Kaba

kjf512 said:

AND there are springs!

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Geesh you certainly have a bad idea of what a spring of water is. You showed pictures of "a river, stream, or canal" of water in Israel, not in the Valley of Baca. I am still waiting to see where the valley of Baca is at.

The springs being spoken about are wells or fountains kid :

fountain, springs, well, http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=04599

kjf512 said:

1. The end of the pilgrimage is Zion (v. 7). This is, of course, Jerusalem and not Mecca.

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What is the meaning of the Hebrew word Zion ? Since you wanted to play semantic games with the word Baca, so what is the meaning of Zion ? Doesnt it mean desert or a parched place ?

kjf512 said:

yup, but this is talking about the Koahites pilgrimage to JERUSALEM. it's speaking of the KOAHITES.

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1. I find it rather interesting that kjf, a Christian, I think, would come so far as to say that the Psalms, or part of it, was not written by David but the Korahites. I wonder if this is supported by Christians in general. Were the Korahites inspired by the holy spirit?

2. Running away from answering questions (or blocking my name) is not the intelligent way to discuss issues. The questions would leave a lingering shadow over the inability of some to substantiate his/her points.

3. I still have the difficulty of understanding how it became the ritual of the Jews (the Korahites in the case of kjf) to first pass to the Valley of Baca before going to Jerusalem. This is nowhere in the pilgrimage rituals of the Jews.

4. If the Book of Psalms is about King David (and most Christians have no problems to that), why would the Jews (or the Korahites) end their pilgrimage at Zion, the Jewish Temple that kjf pointed to, when we all know that at the time of David, the Jewish Temple was not built. kjf never had an answer to this!

5. Lastly, and a controvesial one too, is there any possibility that David while being chased by King Saul had travelled to Paran and Arabia and had seen the Valley of Baca himself?

YOU GUYS ARE SO FREAKING INGORANT.

I JUST POSTED WHERE THE VALLEY OF TEARS(weeping) IS.IT IS NEAR THE GOLAN HEIGHTS. AND THE PICS I POSTED WERE FROM THE VALLEY OF WEEPING. QUIT TRYING TO CHANGE WHAT I FREAKING SAY AND ACCEPT THE DAMN FACT

Oxy2Hydr0 said:

Geesh you certainly have a bad idea of what a spring of water is. You showed pictures of "a river, stream, or canal" of water in Israel, not in the Valley of Baca. I am still waiting to see where the valley of Baca is at.

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I almost fell out of my chair looking at how a river can become a spring. lol

ALSO:

I just talked to a Rebbe, and he told me that it is actually talking about mourning of the destruction of the temple. here is the chat log..

Start Time: Wed Jun 27 20:27:29 GMT-08:00 2007
End Time: Wed Jun 27 20:37:54 GMT-08:00 2007
______________________________________
Rabbi Dov Mandel: Welcome. Please type your question and I will respond shortly.
kjf512: ov.rei be.e.mek ha.ba.kha ma.yan ye.shi.tu.hu gam-be.ra.khot ya.te mo.re:
kjf512: As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools. (Psalm 84:6) What is the valley of Baca?.
Rabbi Dov Mandel: Let me look it up
kjf512: thanks
kjf512: msg 1
kjf512: k
kjf512: msg 2
Rabbi Dov Mandel: The valley of weeping
kjf512: where is that?
Rabbi Dov Mandel: Transgressors in the valley of weeping make it into a fountain; also with blessings they enwrap [their] Teacher.
Rabbi Dov Mandel: 84:7
kjf512: so where is the valley of weeping geographically? do you know?
Rabbi Dov Mandel: You can find the entire psalms translated on chabad.org
Rabbi Dov Mandel: I don't know that it is referring to a literal place
kjf512: oh. now is this talking about pilgrims making their way to Jerusalem to the temple?
Rabbi Dov Mandel: one sec
kjf512: k thanks
Rabbi Dov Mandel: This psalm is written mourning the destruction of the temple
kjf512: ohhhh, that makes snese. haha i see. thanks a lot! Shalom!

SO, PERHAPS THE WORD BECA IS JUST SAYING THAT THEY WERE WEEPING THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE.

1. For the conductor, on the gittith, of the sons of Korah, a song.


2. How beloved are Your dwelling places, O Lord of Hosts!
How beloved are Your dwelling places How beloved and dear are Your dwelling places!

3. My soul yearns, yea, it pines for the courts of the Lord; my heart and my flesh pray fervently to the living God.
yearns Heb. נכספה Desires.
pines Heb. כלתה, desires, as (II Sam. 13:39): “And [the soul of] King David longed (ותכ&#1500 to go forth to Absalom.”
for the courts of the Lord for they have been destroyed, and he says this regarding the exile.
my heart and my flesh pray fervently They pray for this.

4. Even a bird found a house and a swallow her nest, where she placed her chicks upon Your altars, O Lord of Hosts, my King and my God.
Even a bird found a house In its ruins, the birds have nested. According to Midrash Aggadah (Mid. Ps. 84:2), it speaks of [the Temple] when it is built, and the bird is the nation of Israel.

5. Fortunate are those who stay in Your house; they will continually praise You forever.
Fortunate is he who will yet merit to dwell in Your house, and they will yet praise you in its midst.

6. Fortunate is the man who has strength in You, in whose heart are the highways.
who has strength in You Who has made You the strength of his trust.
in whose heart are the highways Who thinks in his heart the paving of his ways, to straighten his way.

7. Transgressors in the valley of weeping make it into a fountain; also with blessings they enwrap [their] Teacher.
Transgressors in the valley of weeping Those who transgress Your law behold, they are in the depth of Gehinnom with weeping and wailing.
make it into a fountain with the tears of their eyes.
also with blessings they enwrap [their] Teacher They bless and thank His name and say, “He judged us fairly, and His judgment is true.” (Another explanation: Shem Ephraim) And the one who taught us to follow the good way enwraps us with blessings, but we did not obey him.

8. They go from host to host; he will appear to God in Zion.
They go from host to host Those mentioned above, who dwell in Your house, in whose heart are the highways.
from host to host From the study-hall to the synagogue, and their host and army will appear to the Hole One, blessed be He, in Zion.

9. O Lord, God of Hosts, hearken to my prayer; bend Your ear, O God of Jacob, forever.
hearken to my prayer to build Your house.

10. See our shield, O God, and look at the face of Your anointed.
our shield That is the Temple, which protects us.
look at the face of David Your anointed, and ponder his acts of kindness and his toil, by which he toiled and wearied himself in its building.

11. For a day in Your courts is better than a thousand; I chose to sit on the threshold of the house of My God rather than dwell in tents of wickedness.
For a day is better [To live] one [day] in Your courts and die the next [is better than] to live a thousand years someplace else.
I chose to sit on the threshold Heb. הסתופף, to sit habitually on the threshold and by the doorpost.
rather than dwell in tents of wickedness rather than dwell tranquilly in the tents of the wicked Esau, to cleave to them.

12. For a sun and a shield is the Lord God; the Lord will give grace and glory; He will not withhold good from those who go with sincerity.
For a sun and a shield שמש may be interpreted according to its apparent meaning, but Midrash Psalms interprets it as an expression of the points of the wall.

13. O Lord of Hosts, fortunate is the man who trusts in You.

kjf512 said:

SO, PERHAPS THE WORD BECA IS JUST SAYING THAT THEY WERE WEEPING THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE.

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What temple? At the time of King David, the Jewish Temple has not been built.

Islam_mulia said:

What temple? At the time of King David, the Jewish Temple has not been built.

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The first one had just been destroyed

kjf512 said:

The first one had just been destroyed

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You must be kidding me!

The first Temple was built by Solomon, the son of King David.

Peace to you. Hope you doing well. Perhaps you did not comprehend the Anglo tounge which I typed. I will say to you in simple language then.. Islam is for the world yes. Everyone can spread Islam yes. We should first tell the people what Islam says and let them comprehend that. Thereafter if need be research like my fellow muslims on CF are doing and show to the Jews and Christians the link between our faiths. Islam is open to all who wish to be saved from falsehood and saved from punishment in the hereafter. God guides whom he wills. And great work islam mulia and others!

kjf512 said:

It makes no mention of mecca either. Now tell me.. is bacca the word for mecca in hebrew?

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No, Baka is the hebrew name of the Arabic name Bakkah. Both words are derived from the same identicle root and have the same identicle meaning.

has arafat ever been referred to as zion?

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No, however it does stand in Zion ie a parched place

in the Bible, it means Jerusalem.
Zi·on /ˈzaɪ

ən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[zahy-uh

n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a hill in Jerusalem, on which the Temple was built (used to symbolize the city itself, esp. as a religious or spiritual center). 2.the Jewish people. 3.Palestine as the Jewish homeland and symbol of Judaism.
Zion came to designate the area of Jerusalem where the fortress stood, and later became a metonym for Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, the city of Jerusalem and the entire Promised Land to come, in which, according to the Hebrew Bible, God dwells among his chosen people.

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Thats what it came to mean. It original had no bearing to Jerusalem :

The first biblical mention of 'Zion' is Deut. 4.48 and is another name for Mount Hermon in Lebanon. This 'Zion' derives from 'Sirion,' a name given to the mountain by the Sidonians. This Zion is referred to again in Psalm 133.3 when the poet compares brotherly love to 'the dew of Hermon coming down on the mountains of Zion.'

http://www.angelfire.com/az3/newzone/zion1.html

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Lebanon is hundred of milesnorth west of Jerusalem.

Tell me.. does anyone live at the hajj? nope.

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Wrong, plenty of homes are built on the grounds of the Masjid where people live :

we're not discussing matar here.

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Same concept applies.

Ok, so let's accept that it means weeping. That still does not mean mecca. It could mean anywhere near Jerusalem

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Where is this location on a map or anchient Biblical Map ? Would you like to google it ?

Yes you did. in that discussion that we had and ther admins deleted it, you said that I denied the "gospel of barnabas." And i LOLed you

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You are getting what I said mixed up. I used the Gospel of Baranabas as analogy to a discussion we were having. I did not state that it was authentic, it is not authentic, I have never stated it was authentic.

If you side kick Liberate was here he would tell you I do not believe the Gospel of Baranabas is authentic cause him and I debated on this issue back in 2004 on another forum

H2O said:

Actually no. The Gospel of Barnabas contradicts Quran to which it is in the same boat like the rest of the other so called gospels.
http://www.freejesus.net/home/viewtopic.php?p=40530#40530

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I have sent you the link to this old forum post debate between Liberate and my self. You are misquoting what I said.

There is also a place called "bekaa valley" in LEBANON

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Ah now we're talking. It isnt in Jerusalem is it ? So where is the house of worship in that Bekaa valley in Lebanon and where people make pilgrimage to ?

kjf512 said:

YOU GUYS ARE SO FREAKING INGORANT.

I JUST POSTED WHERE THE VALLEY OF TEARS(weeping) IS.IT IS NEAR THE GOLAN HEIGHTS. AND THE PICS I POSTED WERE FROM THE VALLEY OF WEEPING. QUIT TRYING TO CHANGE WHAT I FREAKING SAY AND ACCEPT THE DAMN FACT

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Lebanon is hundreds of miles away from Jerusalem. There is notsuch thing as a Jewish pilgrimage that passed through the Bekaa VAlley in Lebanon where there is a house of worship. Infact there has never been a house of worship in that valley.

Also just to let your know the Bekaa is spelled completely different word not of the same root as Baca and Bakkah in the Bible and the Quran which are both derived from the same root.

Bekaa is an Arabic word spelled ba'a, qaf, alif, aiyn . It has nothing to do with the Biblical Baca and Quranic Bakkah nor is it derived from thesame root. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beqaa_Valley

Islam_mulia said:

I almost fell out of my chair looking at how a river can become a spring. lol

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Tell me about it. Not to mention many of the Bible translations render it as "wells", he even quoted a translation that uses "wells" but yet shows a canal stream of water in Israel.

And mecca is hundreds of miles away from Jerusalem too!

I am accepting your word as Weeping. And I am accepted that my original interperetation was totally wrong.

After speaking to the Rebbe and reading commentary, I have come to realize that the people are MOURNING AND ARE WEEPING the destruction of the Temple. and that is why the word baca is being used here. Just because it sounds similar to the arabic word "bakkah" does not mean that it is referring to that.

They were weeping because of the destruction of the temple.

and btw, I also showed you that near the golan heights in Israel there is a place called VALLEY OF TEARS and called like evern backha or something. so even if it wasn't speaking of mourning of the destruction of the temple (which it is) but even if it was not, it would be referring to that.

kjf512 said:

kjf512: As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools. (Psalm 84:6) What is the valley of Baca?....

Rabbi Dov Mandel: The valley of weeping

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SO much for your Baca meaning Mulberry Trees

kjf512 said:

kjf512: so where is the valley of weeping geographically? do you know?

Rabbi Dov Mandel: I don't know that it is referring to a literal place

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The Rabbia doesnt even know at this moment cause there is no known place in Jerusalem called teh valley of Baca.

kjf512 said:

kjf512: oh. now is this talking about pilgrims making their way to Jerusalem to the temple?

Rabbi Dov Mandel: This psalm is written mourning the destruction of the temple

kjf512: ohhhh, that makes snese. haha i see. thanks a lot! Shalom!

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yes yes it makes so much sence to mourn over the disctruction of a temple when it hasnt even been built or destroyed yet.

Also many commentators state it is refereing the pilgrims

kjf512 said:

SO, PERHAPS THE WORD BECA IS JUST SAYING THAT THEY WERE WEEPING THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE.

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Or perhaps the word Beca is a valley where people weap while passing through the house of worship during their pilgrimage.

Ask any muslim who is a Hajji, when passing through Bakkah the pilgrims are weaping while saying Labaik Allahumma Labaik. One cannot help but to weap when ariving at the blessed bakkah.

I will finish this up later with you, my wife is getting agroed of me staying to long on this thing. Later... and assalaamu alaikum Islam_Mulia

kjf512 said:

7. Transgressors in the valley of weeping make it into a fountain; also with blessings they enwrap [their] Teacher.
Transgressors in the valley of weeping Those who transgress Your law behold, they are in the depth of Gehinnom with weeping and wailing.
make it into a fountain with the tears of their eyes.
also with blessings they enwrap [their] Teacher They bless and thank His name and say, “He judged us fairly, and His judgment is true.” (Another explanation: Shem Ephraim) And the one who taught us to follow the good way enwraps us with blessings, but we did not obey him.

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Funny, I went directly to the Jewish Tanakh and this is what is says:

1 For the Leader; upon the Gittith. A Psalm of the sons of Korah.
2 How lovely are Thy tabernacles, O HaShem of hosts!
3 My soul yearneth, yea, even pineth for the courts of HaShem; my heart and my flesh sing for joy unto the living G-d.
4 Yea, the sparrow hath found a house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young; Thine altars, O HaShem of hosts, my King, and my G-d--.
5 Happy are they that dwell in Thy house, they are ever praising Thee. Selah
6 Happy is the man whose strength is in Thee; in whose heart are the highways.
7 Passing through the valley of Baca they make it a place of springs; yea, the early rain clotheth it with blessings.
8 They go from strength to strength, every one of them appeareth before G-d in Zion.
9 O HaShem G-d of hosts, hear my prayer; give ear, O G-d of Jacob. Selah
10 Behold, O G-d our shield, and look upon the face of Thine anointed.
11 For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand; I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my G-d, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.
12 For HaShem G-d is a sun and a shield; HaShem giveth grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly.
13 O HaShem of hosts, happy is the man that trusteth in Thee.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Psalms84.html

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kjf512 said:

and btw, I also showed you that near the golan heights in Israel there is a place called VALLEY OF TEARS and called like evern backha or something. so even if it wasn't speaking of mourning of the destruction of the temple (which it is) but even if it was not, it would be referring to that.

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I answered this:

Oxy2Hydr0 post 74 said:

Also just to let your know the Bekaa is spelled completely different word not of the same root as Baca and Bakkah in the Bible and the Quran which are both derived from the same root.

Bekaa is an Arabic word spelled ba'a, qaf, alif, aiyn . It has nothing to do with the Biblical Baca and Quranic Bakkah nor is it derived from thesame root. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beqaa_Valley

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Now I am off to bed