K of C / Freemasonry

[Albion]

True...... but at the highest levels apparently a twist is put on scripture that leaves a high level Mason with a very different view of everything that Jesus said.

Tell us all about it, then.

I have read a hundred claims about the secret doings and etc. that supposedly exist at some imaginary higher level of Masonry...and I have found that, on examination, none of them holds up.

For example.... read about the teachings of Thomas Malthus on how he justified going directly against the teachings of Jesus regarding feeding and helping the poor.

Malthusian catastrophe - Wikipedia

What would that have to do with Masonry?

 

[DennisTate]

Tell us all about it, then.

I have read a hundred claims about the secret doings and etc. that supposedly exist at some imaginary higher level of Masonry...and I have found that, on examination, none of them holds up.



What would that have to do with Masonry?

I have not yet bothered with any sort of indepth study on Masonry but if you take a look at the ideas on economics of Thomas Malthus he basically attempted to negate the teaching of Jesus regarding the poor by saying that if the aristocrats of England treat the poor too well...... they will only overpopulate and cause an eventual famine, pestilence or warfare.... a Malthusian Disaster.

Now I have to admit that he would be well versed in many of the pagan traditions that the British Empire would confront as it expanded around the world so there is logic in his ideas but...... he still comes up with reasoning that teaches that the teachings of Jesus are naive and incorrect and that the aristocrats must go to a higher level of wisdom and understanding than a simple reading of the gospels would imply.

On at least one level.. .I have to admit that the Bible needs to be looked at on a deeper level than the usual.

Sabbath observance under extreme conditions....

I just want to say that I am truly sorry for all those years that I was close to believing in near total pacifism! Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua once asked a question of the Scribes and Pharisees that should have made it obvious to me that an extreme situation can call for drastic action by a Christian or Jew who feels called into a life in the military or police!


Mark 3:4 "And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace."

I am almost certain that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was referring to the situation faced by the Machabees when Greco - Syrian armies were attacking Jewish communities on the Sabbath.

One community had refused to fight back....but the Machabees....in my opinion correctly judged that this is a violation of an admonition by King Solomon:


Ecclesiastes 7:16 "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?"


Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, 1 Machabees Chapter 2
...
"So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. [39] And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. [40] And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.

[41] And they determined in that day, saying: Whosoever shall come up against us to fight on the sabbath day, we will fight against him: and we will not all die, as our brethren that were slain in the secret places."

 

[Albion]

I have not yet bothered with any sort of indepth study on Masonry but if you take a look at the ideas on economics of Thomas Malthus he basically attempted to negate the teaching of Jesus regarding the poor by saying that if the aristocrats of England treat the poor too well...... they will only overpopulate and cause an eventual famine, pestilence or warfare.... a Malthusian Disaster.

Now I have to admit that he would be well versed in many of the pagan traditions that the British Empire would confront as it expanded around the world so there is logic in his ideas but...... he still comes up with reasoning that teaches that the teachings of Jesus are naive and incorrect and that the aristocrats must go to a higher level of wisdom and understanding than a simple reading of the gospels would imply.

On at least one level.. .I have to admit that the Bible needs to be looked at on a deeper level than the usual.

Sabbath observance under extreme conditions....

Okay, but what does that have to do with Masonry?

 

[DennisTate]

Okay, but what does that have to do with Masonry?

You will have to do your research to answer that yourself but this may help:

Pray for Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to open your mind and heart...... and do your research.......
and see if you begin to look at this differently?


We must repent for what is going on UNDER our land!

I ran into what may turn out to be an indirect Praise Report from down under........
regarding what was reported by a near death experiencer Kevin Zadai.

In Australia he was shown that he and a group of pastors were supposed to go and take
communion in the places where the Masons met..... and where the witches met........
and since they did this about a year ago....... it does seem that Australia is being led to
a whole new level of AWAKENING???????????

Please notice what is reported here in this video from the 1:15:00 mark to about the 1:25:00 minute mark in this video:

How much longer will growth of Antarcic ice save our coastlands?

How much longer will growth of Antarcic ice save our coastlands?

What will save us is Christians waking up and repenting. 2 Chronicles 7:14 It's been pouring down rain in many drought stricken areas recently. I mow the lawn, turn around and it's growing already. OK, slight exaggeration. Many Christians have been fasting and praying. A number of miracles occurred during the terrible bushfires and now those fires are out. Dams are filling and farmers are rejoicing. Greenies will be frustrated. They want to send the world back to the stone age!

 

[Albion]

You will have to do your research to answer that yourself but this may help:

Well, I have done so. That's why I noticed that the contents of that post had nothing to do with Freemasonry.

 

[DennisTate]

Well, I have done so. That's why I noticed that the contents of that post had nothing to do with Freemasonry.

We are all only human......
we all have some biases... and low level
Masonic practices and teachings are very different than the
Masonic teachings at the very highest levels.

And for the record...... I am not saying that they are one hundred percent incorrect in their ideas either but................
each of us has a responsibility to use the metaphorical Sword..... the Bible.... accurately..... which can be challenging?????

Could Satan to some degree be like Stanley Milgram Ph.D?


One implication of all this is that Satan may ADMIRE Mr. John Ramirez........ and hold his most obedient followers in CONTEMPT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????

 

[Albion]

We are all only human......
we all have some biases... and low level
Masonic practices and teachings are very different than the
Masonic teachings at the very highest levels.

The "highest level" is the third degree, which is what almost every Mason is. I don't want to jump down your throat about his, but it really is wrong to just repeat what is printed in some conspiracy theory website.

 

[DennisTate]

The "highest level" is the third degree, which is what almost every Mason is. I don't want to jump down your throat about his, but it really is wrong to just repeat what is printed in some conspiracy theory website.

I was told that there is a thirty third degree which gets into some pretty controversial information.

Do a search for Thomas Malthus and you can read about a guy who basically argues against the idea of Jesus regarding giving charity to the poor...... .based on his rather elitist ideas that if the poor are treated too well........ they will over populate.... and induce a Malthusian Catastrophe!?

Malthusian catastrophe - Wikipedia

A Malthusian catastrophe (also known as Malthusian check, Malthusian crisis, Malthusian spectre or Malthusian crunch) occurs when population growth outpaces agricultural production.

A Malthusian or neo-Malthusian would tend to find this idea really annoying:

Could a Basic Minimum Income for all Americans decrease abortions?

 

[Albion]

I was told that there is a thirty third degree which gets into some pretty controversial information.

Some Masons belong to a related organization (Scottish Rite Masonry), which has 32 degrees plus one honorary one that is given to a few people for long service, etc. The Scottish Rite is not, however, higher than Master Mason, the 3rd degree, and most Masons are not members in the Scottish Rite or any of the other affiliated groups.

Do a search for Thomas Malthus and you can read about a guy who basically argues against the idea of Jesus regarding giving charity to the poor...... .based on his rather elitist ideas that if the poor are treated too well........ they will over populate.... and induce a Malthusian Catastrophe!?

I am aware of Malthus and his ideas but I don't believe he was a Mason and, in any case, what he wrote concerning charity or whatever has nothing to do with Masonry. Masonic charities in this country contribute many millions of dollars in charity annually, without regard to race, creed, or national origin.

 

[Rick Otto]

The "highest level" is the third degree, which is what almost every Mason is. I don't want to jump down your throat about his, but it really is wrong to just repeat what is printed in some conspiracy theory website.

Hilarious.
A glancing knowledge of the theory at issue will obviate that all masons will reflexively deny, either out of ignorance or collusion.
In any case, it is folly on the very surface to accept witness from a member of a secret society, no matter how open or inconsequential they claim their secrets to be.
So... it is really wrong to just repeat what is printed in some secret society brochure.
There was a legitimate anti-masonic political movement in this country at one time.
So much for it being a 'benign fraternity'.

 

[Albion]

Hilarious.
A glancing knowledge of the theory at issue will obviate that all masons will reflexively deny

Hi, Rick. Unfortunately, that seems to be what you rely upon--a glancing knowledge.

What we should all aspire to, if we are going to start making posts that claim to be accurate, is something better than third or fourth hand hearsay.

 

[Rick Otto]

Hi, Rick. Unfortunately, that seems to be what you rely upon--a glancing knowledge.

What we should all aspire to, if we are going to start making posts that claim to be accurate, is something better than third or fourth hand hearsay.

Hi Albion, yes, fortunately you're angle of approach is so fundamentally shallow, I can shoot your fallacious protestations down from my hip with only a glance.
It is at once admirable and stupefying how condescencion & opacity can coexist in full stride.
Thank you for rendering me teachable.

 

[DennisTate]

Some Masons belong to a related organization (Scottish Rite Masonry), which has 32 degrees plus one honorary one that is given to a few people for long service, etc. The Scottish Rite is not, however, higher than Master Mason, the 3rd degree, and most Masons are not members in the Scottish Rite or any of the other affiliated groups.


I am aware of Malthus and his ideas but I don't believe he was a Mason and, in any case, what he wrote concerning charity or whatever has nothing to do with Masonry. Masonic charities in this country contribute many millions of dollars in charity annually, without regard to race, creed, or national origin.

Good points ........
but each denomination have a percentage of people who take the pride in their denomination too far. I am guilty of doing that myself..........
pride is a very dangerous emotion although there is a good form of it.

Pride in our denomination can lead us to come dangerously close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in the same sense as when the Scribes and Pharisees accused Messiah Yeshua - Jesus of doing miracles by the power of Baalzebub!


An apology from a former member of the Worldwide Church of God

 

[Albion]

Good points ........
but each denomination have a percentage of people who take the pride in their denomination too far. I am guilty of doing that myself..........
pride is a very dangerous emotion although there is a good form of it.

We can all agree with you there, but I am not sure how what you are saying relates to the Knights of Columbus or the Masons or any other such fraternal organization. (?)

Pride in our denomination can lead us to come dangerously close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in the same sense as when the Scribes and Pharisees accused Messiah Yeshua - Jesus of doing miracles by the power of Baalzebub!


An apology from a former member of the Worldwide Church of God

 

[DennisTate]

We can all agree with you there, but I am not sure how what you are saying relates to the Knights of Columbus or the Masons or any other such fraternal organization. (?)

And.... it is certainly not a salvation issue...... so I don't think that it matters much how informed either you or I are on it. I read a couple of chapters in a couple of books on the basic idea and I tended to take the authors seriously but......... I really am not overly concerned about this question myself.

I took the authors seriously because of a much larger picture that they painted that made sense to me and fitted with what I suspect the full conflict between the fallen angelic kingdom and the kingdom of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus really is.

Have you ever read about the four realms shown to near death experiencer Dr. George Ritchie back in 1943 decades before String Theory postulated invisible dimensions of space and time?

Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

b. His Guided Tour of the Earthbound Realm with Jesus

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie's tour of the Earthbound Realm: Then Jesus begins to take Ritchie on a journey through various realms of the afterlife. They fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. They witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to grab a cigarette from the workers who were oblivious to her presence. This woman had died severely addicted to cigarettes and was now cut off from the one thing she desperately desired most.



Ritchie realizes how the spirits in these realms immediately know the thoughts of other spirits around them. This is the reason they tend to group together with other spirits. It is too threatening to be around others who knew and disagreed with their thoughts.



Jesus leads Ritchie to a house somewhere on Earth where he is shown the spirit of a young man following his living family members around and begging them for forgiveness. But the family members are completely unaware of his presence. Jesus tells Ritchie the young man committed suicide and is "chained to every consequence of his act."



They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor's protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor's unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over.

....

d. His Description of the Horrors of Hell

They were still somewhere on the surface of the Earth; but no living person or beings of light could be seen. Before them was a plain jammed with hordes of spirits who are the most miserable and angriest beings he has ever seen. Many were engaged in hand-to-hand combat with no weapons - trying in vain to hurt and kill those who didn't agree with them. A lot of verbal abuse could be heard between them as their thoughts could be heard by everyone around them the moment they are thought. Ritchie is horrified as he wonders what living in such a realm would be like - a place where you cannot hide from who you really are. These spirits were locked into destructive thought-patterns, rage and uncontrollable lust. Some were trying in vain to get sexual gratification from each other. The wailing coming from the hordes of unsatisfied spirits was tremendous. Other spirits were in despair saying things such as, "I always knew!" and "Didn't I warn you!" Ritchie realizes this place is truly hell. Their obsessive thoughts and emotions extended beyond the physical realm and into the spiritual realm where they cannot be satisfied. Yet there was nothing preventing any of the poor spirits in these realms from leaving. There was no condemnation coming from Jesus either - only compassion for these miserable spirits. Ritchie realizes Jesus hadn't abandoned any of them here. Instead they fled from the light to escape from having the darkness of their heart from being revealed.

e. His Observations of the Temple of Wisdom

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie's Temple of Wisdom and Heavenly City Experience: They then travel to a completely different realm where some kind of enormous university is located. Spirits dressed as monks busily and happily engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. An enormous library exists here where all the important books of the universe are assembled. Ritchie asks Jesus if this is heaven. These are the spirits of people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth; but, like the spirits in hell, these spirits cannot see Jesus either.


f. His Vision of the Heavenly City

Ritchie is then taken into outer space toward a distant city made of brilliant light - similar in description to the heavenly city in the Book of Revelation (see also Revelation 21:10-27.) This is the place where people go who have become like Jesus while on Earth - a place where love is the dominant focus of life. This is heaven he realizes; but he is not allowed to enter it. Instead, Jesus shows him the future of Earth and is told to return to his physical body. At this point, Ritchie is revived from death.

 

[Albion]

And.... it is certainly not a salvation issue...... so I don't think that it matters much how informed either you or I are on it. I read a couple of chapters in a couple of books on the basic idea and I tended to take the authors seriously but......... I really am not overly concerned about this question myself.

...which I think is sensible. And I feel pretty much the same. However, I am willing to set the record straight if and when I have the relevant information and someone else is asking or else accusing falsely. That's what most of us do here.

If someone doesn't want to join some church, or fraternity, or civic organization, then they should simply find something else that appeals to them.

Have you ever read about the four realms shown to near death experiencer Dr. George Ritchie back in 1943 decades before String Theory postulated invisible dimensions of space and time?

No, I haven't. I've read a lot of case histories of NDEs but all were of people in more recent times.

 

[DennisTate]

...which I think is sensible. And I feel pretty much the same. However, I am willing to set the record straight if and when I have the relevant information and someone else is asking or else accusing falsely. That's what most of us do here.

If someone doesn't want to join some church, or fraternity, or civic organization, then they should simply find something else that appeals to them.


No, I haven't. I've read a lot of case histories of NDEs but all were of people in more recent times.

I am of the belief that being a member of the Elite .... especially during the dark ages was a very difficult thing to be.

Knights and Earls and Barons and Lords........... would sometimes take lives....... It was considered to be their duty.

Their parents and grandparents and the peers in the Aristocratic Classes faced certain ethical questions that are not so easy to answer........ so they developed traditions that worked over the short and long term.


Sabbath observance under extreme conditions....

I just want to say that I am truly sorry for all those years that I was close to believing in near total pacifism! Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua once asked a question of the Scribes and Pharisees that should have made it obvious to me that an extreme situation can call for drastic action by a Christian or Jew who feels called into a life in the military or police!


Mark 3:4 "And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace."

I am almost certain that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was referring to the situation faced by the Machabees when Greco - Syrian armies were attacking Jewish communities on the Sabbath.

One community had refused to fight back....but the Machabees....in my opinion correctly judged that this is a violation of an admonition by King Solomon:


Ecclesiastes 7:16 "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?"


Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, 1 Machabees Chapter 2
...
"So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. [39] And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. [40] And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.

[41] And they determined in that day, saying: Whosoever shall come up against us to fight on the sabbath day, we will fight against him: and we will not all die, as our brethren that were slain in the secret places."

Parents and grandparents of Aristocrats destined to assume rulership feared that their children or grandchildren might become "too Christian"....... "too religious?!"


Ecclesiastes 7:16 "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?"

 

[JM]

Hi, Rick. Unfortunately, that seems to be what you rely upon--a glancing knowledge.

What we should all aspire to, if we are going to start making posts that claim to be accurate, is something better than third or fourth hand hearsay.

Albion is correct here, a glancing knowledge and misinformation runs wild in this thread. Conspiracy theorists enjoy the idea that somehow they have secret knowledge of some massive conspiracy that they, because they are special, have figured it out. This makes correction impossible. This disallows facts and truth in general.



Good luck buddy.

jm

 

[Rick Otto]

Albion is correct here, a glancing knowledge and misinformation runs wild in this thread. Conspiracy theorists enjoy the idea that somehow they have secret knowledge of some massive conspiracy that they, because they are special, have figured it out. This makes correction impossible. This disallows facts and truth in general.



Good luck buddy.

jm

Sorry I must object, JM. You're both wrong.
True information cannot pierce a strong commitment to low intelligence.
Secret society enthusiasts enjoy thinking their club surely wouldn't lie to it's own members.
They are special oathtaking secret keepers so their keepers wouldn't lie to them.
No such thing as "good" luck.
May the knowledge of truth be made abundantly known to you before it's too late for you, if it isn't already.

 

[JM]

...which I think is sensible. And I feel pretty much the same. However, I am willing to set the record straight if and when I have the relevant information and someone else is asking or else accusing falsely. That's what most of us do here.

If someone doesn't want to join some church, or fraternity, or civic organization, then they should simply find something else that appeals to them.


No, I haven't. I've read a lot of case histories of NDEs but all were of people in more recent times.

Hey Albion, you may enjoy this short paper on The Psychology of Conspiracy Theorists (PDF).

Quote:
We have reviewed the current literature on the psychological factors that appear to drive conspiracy belief. We conclude that conspiracy belief appears to stem to a large extent from epistemic, existential, and social motives. Research has yet to demonstrate that it effectively serves those motivations, and early indications are that it may often thwart them. It is possible, therefore, that conspiracy belief is a self-defeating form of motivated social cognition.(end quote)

Yours in the Lord,

jm