JW commented these to me on Reddit; How would you answer these?

[Graydon Booth]

My favorite:

 

[Arctangent]

The reason this guy says that John uses "arche" to mean "beginning" is because he chooses to translate it as "beginning" every time he sees "arche", and he chooses to define "beginning" a particular way.

The Apostles and Evangelists didn't invent meanings of words. They used the words they used because those words had meaning to their audience. "Arche" already had an established meaning that John's audience would understand. If "arche" was already being used to mean "source" or "origin" or "principle cause", and John wanted to define it in a different way, then there is no reason to think that his audience would know that he is using that word in an unconventional way, and so there is no reason to think that John is using "arche" in an unconventional way. (And to say that "arche of creation" means that He was the first thing created would be an unconventional usage).

Jesus is the "source" or "principle cause" of creation. The JW explanation is completely made up to justify their doctrine.

 

[HTacianas]

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My favorite:

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When I need to know the definition of a Greek word I ask a Greek priest.

 

[BobRyan]

My favorite:

Jesus as "God the Son" has no beginning --

The OT character Melchizedek -- is considered to be a "type" of Christ (God the Son) because in the book of Genesis there is no beginning (no parents listed) for Melchizedek. This fits the real life fact that Christ literally as God the Son - has no beginning.

Heb 7:1 "Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Micah 5:“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.”

YHWH in the OT - is 'from everlasting"

PS 93
1 The LORD (YHWH) reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The Lord is clothed,
He has girded Himself with strength.
Surely the world is established, so that it cannot be moved.
2 Your throne is established from of old;
You are from everlasting.

Rev 3:14 NASB
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Origin of the creation of God, says this:

Rev 3:14 NKJV
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

JW's rely on ignoring the context and related texts that speak to that point - and then pouring "extreme inference" into one text where they appear to have some wiggle room even though many texts are very clear to the contrary of their inference.

=============================

One of the first things you should speak to JW's about should go like this --

1. "I know you accept the Bible - I do to. As you know I do not accept the NWT since that was written by your group alone. But I know you would agree to use my favorite translation like NKJV or NASB when studying with me - so that is fine with me.

2." I know you and I both agree that the new covenant can be found in Jer 31:31-34 and that all Christians highly value being under the New Covenant. I am under the New Covenant because of the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- are you? Would the majority of JW's today say that they are all under the New Covenant since they have accepted Jesus as their Savior - in your POV??.

As a New Covenant Christian when we celebrate the Lord's table I partake of the emblems of Christ's body and blood. When you pass the emblems of the Lord's table around at your church - are you allowed to partake of them? Are all JW's allowed to partake of them?

(this is important since JW's think only 144,000 JW's can be under the New Covenant out of all the JW's that ever existed in all of time).

3." Since I am under the New Covenant - I have no reason to reject it. IF you considered yourself to be under the New Covenant -- would you be interested in a doctrine that would remove you from it??​

 

[ViaCrucis]

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My favorite:

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If the Evangelist had intended to mean that Jesus, as the Logos, is a creature and not truly God then he did a very bad job. Because the ancient fathers--almost all of whom spoke Greek either as their first language or else were highly trained in Greek--certainly don't read it that way; but rather see the Evangelist declaring that before all else is God and His Word--and His Word is alike Himself God.

For the Evangelist continues, "By Him all things were made, and nothing that was made was made apart from Him." If all of creation was made by the Logos then how can the Logos Himself be one of those things that was made? Does the Creator create Himself? For God made all things by way of His Logos, who is before all things; this reinforces what has already been said: In the beginning was God and His Logos, and the Logos is God with God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Leaf473]

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My favorite:

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Kudos for witnessing to a JW. They will often change the topic if they don't have an answer. Based on my experience.

 

[Sabertooth]

Even if you were to succeed at correcting their Theology, they would still go to Hell if they died without getting Saved...

 

[Trusting in Him]

Jehovah's witnesses claim that you cannot have personal assurance of salvation, this is not only not true, but it is denying what the bible says. There are several relevent verses in the first epistle of John.

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God has given to us eternal life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may known that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(1 John 5:10 - 13.)

Jehovah's witnesses do not believe any of this, they are all out to draw away true believers from God and they will pay the price for this, if they don't repent and turn to God that they may be saved. There is no salvation without the Son, because He alone is the only Saviour and he is the one name under heaven by which we must be saved. No Saviour means no eternal life!

 

[com7fy8]

My favorite

Well, I have a favorite.

If you are a man who dearly loves a lady you hope to marry, and you want her to have a nice house to live in with you . . .

a contractor could say the beginning of the creation of the house is the foundation.

a architect might argue that the design is the beginning.

she might claim that his love for her is the beginning.

and carpenters might say the wood and nail supply is the beginning.

and he could say his idea in his head is the beginning.

Now, Jesus is "the Word" (John 1:1), by whom all was created . . . kind of like the idea in God's mind, possibly we could say. And what is in God Himself is God, though not all of God everywhere . . . like how the idea in the guy's head is the guy . . . made of stuff of the guy's brain. So, yes Jesus is God.

And how, by the way, could Jesus be the beginning of creation?

I offer Romans 8:29 >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

Before creation, Jesus was "the Word" sharing with our Heavenly Father. Our Father is so delighted with Jesus, that He could not accept having Jesus alone. But He desired to have many children who are like Jesus so pleasing. And He decided to make this marvelous universe as His place for having many children like Jesus.

So, Jesus and our Father's love for Him is how things got started . . . beginning creation.

So, yes Jesus so delighting to our Father is the beginning, though not created > but >

"All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (John 1:3)

 

[com7fy8]

Jehovah's witnesses claim that you cannot have personal assurance of salvation

I have not talked about this, myself, with Jehovah's Witnesses. But ones have been very quick to deny that God personally communicates with and personally guides His children.

And I have offered how >

"it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)

And their New World Translation does say >

"For God is the one who for the sake of his good pleasure energizes you, giving you both the desire and the power to act." (Philippians 2:13)

In order for God to give us desire and power to do His will, He is going to be within us personally working. So, He does not only talk to us, but in us He personally produces the desire and doing which He wants. And if He gives me a desire, this desire is in my heart; so He is in my heart, if He is giving me the desires which He wants to be in my heart > this is a very personal way of communicating, I would say

Plus >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, our Father does personally share His own love with us who are God's children > "in our hearts".

And the Jehovah's Witness bible does say >

"and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, their bible does say God shares His own love in the hearts of His children; and in God's love we do have His personal communication . . . all the time, with words and deeper than words. Of course, by the way, they do not capitalize the name of the Holy Spirit, here. They claim there is the "holy spirit" who is not a Person of God.

But the Holy Spirit shares God's own love with us. I would say this shows that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and only God can be the Spirit of His own love.

So, they are not talking about the real Jesus Christ, then. The one they are talking about is not God!

 

[Leaf473]

I have not talked about this, myself, with Jehovah's Witnesses. But ones have been very quick to deny that God personally communicates with and personally guides His children.

And I have offered how >

"it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (in Philippians 2:13)

And their New World Translation does say >

"For God is the one who for the sake of his good pleasure energizes you, giving you both the desire and the power to act." (Philippians 2:13)

In order for God to give us desire and power to do His will, He is going to be within us personally working. So, He does not only talk to us, but in us He actually produces the desire and doing which He wants. If He gives me a desire, this desire is in my heart.

Plus >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, our Father does personally share His own love with us who are God's children > "in our hearts".

And the Jehovah's Witness bible does say >

"and the hope does not lead to disappointment; because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy spirit, which was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, their bible does say God shares His own love in the hearts of His children; and in God's love we do have His personal communication . . . all the time, with words and deeper than words. Of course, by the way, they do not capitalize the name of the Holy Spirit, here. They claim there is the "holy spirit" who is not a Person of God.

But the Holy Spirit shares God's own love with us. I would say this shows that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and only God can be the Spirit of His own love.

So, they are not talking about the real Jesus Christ, then. The one they are talking about is not God!

A weird thing about JW's is that they think most of the New Testament isn't written to them. They think it's written to the 144,000. They don't usually come out and say this at the beginning.

So when they read a verse about God working in us, they think it's about God working in the 144,000.

Pretty clever trick of the evil one imo.

 

[DamianWarS]

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The book of John strongly supports the divinity of Christ but it goes beyond John 1:1. Christ says in John 8:58 "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." To me that is a clear reference to calling himself the I AM. But don't take it from me, how did the Jews react upon hearing this? (v59) "So they picked up stones to throw at him". It seems the message was clear enough that those present picked rocks up with the intent of killing him on the spot.

Scripture aside, logic can show us that God must be one but as a Trinity. If there is 1in1, God is imperfect because he needs his creation to understand love or have relationship. With 2in1, 1 communes with 2 and 2 communes with 1 but it is still imperfect because there is no way to contrast it to properly define relationship so God again is imperfect. With 3in1 relationship is fully contrasted as there is 1-2, 1-3 (and the reverse) but also 2-3 (without 1) and 1-2-3 so relationship and love is now perfectly contrasted and adding more would only be superfluous.

If we accept God is perfect in all ways lacking nothing then before creation God fully understood and experienced love and relationship. you can only do there fully when there are 3. Since God also must be one (and not three gods) the concept of the trinity is needed. The Trinity accomplishes this where 1in1 or 2in1 do not. This does not explain the Trinity but it does explain the necessity of the Trinity.

 

[com7fy8]

A weird thing about JW's is that they think most of the New Testament isn't written to them. They think it's written to the 144,000. They don't usually come out and say this at the beginning.

So when they read a verse about God working in us, they think it's about God working in the 144,000.

Oh-oh . . . this can show that a human can find a way to get around anything.

 

[ChetSinger]

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My favorite:

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Hello! When I'm presented with conflicting translations of a passage, one of the resources I turn to is the NET bible, which has a wealth of translator's footnotes. In fact, the footnotes are larger than the text itself. This is helpful to me because even though I don't read Greek, I have access to experts who do.

Here is Colossians 1:15 in the NET:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation...​

There are two footnotes, one for "firstborn" and the other for "over all creation". Here is the first:

The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prwtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: “The ‘firstborn’ was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in Ps 88:28 LXX (=Ps 89:27 EVV), ‘I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,’ indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth.” In Col 1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus’ rank as over and above creation (cf. 1:16 and the “for” clause referring to Jesus as Creator).​

And here's the second:

The genitive construction πάσης κτίσεως (pash" ktisew") is a genitive of subordination and is therefore translated as “over all creation.” See ExSyn 103-4.​

So, there is a precedent for the term being used to denote one who has supremacy of rank. Or the first born in time sequence. Or both. The Watchtower isn't revealing the whole picture. I have some familiarity with the logical fallacies the Watchtower uses, and cherry-picking sources is one of their common ones.

 

[The Liturgist]

Jesus as "God the Son" has no beginning --

The OT character Melchizedek -- is considered to be a "type" of Christ (God the Son) because in the book of Genesis there is no beginning (no parents listed) for Melchizedek. This fits the real life fact that Christ literally as God the Son - has no beginning.

Heb 7:1 "Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. 3 Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

Micah 5:“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting.”

YHWH in the OT - is 'from everlasting"

PS 93
1 The LORD (YHWH) reigns, He is clothed with majesty;
The Lord is clothed,
He has girded Himself with strength.
Surely the world is established, so that it cannot be moved.
2 Your throne is established from of old;
You are from everlasting.

Rev 3:14 NASB
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Origin of the creation of God, says this:

Rev 3:14 NKJV
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:

JW's rely on ignoring the context and related texts that speak to that point - and then pouring "extreme inference" into one text where they appear to have some wiggle room even though many texts are very clear to the contrary of their inference.

=============================

One of the first things you should speak to JW's about should go like this --

1. "I know you accept the Bible - I do to. As you know I do not accept the NWT since that was written by your group alone. But I know you would agree to use my favorite translation like NKJV or NASB when studying with me - so that is fine with me.

2." I know you and I both agree that the new covenant can be found in Jer 31:31-34 and that all Christians highly value being under the New Covenant. I am under the New Covenant because of the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- are you? Would the majority of JW's today say that they are all under the New Covenant since they have accepted Jesus as their Savior - in your POV??.

As a New Covenant Christian when we celebrate the Lord's table I partake of the emblems of Christ's body and blood. When you pass the emblems of the Lord's table around at your church - are you allowed to partake of them? Are all JW's allowed to partake of them?

(this is important since JW's think only 144,000 JW's can be under the New Covenant out of all the JW's that ever existed in all of time).

3." Since I am under the New Covenant - I have no reason to reject it. IF you considered yourself to be under the New Covenant -- would you be interested in a doctrine that would remove you from it??​

I love how you and I have really bonded over the issue of Christology.

 

[The Liturgist]

A weird thing about JW's is that they think most of the New Testament isn't written to them. They think it's written to the 144,000. They don't usually come out and say this at the beginning.

So when they read a verse about God working in us, they think it's about God working in the 144,000.

Pretty clever trick of the evil one imo.

J/Ws can declare themselves to be among the 144,000; even though most do not, thus far there have been almost twice as many members of the 144,000 compared to the 144,000 one would expect.

 

[The Liturgist]

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In addition to what everyone else has written, the other thing to remember is that the J/Ws have an intentionally mistranslated Bible edition where John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was like God” instead of “and the Word was God.”

Two other facts about the J/Ws that you should bear in mind when attempting to convert them to Christianity:

• They practice Scientology style shunning on ex-members, which tears families apart, and people can be ejected and shunned for insufficient tithing, violating the shunning order, and asking too many questions.
• The J/Ws have the lowest average per-capita income of any major Christian or psuedo-Christian denomination in the US, with another cult, the “post Christian” Unitarian Universalist Association, having the highest per capita income. As a result, J/Ws are extremely dependent on their family structure to survive financially and can’t afford to be shunned.

 

[apollosdtr]

JW commented these to me on Reddit; How would you answer these?

Psalms 82:1-8 God stands in the assembly of gods (θεών); and in the midst of them will judge gods.[2] How long will ye judge unrighteously, and accept the persons of sinners? Pause.[3] Judge the orphan and poor: do justice to the low and needy.[4] Rescue the needy, and deliver the poor out of the hand of the sinner.[5] They know not, nor understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be shaken.[6] I have said, Ye are gods (θεοι); and all of you children of the Most High.[7] But ye die as men, and fall as one of the princes.[8] Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.LXX

John 10:34-36 Ιησους answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?(Θεοί)[35] If he called them gods (θεοὺς), unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;[36] Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

[apollosdtr]

[...]
Rev 3:14
[...]

IF you considered yourself to be under the New Covenant -- would you be interested in a doctrine that would remove you from it??​

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the (ἀρχὴ) beginning of the creation of God;KJV

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the (ἀρχὴ) first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the Earth. Unto Him that loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

These two verses are parallel... so this witness is His witness of the Father:

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto Him, Art thou a king then? Ιησους answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the Truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth My voice.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
(John 17:8, John 12:49-50, Deuteronomy 18:18-19, etc.)

And so... THIS "creation of God" is called "the mystery of God", and is the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded, and there were great voices in Heaven, saying: The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[RileyG]

J/Ws can declare themselves to be among the 144,000; even though most do not, thus far there have been almost twice as many members of the 144,000 compared to the 144,000 one would expect.

I assume their paradise would be filled up by now...or they believe we would all live on a new earth per my JW friend says.