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Kent Hovind derail -- from Creationist sub-forum

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denverB183

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rachlou1976 said:
Hiya,

That was an interesting post. Jesus taking Genesis literally is very true. I didn't know that there were similar ideas about evolution floating around in those days too. Erm what is a theistic evolutionist? :p

Rach x

What is a theist evolutionist? It sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me *chuckle*. Did you know that there is not a single piece of evidence to support evolution? Not one. There is a standing offer by Dr. Kent Hovind that he will pay $250,000 to anyone who can bring forward a singe piece of evidence for evolution, it's been out for years now, and no one has gotten it yet. Hmmm interesting.
 

shernren

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laptoppop

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While I disagree with the position, theistic evolution does solve the primary problems of why there are no transitionary forms in the fossil record, and what is the actual mechanism for new forms to spring up. As I understand it, one type of theistic evolution believes God specifically participated in what is called evolution, and used it to "create" man over a long period of time. Of course, this postulates millions of interventions by God to make this happen.
-lee-
 
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Dannager

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denverB183 said:
What is a theist evolutionist? It sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me *chuckle*.
A theistic evolutionist is one who both believes in a higher power and accepts evolutionary theory as the best explanation for currently observed biodiversity.
Did you know that there is not a single piece of evidence to support evolution? Not one.
This isn't the place for debate, so if you feel like contesting evidence in support of evolution by all means make use of one of the two boards designed for debate. There are dozens of threads listing observed, verified, unchallenged evidences for evolutionary theory.
There is a standing offer by Dr. Kent Hovind that he will pay $250,000 to anyone who can bring forward a singe piece of evidence for evolution, it's been out for years now, and no one has gotten it yet.

I'd call it rather annoying, actually. Imagine someone offering you $250,000 and then refusing to pay up when you give him what he asks for.
 
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Dannager

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laptoppop said:
While I disagree with the position, theistic evolution does solve the primary problems of why there are no transitionary forms in the fossil record,
As far as I am aware, theistic evolution does not attempt to solve this "problem", as we already have transitionary forms in the fossil record, at just about any point you can imagine. Heck, just this week another pre-human ancestral fossil was uncovered and added to the record.
and what is the actual mechanism for new forms to spring up.
Again, this isn't a problem that theistic evolution tries to "solve". We know what the mechanisms are - natural selection (and a handful of lesser-known selection mechanisms) combined with mutation.
 
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laptoppop

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Dannager said:
As far as I am aware, theistic evolution does not attempt to solve this "problem", as we already have transitionary forms in the fossil record, at just about any point you can imagine. Heck, just this week another pre-human ancestral fossil was uncovered and added to the record.
Ummmm, not really. The lack of an abundance of clear tranisitionary fossils remains a problem for the theory of evolution. Many structures, such as limbs, feathers, the eye, etc. seem to spring out of the record without a set of developing transitionary fossils. Darwin even expected that over time we would find a large number of intermediate fossils. The Cambrian Explosion remains problemmatic in this regard as well.

Yes, there are nice charts, etc. showing one animal next to another, like the sequence for horses. To a YEC, these charts don't really show much, except that it is possible to set things next to each other in a way that shows the Designer's order. I believe many of these charts have also portrayed things "out of order" (according to the generally accepted dates), in order to make the progression appear more complete.

"Punctuated evolution" is one of the many modification of the basic theory to try to account for the gaps in the fossil record. Google can provide a ton of links. The fact remains that there are significant gaps in the fossil record which must be explained one way or another.

(There are a lot of other problems with the actual fossil record. In the field, it is quite often a lot more complicated than the clean textbook presentations, with out of order layers, fossil graveyards, interstitial fossils, etc. Such things fit nicely in a YEC framework, but must be explained in other frameworks.)
Again, this isn't a problem that theistic evolution tries to "solve". We know what the mechanisms are - natural selection (and a handful of lesser-known selection mechanisms) combined with mutation.
Ummmmm, no. Virtually noone disputes natural selection, etc., where population pressures or a variety of other things can contribute to the changes within a group, giving preference to one type over another. It is a shame that one of the examples of this -the dark moth/light moth on the dark trees example - has been discredited, but the general principles are fine. (it also bugs me that there are still textbooks that cite this particular study.) The key is that natural selection changes the ratios within populations, it does not create any new attributes.

There are many problems with "mutations" being the primary mechanism for providing the rich variety of life needed for natural selection to work upon. The biggest problem is the fact that the overwhelming majority of mutations are actually harmful or detrimental to the creature.

TE addresses both of these problems, albeit in a deus ex machina type of way. If the Creator is controlling evolution, then it is easy to explain new structures appearing - the Creator did it. Gaps are no problem because there weren't any transitions at that level, the Creator caused incremental, but puntuated development. The Creator also provides the mechanism for the genetic variations needed for other processes, such as natural selection, to sort out.

-lee-
 
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Dannager

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laptoppop said:
Ummmm, not really. The lack of an abundance of clear tranisitionary fossils remains a problem for the theory of evolution. Many structures, such as limbs, feathers, the eye, etc. seem to spring out of the record without a set of developing transitionary fossils. Darwin even expected that over time we would find a large number of intermediate fossils. The Cambrian Explosion remains problemmatic in this regard as well.

Yes, there are nice charts, etc. showing one animal next to another, like the sequence for horses. To a YEC, these charts don't really show much, except that it is possible to set things next to each other in a way that shows the Designer's order. I believe many of these charts have also portrayed things "out of order" (according to the generally accepted dates), in order to make the progression appear more complete.

"Punctuated evolution" is one of the many modification of the basic theory to try to account for the gaps in the fossil record. Google can provide a ton of links. The fact remains that there are significant gaps in the fossil record which must be explained one way or another.

(There are a lot of other problems with the actual fossil record. In the field, it is quite often a lot more complicated than the clean textbook presentations, with out of order layers, fossil graveyards, interstitial fossils, etc. Such things fit nicely in a YEC framework, but must be explained in other frameworks.)
As I'm not allowed to debate in this section I will simply provide a link to a rather thorough accounting of known transitionary fossils: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html. If you wish to continue a debate on whether or not transitionary fossils exist is a number large enough to satisfy you, please bring the discussion to the OT forum.
Ummmmm, no. Virtually noone disputes natural selection, etc., where population pressures or a variety of other things can contribute to the changes within a group, giving preference to one type over another. It is a shame that one of the examples of this -the dark moth/light moth on the dark trees example - has been discredited, but the general principles are fine. (it also bugs me that there are still textbooks that cite this particular study.)
That's because the peppered moth example remains valid. A lot of creationist websites enjoy bringing up the peppered moths because the sheer amount of reading necessary to evaluate the validity of the studies means that no one will challenge their claim that the study is fatally flawed. For a more in-depth refutation of that particular creationist claim, please look at http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB601.html. It's probably a good idea to stop using the peppered moth study as support for YEC, because pretty much everyone here is familiar with the above refutation.
The key is that natural selection changes the ratios within populations, it does not create any new attributes.
Exactly, that's what mutation is for.
There are many problems with "mutations" being the primary mechanism for providing the rich variety of life needed for natural selection to work upon. The biggest problem is the fact that the overwhelming majority of mutations are actually harmful or detrimental to the creature.
This is false, and makes me wonder where you've been getting your information. The vast majority of mutations are neutral, having no perceivable effect on the survivability of the organism. The remainder are either beneficial or detrimental, and this usually depends on the circumstances (read: environment). A creature with a mutation for green spots, for instance, would have increased survivability in a jungle, while having decreased survivability in a desert environment. For more information on mutations, please take a look at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mutations.html.
TE addresses both of these problems, albeit in a deus ex machina type of way. If the Creator is controlling evolution, then it is easy to explain new structures appearing - the Creator did it. Gaps are no problem because there weren't any transitions at that level, the Creator caused incremental, but puntuated development. The Creator also provides the mechanism for the genetic variations needed for other processes, such as natural selection, to sort out.
This is not what most TEs believe. We accept that mutations occur naturally, but that God, with infinite wisdom, was capable of planning things out in advance so that they could occur this way. I believe in no actual divine intervention in the process of evolution, simply that evolution is the method God chose for creating.
 
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stumpjumper

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MOD HAT ON

These posts have been moved from a thread in the Creationist sub-forum. There will be no debating in the various sub-forums as they are reserved for fellowship posts and for asking questions by non-adherents to those various beliefs. This means that a YEC can ask a question in the TE sub-forum but cannot rebut the responses and vice-versa.

Please do not enter the various sub-forums with the goal of refuting what is written or debating other members.


Please read The sticky here

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rmwilliamsll

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Many structures, such as limbs, feathers, the eye, etc. seem to spring out of the record without a set of developing transitionary fossils.

read
Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo and the Making of the Animal Kingdom by Sean B. Carroll
it is a very accessible explanation of the field of evolutionary development, an introduction of hox genes, but most importantly a nice simple explanation of body plans, appendages and how they both develop in an embryo and develop over time in evolution.

as we learn more genetics the evidence for evolution gets even stronger, the genes themselves contain "the fossil transitional forms".
 
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Dannager

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billwald said:
What is a theist evolutionist?

Bottom line of TE is that God was smart enough to design an evolving universe so that he doesn't need to micromanage every molecule and atom. YEC people don't think God has sufficient smarts.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. Our place is not to evaluate God's wisdom. The best we can manage is admiring with awe and wonder.
 
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