent Hovind is, is a complete waste of time. Confront him...well, I guess that's my job.

Sincerely,

Ambrosia

 

[RufusAtticus]

Ambrosia,

Does Hovind or does he not use his title of "PhD" to claim that he is an authority on the topic?

From what I see in his work and the people that support him, he does parade his degree around. Since he does do that, it is approprate to see if his appeal to personal authority holds any merit. Any examination of his credentials, will show that he is not what he portrays himself to be. For instance the title of "Dr. Dino" is entirely misleading since he isn't a paleontologist, never trained to be one, nor even done any work similar to one.

A Review of Hovind's Dissertion

Now, if you want to see some examination of Hovind's claims, browse this page.

http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Pier/1766/hovindlies/

Edited to add:
We would be happy to discuss some of Hovind claims. Please pick the one that you think is most compelling against evolution and we'll discuss it.