Kakure Kirishtans: Are they saved even though they may've gotten lost along the way?

Gxg (G²)

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Amazing to consider the ways that going into hibernation physically when the world changes can change you and cause you to emerge much differently than how you were before going underground. The nature of environments causing you to evolve in ways to match your environment.''

I say that in light of a documentary I saw recently that intrigued me - in regards to studies I've been doing on Japan/Christianity's development there.



Kakure Kirishtan , hidden Japanese believers in Japan who went underground after MASSIVE persecution began against believers in the time prior to Japan locking itself away from the world (during the life of St.Francis Xavier and prior when others, Nestorian Believers especially, were trailblazers in making serious inroads into Japan with the Gospel with St.Francis Xavier setting the way as it concerns Inculturation/finding ways of presenting the Gospel in cultural terms that the local populace would understand...and thus, helping them to better understand Christ) - and in going underground, they actually developed into something radically different from those who helped in their foundations since they were cut off from access to the outside world for centuries. The Hidden Christians have been amazing to me in light of their serious loyalty to St.Francis Xavier for helping them in their growth and also their actions in how they tried to cope with persecution.​









There are others who feel that what the Japanese did is to be condemned without any sympathy...as others feel that the “Hidden Christians” of Japan have let our faith become so intertwined with our culture that it no longer bears much resemblance to true Christianity. Of course, its sad to see how over time the Crypto-Christians confused their Christian beliefs and their Japanese disguises, resulting in the emergence of a hybrid religion no longer resembling the orthodox faith of the missionaries. However, I think that its interesting to see how the Japanese strategy of adopting Japanese cultural forms to mask their Christian faith continued for 240 years and yet their survival plan backfired...

When I look at the Hidden Christians, I'm saddened by what they experienced - and also not surprised by their reactions. It is perhaps more interesting to look at the Hidden Christians who rejected the Church once it arrived, or to scoff at the erroneous teachings that came up during the centuries of hiding. I probably would've too if I didn't grow up with a Bible/had all the facts for so long of a time..

To my knowledge, many of the early Japanese Christians were not very well catechized simply because there weren't enough priests. Towards the beginning of the Tokugawa Shogunate, it seemed that Christianity was seen as a perilous foreign influence - due partially to the fact that it was seen (fairly or unfairly) as an attempt by the Portuguese to weaken the traditional structures. Adding to the issue was the fact that things became worse when a group of persecuted Christians actually did rebel...and Christianity became outlawed for Japanese, with the priests being expelled and a very long and very harsh era of persecution beginning.

As a practical matter the Church had to go underground since the government was putting a lot effort into completely rooting out and destroying the Church - setting up check-points where people would be required to stomp on a sacred Christian image, usually of the crucified Christ, or else be apprehended as a secret Christian..with the sentence for being a Christian usually being death after torture.

It seemed like the situation was complicated further by the fact that the action of Christian practices having to underground was done simultaneously with the actions of the West when the Vatican didn't really have a high priority in sending more priests to aid them. Many have noted that the intense persecution the Church was undergoing was more or less unknown on the other side of the world and the Latin Church was focused on how there was much to do throughout Asia. Trying to smuggle in new priests into the country seemed even more problematic since it was a very rare occurrence.

With the global isolation that the persecuted Japanese Church faced, it seemed like the Hidden Christians had to do the best they could with what they possessed - whether that be practicing the prayers they remembered or praying to Jesus and hoping for the day the Church would be properly established in Japan. The realization of how their struggle would last for a long time led them to pass whatever information they could to their children - but this got complicated with being a Crypto-Christian group that knew that anything that they fashioned had to resemble, at least in part, something properly Buddhist or Shintoist to avoid persecution.

Although much of the world had long forgotten the Japanese in their struggle and a remnant did hold out as long as they could, it seems that what evolved was a culture where they had never seen a priest or heard the Bible directly from a printed copy - leading to information getting lost in translation

Sad to witness how they were on the back-burner..though even in places such as China, there were (to my knowledge) many complaints given by other missionaries there who felt that Asian nations generally were treated the same way as it concerns disrespect/assuming that the West was what they needed to conform to...and if not done on the terms of the West, then there was little concern with addressing ways of inculturation within Asian lands. Its one of the reasons why Crypto-Christianity even began, due the persecution that happened later with the Chineese Rites Controversy---which wasn't apologized for till much later when others realized that how Christendom developed in the West was going to be naturally different from how it was to rise up in the East, just as Christianity/discipleship in European lands was radically different in many ways from how it was in Jewish culture and lands such as Palestine and the Middle East.

Much of it does remind me of how many Jews acted after coming back from the Exile of 70 years, as living in Babylon and Persia led to the rise of many things that were not originally apart of the culture....such as synagouges (in light of lacking a physical temple) and the rise of rabbis in place of priests. The language of Hebrew began to die out, as noted in Nehemiah 13:23-25 Nehemiah 13 ..though that was due more so to intermarriage and not reinforcing what was apart of their heritage. I think that the Hidden Christians are similar to what occurred to others who live in isolation from others and think that what it is they grew up with was truly what things were originally. If I grew up in a home under intense persecution and inherited a tradition from my parents that was conveyed to them by their parents to be what true Christians originally brought, I'd naturally not question it. And if I was told to hold out to help arrived, I'd naturally assume that what I was taught to keep in the meantime was what the original faith was....

In seeing their example, I know others have said what they had was simply religion and no relationship with CHrist. However, I don't really think that what they have is just religion handed down truthfully anymore than it was for others where they did what they knew in obediance to the Lord - even though they didn't have all the facts for a myriad of reasons. I'm reminded of Acts 10 with Cornelius who never heard of Jesus - and yet he knew of how he was to live righteous and he was devout in sharing with the poor/giving alms and the Lord said it was like a memorial to Him. Romans 2 comes to mind where Paul said that those without the law become a law unto themselves and that the Lord would judge them based on what they knew/were obediant to - and Romans 3:25-26/Acts 17:30 where Paul notes that God overlooked certain things when there was ignorance and that the Lord made provision in Christ (Acts 3:17, Acts 13;27, etc.), I have to take that seriously.

________________________
Acts 19:1-6
Paul in Ephesus 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied.

___________________________


These believers in the Lord were COMPLETLY unware of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit----something Christ made clear was apart of the reason why He had to die (Joel 2:27-29 , John 14, John 16, Acts 2:16-18, etc)---and therefore they probably had not heard much of Jesus's Life and ministry.....and CERTAINLY not of His death and resurrection. They had evidently relocated from Palestine to Ephesus before Jesus's own ministry began...and as followers of John, they would have known His message that the Messiah would bring the Spirit (Luke 3:16). Nonetheless, it stands to reason that the obvious issue is that they were already considered FOLLOWERS of GOD long before having full information of the details of Christ's Work/something to believe in..

With the Hidden Christians, perhaps it was the case that Catholic Missionaries (and all others, including Protestant) prepared them for much of the errors they may've fallen into when it came to losing connection with how the Catholic Faith was originally. For to my knowledge, the Kakure weren't given access to Bibles translated into their own language...and in many ways, the efforts of presenting the Gospel in terms that resonated with the culture they knew may've not been complete.

Truthfully, it could be argued that Naaman the Syrian in II Kings 5 would have been considered a Kakure, as he went home and continued to kneel before the god of his king even after acknowledging who the Lord was and being exposed to him. ..though he had preserved access to the Torah through the nation of Israel and so it may be a different story from the Kahure who literally had no access to extensive information to keep referring

And now, sadly, they're dying out.


That said, I was wanting to know what the thoughts were of any Catholic believers here if they have ever pondered on the issue. Do you feel that the Hidden Christians are off completely or do you feel that they are in relationship with the Lord?

Also, do you personally feel you would have done the same as a Catholic when placed in the situation they were in?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Gxg (G²);62351412 said:
I was wanting to know what the thoughts were of any Catholic believers here if they have ever pondered on the issue. Do you feel that the Hidden Christians are off completely or do you feel that they are in relationship with the Lord?

Also, do you personally feel you would have done the same as a Catholic when placed in the situation they were in?
Meant to mention earlier that if any Catholics here know of any good resources or study materials on the Hidden Christians, I'd greatly appreciate it :) Trying to be as accurate as possible in my understanding of them and how to best treat the situation. Blessings :)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Only God can determine who is saved and who isn't. :)
I agree - as sticky as that can be at times whenever others say "this indivdual cannot be saved because of these actions which clearly are against what Christ taught.."...for no one can read motives and only the Lord can see that (I John 2:15-19 ), with even actions we'd judge as "righteous" being moot before the Lord if our hearts were not to serve Him (I Corinthians 13, I Corinthians 3:16-23, I Corinthians 4, Proverbs 16:2, Jeremiah 11:20, etc.). And with the Hidden Christians (or even others before them who experienced some similar dynamics like the Nestorians in Japan), it seems that applies.

But it is interesting since many can say someone is saved and only the Lord knows - and yet they seem to not treat others as if they're saved. With the Japan's Hidden Christians, I've seen this often and it perplexes me - for persecution appeared as early as the 1560s when an unnamed woman was beheaded for the crime of praying in front of a cross. And extreme cruelty took place that many never had to deal with. Prior to the event where the 26 Martyrs of Nagasaki were crucified — a 12-year-old boy was among them — their right ears were cut off, and the prisoners displayed in carts. I'm still shocked seeing how the Japanese authorities executed over 4,000 people in a mere 30-year period - with thousands more being tortured, with methods ranging from snake and excreta pits to amputations, water torture, branding, upside down suspension, and suffocation among them....and when seeing that background, I am not surprised that thousands of converts would go underground after the banninbg of Christianity and consequently created a syncretic form of the faith.

And yet in spite of all they have gone through, I don't understand why even today their faith is not fully recognized by the Catholic Church in Japan. For although the majority of Kakure Kirishitan rejoined the Catholic Church after renouncing unorthodox, syncretic practices, some Kakure Krishitan did not rejoin the Catholic Church, and became known as the Hanare Kirishitan (離れキリシタン, separated Christians ). Processing on the issue, there are some realities I can understand when seeing the ways that tens of thousands of Kirishitan still survived in some regions near Nagasaki and some officially returned to the Roman Catholic Church while others remained apart from the Catholic Church and became known as Hanare Kirishitan, retaining their own traditional beliefs and keeping their ancestors’ religion. Even with a revived church and repeated efforts of reconcilliation on the parts of missionaries, fear of persecution and the strength of their indigenious traditions prompted some to remain aloof from the revived church - and many of those "seperated Christian" groups didn't even talk to one another due to having suspicions of one another/not knowing who to trust.

It's truly, IMHO, a work of God that an imperfect expression of the Faith existed, without priests or basically any sacraments except marriage and baptism, for centuries. And yet those refusing to embrace a fully Catholic life as it was prior to the exile of Christians - after the ban on Christianity was done and the Church was allowed back in during the late 19th century - all seem to have some strong pyschological reasons influencing them outside of choice alone.

In their minds, they never altered themselves from what was entrusted to them before persecution - and feeling abandoned by the outside world / the Catholic Church at large to handle themselves (whether fairly or unfairly percieved), I tended to empathize with them in why they seemed so resistant..and why perhaps a lot of patience was needed. For in their minds, they truly feel like they the rest of the world has evolved while they remained the same.

Some of their views - such as the view of Two Virgin Mary figures and the syncretism - cannot be reconciled with Church Tradition or the scriptures Perhaps it was the case in times past that participation in Buddhist rituals was done simply for appearance's sake (which wouldn't be anymore problematic than what happens in China today when Christians ask for support/have dummy businesses - like advertisng themselves as a music school but secretly being a front for believers gathering resources) - but post late 1800s, it seemed that trying to hide themselves became completely unnecessary and more of a maintenance of identity .

In my understanding, it can be hard to get out of a "UnderCover" mindset and easy to do what happens to agents in the field where sharp events happen that can cause ammnesia and cause them to buy their own cover story).

Am I making sense in what I'm seeking to convey? Again, I'm not trying to say they're justified in all they do - but I guess it has been a struggle seeing the ways many seem to almost demonize them for being who they are and yet the pyschological/cultural influences that helped to shape their mindset seem to not be ...acknowledged. And from what I could see in the scriptures, it seemed that even others in their group who died for the Lord would be remembered rather than ignored due to how they may not be a perfect expression of faith. ...just as many throughout the scriptures were far from perfect and yet they were included in the line of Christ (Matthew 1, Hebrews 11, etc.)
Psalm 116:15
Precious in the sight of the Lordis the death of his saints.
Psalm 116:14-16
Psalm 72:14
He will rescue them from oppression and violence, for precious is their blood in his sight.
Psalm 72:13-15
What are your thoughts?
 
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Rhamiel

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the Catholic Church recognizes the martyrs of Japan as saints
Twenty-six Martyrs of Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How have these "hidden christians" left Christian orthdoxy?
the idea that there are two virgin marys is incorrect, is there any other heterodoxy?

I would like to learn more about Shintoism, I do not know much about it, I know that it is a collection of worship of nature spirits and ancestors

I do know a good deal about Japanese folklore, but not about Shintoism
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I had not heard of them,
Really? I thought many in Catholicism were aware of them - but I guess you learn something new everyday:)

thanks for finding the most interesting stuff!
Thanks for always sharing the insights and glad to know what is shared gives something to think about.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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the Catholic Church recognizes the martyrs of Japan as saints
Twenty-six Martyrs of Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cool to know :)

How have these "hidden christians" left Christian orthdoxy?
the idea that there are two virgin marys is incorrect, is there any other heterodoxy?
I think a lot of people have issue with the ways they have chosen to present the Gospel in terms the culture uses, although I've seen this occur in differing levels with inculturation and early Christianity.

The two Virgin Marys was pretty astounding when seeing their support of such - as I'm not certain as to how that'd logically work itself out if believing that connected with Christ.

I would like to learn more about Shintoism, I do not know much about it, I know that it is a collection of worship of nature spirits and ancestors
It is another world entirely, although you have a good bit of it down. Did a presentation on it last year and it was fascinating to see how much of Shintoism was present in modern media games today - Pokemon being amongst the top games for it (even having a Shinto Shrine)
I do know a good deal about Japanese folklore, but not about Shintoism
Would love to hear on what you know on Japanese folklore sometime :)
 
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Rhamiel

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Gxg (G²);62354046 said:
It is another world entirely, although you have a good bit of it down. Did a presentation on it last year and it was fascinating to see how much of Shintoism was present in modern media games today - Pokemon being amongst the top games for it (even having a Shinto Shrine) Would love to hear on what you know on Japanese folklore sometime :)

Well I like learning about folk tales and fairy tales
Japan folklore has monsters called Yokai, they seem similar to celtic fairies in some ways, being a varied collection of odd creatures

speaking of Pokemon, the Pokemon Ninetails is almost identical to the Yokai called Kitsune, this being is also related to Shintoism by being a symbol of the rice god
 
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I would like to learn more about Shintoism, I do not know much about it, I know that it is a collection of worship of nature spirits and ancestors

I do know a good deal about Japanese folklore, but not about Shintoism
Shintoism is truly an interesting thing to tackle. Learned more about it after seeing certain aspects present in films like "The Last Samurai" (more shared here, here, and here) - and, as shared before, was even more tripped out when seeing the ways it was present in many popular games in the U.S such as Pokemon. Shinto teaches that that all natural features were felt to have a god behind their power. And many Shinto beliefs were incorporated into Japanese Buddhist practices after its introduction in the 6th century. Some places I've investigated have been the following:

Additionally, if interested, as it concerns seeing some of the ways followers of Shintoism was played out in action, one book I'd HIGHLY recommend is entitled If I Perish





Had to read it for a mission trip I took in 2011 to Jamaica...and it was truly amazing seeing what was going on in other parts of the world of others during the times of the Holocaust/previously.

It's by a woman known as Ahn Ei Sook, a wealthy industrialist's frail daughter and Christian school teacher who set out in 1939 on an incredible journey from Pyongyang to Tokyo to make Japanese leaders aware of the Japanese atrocities against Korean Christians.

In bold defiance of the tyrannical command to bow to the pagan Japanese shrines. For this she was condemned to a living death in the filth and degradation of a Japanese prison. Although she was imprisoned and tormented for many years, her determination and fortitude never diminished....but she never lost her faith and ended up winning MANY prisoners (and captors) to the Lord. After being released from prison, she married Don Kim and together they toured the United States and Europe to tell about God's sustaining power during six harrowing but triumphant years in Japanese prisons (1939-1945).

What occurred with Japan's War Crimes (an Asian Holocaust)/the believers who were impacted is amazing--especially in light of how Japan became one of the world's only countries where Jews could find refuge from the Holocaust, despite Japan's alliance with Nazi Germany...and many Jews survived there, despite Japan's actions to other Asians all in the name of ensuring that Shintoism be adhered to.

And as another said in review of the "If I Perish" book (brief excerpt):
We have read much about the brutality of the Germans against the French During World War II, and of the Japanese against the Chinese, but we do not have many accounts of what the Japanese did to the Koreans. During their war with China in the 1930’s, the Japanese realized the importance of Korea as a geographical link. They conquered Korea, and began to completely subjugate the country, forcing the Koreans to support their armies. They also tried to force their Japanese culture on the Koreans. Everyone was forced to speak Japanese. They were forced to give their children Japanese names. One of the many things that became obligatory for the Koreans was to worship at the Shinto shrines. Each shrine contained a picture of the Japanese emperor and a picture of the Japanese sun goddess.

Korean Christians had to make a choice. Refusal to obey would result in arrest, harassment, and financial hardship for the families, because they would be outcasts. Some Christians saw the act of bowing as a sign of respect for the Emperor and merely a political expedient. But many Christians, like Ahn Ei Sook, would not bow to the shrine.

For reference:


Although severely persecuted, she preached righteousness/truth and saw MANY salvations...and even prior to Japan's defeat, had seen others prophesy about it being destroyed by fire--not knowing about what'd happen later with the atomic bomb.

Seeing what the Japanese did to those who did not accept Shintoism (including treating the Emperor as if he was a god to be worshiped ), there is definately a lot on the religion that I don't look favorably on. But I can see where others are coming from when saying it's better better to dialouge than demonize. Fr. Yuji Sugawara S.J - a Jesuit priest - said the following:

"...being a Shintoist is above all a cultural inheritance. As there is no ‘shintoist baptism,’ it is impossible to tell how many people are still really practicing. For the same reason, the Japanese do not feel truly identified with their traditional religion and show a profound interest for Christianity. Many request marriage in the Church....Dialogue is more of a peaceful and friendly encounter. Above all, it is a spiritual encounter, in the sense of the will to pray, in respecting differences. In a secularized nation like Japan, the people today no longer pray. Thus, prayer takes on a great significance, above all for a traditional religion like Shintoism, where prayer is more important than ethics. There is also an apostolic activity that is sustained by the mutual collaboration on charitable themes and aid. Lastly, there is an abundance of well-prepared studies available on the two religions. Although, I think the truest encounter happens in the day-to-day, with simple co-existence.
It seemed on some level that the Hidden Christians tried this - abeit being forced to do so by circumstances on many levels ....
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Well I like learning about folk tales and fairy tales
Me too..

Folk history is very fascinating to me since it helps to understand the human psyche..
Japan folklore has monsters called Yokai, they seem similar to celtic fairies in some ways, being a varied collection of odd creatures

speaking of Pokemon, the Pokemon Ninetails is almost identical to the Yokai called Kitsune, this being is also related to Shintoism by being a symbol of the rice god
Not surprising since the game Pokemon was expressely based in Shintoism and one of the levels was called the Shinto Shrine.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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and thank you, my dear brother in Christ, for creating an interesting thread and sharing a good video with us
Glad it was something that was a benefit and not otherwise - and thank you for sharing your insights, as it helps me to process on the issue:)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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the Catholic Church recognizes the martyrs of Japan as saints
Twenty-six Martyrs of Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How have these "hidden christians" left Christian orthdoxy?
the idea that there are two virgin marys is incorrect, is there any other heterodoxy?
Would the Hidden Christians - despite where they may be off base on some things - still be considered as being recognized for martyrdom whenever they were found/killed during their extensive isolation from the world?
 
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Rhamiel

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Gxg (G²);62359926 said:
Would the Hidden Christians - despite where they may be off base on some things - still be considered as being recognized for martyrdom whenever they were found/killed during their extensive isolation from the world?

I do not know, I know that the ones who the Church does recognize as martyrs were Christians
 
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WarriorAngel

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I have to go to bed - but figured i'd tune in later.

Off topic - how do you do this name? ~~> Gxg (G²) My keyboard doesnt do that.

And finally - welcome to OBOB. Hope someone helps you.

Being underground - are the same as the time of St Francis?
How are they different? And do we know they are different? Or are we different?

I just need some quick answers - to what makes them different and not an article.... just cut it down to a paragraph. Thanks.

Blessings
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I have to go to bed - but figured i'd tune in later.

Off topic - how do you do this name? ~~> Gxg (G²) My keyboard doesnt do that.
Not certain what you mean - as all I did was copy & paste the symbol for squared and add that to G. Did so for years - and on other forums, they had the option of making the squaring function available. As I've posted elsewhere, I simply copied what I did and put it here.

But I rarely (if ever) have tried to find the symbol on my computer keyboard since it's way too much for me to do :)..and on a serious note, if you ever wonder how to say the latter part of the name (G-squared), no worries. Gxg is fine.

Being underground - are the same as the time of St Francis?
How are they different? And do we know they are different? Or are we different?

I just need some quick answers - to what makes them different and not an article.... just cut it down to a paragraph. Thanks.
No offense - but as none of the answers given that I found were "quick" , one will have to go back/deal with what was given since what has already been said addresses it as best as possible.

The video from earlier that I supplied/went through to give clarity on the matter is the quickest thing you could use to get answers on your questions. But some immediate differences that come to mind (As noted earlier) are the belief in Two Virgin Marys, the use of Imagery in Shintoism for expressing Christian thoughts and other things. After Commodore Matthew Perry used gun boat diplomacy to force the Tokugawa shogunate in Edo to open its doors to trade, it was revealed that even after two hundred years of suppression there were still tens of thousands of practising Christians in Japan. Many of the rites and rituals which had been taught to them by St. Francis Xavier and the other Jesuit missionaries were still in use but having been transmitted as an oral tradition they survived only in a highly mutated form.

For some examples, as it concerns where they took trappings of the religious faiths above ground/practiced one way while taking the true Christian Faith underground/hiding it:

07-1179AYBG300.jpg


Maria-Kannon: The Virgin Mary portrayed in the form of the
bodhisattva Kuan Yin who is known in Japan as Kannon.


In Chinese and Japanese Buddhism, Kuan Yin is a deity of compassion and mercy and is often depicted with small children who serve as her assistants. These children can at times be impish and mischievous and one of them "Red Boy" caused Sun Wukong (aka Monkey) quite a lot of trouble in the Chinese novel A Journey to the West.

In the above image, the child depicted is really the infant Jesus Christ. And that is one example amongst many others of where they practiced Crypto-Christianity...
 
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