Justifying Abortion

[Tull]

I've not made any claims in this thread. You said there were lessons not learned from the 20th century. What does abortion have to do with what happened in the 20th century?

Geez Louise,it was a response to something said about the destruction of nations and how it happens.....and yes you have made claims,as an atheist you claim there is no God and abortion doesn't matter

 

[loveofourlord]

Realy,tell me all about....your god

this is about the god you seem to speak for, that lets thousands of worse things happen, but will care about america for some reason. Tell me why he cares about abortion in the US far more then all the genocides done in his name around the world?

 

[Skavau]

Geez Louise,it was a response to something said about the destruction of nations and how it happens.....and yes you have made claims,as an atheist you claim there is no God and abortion doesn't matter

I don't believe in a God. I don't know that there isn't one, that would be an argument I couldn't make.

As for abortion, yeah, I guess you could read into my posts and work out that I'm indifferent to it, but I don't think abortion causes a nation to fall into ruin.

 

[Tree of Life]

That seems a bit drastic. In this particular hypothetical I think I would be opposed as there seems much more sensible ways to go about this.

 

[Belk]

OK. I disagree with Dr. Paul Offit (Or at least this quote with no context). Is there some significance to this? It seems rather off the topic of the thread.

 

[Hetta]

No I don't play little ego games where people set themselves up as the most important person in the room that everyone must defer to,speaking the truth is loving....pandering is not.

That's not truth.

 

[Hetta]

I love arrogance and pride....because I know what its end is.

If you think you are without both, you are kidding yourself.

 

[blackribbon]

We just heard a good deal of interesting rhetoric in the third presidential debate last night. Clinton's main line of argument was that she did not believe that the government should make the difficult decision of terminating a pregnancy, but that this decision should be in the hands of women and their families.

Part of this line of argument is that there can be some pretty disturbing and perplexing medical cases that pregnant women face:

There are situations wherein the child/fetus has some disease that makes it so that the child will be born, suffer agony for a few hours or days, and then die. Perhaps women and families should have the option to terminate a pregnancy to spare the child and family from this pain.

Furthermore there are cases wherein the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother - sometimes to a certainty. If the mother carries the child to term she will likely die. Perhaps women and families should have the freedom to terminate such a pregnancy in order to save the life of the mother.

Admittedly, these situations are tragic and morally perplexing. But they are extreme and incredibly rare. They don't even represent 1% of abortions performed. Pro-Choice folks use these extreme situations in order to justify the vast majority of abortions which have nothing to do with saving the life of the mother or sparing a terminally ill fetus from agonizing pain.

For this reason I believe that these situations ought not be considered when debating the legality or moral permissibility of abortion. These cases are so extreme and so rare that they ought to be dealt with separately. Conclusions we make in these cases should have no bearing on conclusions made about the vast majority of abortions. And so these cases should not be used to defend abortion wholesale.

Pregnancies that risk a mother's life can be ended by c-section...and have a live baby. We do it every day for things like pre-clampsia. The truth is that there is only two ways to end a pregnancy - vaginal birth or c-section and killing the baby prior to vaginal birth doesn't make it safer for the mother. There is no reason to kill a baby prior to birth in the 3rd trimester.

As for saving a family from the grief of having a baby die shortly after death, you can't. The family grieves no matter when the death is and we now allow the family to spend time with the stillborn baby ... cleaned up and dressed in a sweet baby outfit and even take photos to document their existence.

I work on a woman's floor in the hospital and care for people with post aborton complications. Funny how those are never discussed. I had an 18 year patient who had a medical abortion (the medication type) who went septic after getting an abortion from a licensed abortion clinic. She spent several days in ICU and I walked in to a doctor discussing that they may have to do a hysterectomy if they couldn't get the infection under control. Not once have I ever heard anyone talk about the mother's health risks and potential life time complications related to getting an abortion.

 

[loveofourlord]

Pregnancies that risk a mother's life can be ended by c-section...and have a live baby. We do it every day for things like pre-clampsia. The truth is that there is only two ways to end a pregnancy - vaginal birth or c-section and killing the baby prior to vaginal birth doesn't make it safer for the mother. There is no reason to kill a baby prior to birth in the 3rd trimester.

As for saving a family from the grief of having a baby die shortly after death, you can't. The family grieves no matter when the death is and we now allow the family to spend time with the stillborn baby ... cleaned up and dressed in a sweet baby outfit and even take photos to document their existence.

I work on a woman's floor in the hospital and care for people with post aborton complications. Funny how those are never discussed. I had an 18 year patient who had a medical abortion (the medication type) who went septic after getting an abortion from a licensed abortion clinic. She spent several days in ICU and I walked in to a doctor discussing that they may have to do a hysterectomy if they couldn't get the infection under control. Not once have I ever heard anyone talk about the mother's health risks and potential life time complications related to getting an abortion.

whats the ratio of post abortion complications to post pregnancy complications along with just 3rd trimester complications? Any medical procedure will have problems, including pregnancy, heck pregnancy's have complications of their own that can kill or harm the mother.

 

[Tree of Life]

OK. I disagree with Dr. Paul Offit (Or at least this quote with no context). Is there some significance to this? It seems rather off the topic of the thread.

Just an interesting side issue.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I believe that abortion should be LEGAL during the first trimester. Not that I support abortion and I would discourage the option, if asked. Nor do I feel that the government should fund planned parenthood or that insurance should be required to pay for abortions, but only that as a STRICT matter of law that abortion should be an option for a woman in her first trimester.

 

[Belk]

Just an interesting side issue.

OK.

 

[smithed64]

You had asked us to complete your statement. I completed it in the way your post suggested you think it needs to be completed.

I can think quite will on my own. But your right, God does do it. He has the keys to life and death. We live by His mercy, so that we all might be saved. And there are times when God,will call a child home to Him, because He knows what the future will hold for the child. And then again, He also has performed some miraculous cures on some children and they lived to be a blessing to many.
So yes, God is control.

 

[smithed64]

Gotta love it when a single man makes statements about "oh yeah, it will be hard if the child dies .."

This came up on my FB page today.

"To Donald J. Trump and politicians like him, a late-term abortion is the stuff of ’80s slasher films. 'You can take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb of the mother,' Mr. Trump said during Wednesday night’s debate, a description void of consideration for women, medical professionals or the truth. Such politicians would have you believe that women like me shouldn’t get to make the choice I made. That our baby, despite his tiny misshapen heart and nonexistent aorta, sho...uld have a chance 'to live,' even though that life might have lasted mere minutes. Even though that life would have been excruciatingly painful. These politicians are ignorant of the sacrifices and blessings that come with carrying a pregnancy (let alone a nonviable pregnancy). They do not understand that a majority of women who have late-term abortions are terminating desperately wanted pregnancies...Many women have made the kind of difficult decision I had to make. When it happens to you, they come out of the woodwork. Friends, neighbors, colleagues. A friend of my mother-in-law said to me early on, 'You will always carry this loss, but someday, it won’t define you.' As the two-year anniversary of my abortion approaches, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that we made the right decision for our family — and that our government has absolutely no place in the anguish which accompanies a late-term abortion, except to ensure that women and their families have the right to make their choice safely and privately." - Meredith Isaksen, via The New York Times

What is single got to do with it? It doesn't.


This is why I'm so thankful we have a loving and forgiving God. It's sad that this happened. My concern is with her soul. Can't turn back the clock and change things. I pray that she did have other children and they were healthy. You see, it won't be me she has to face on judgment day. It will be God. Then she'll be define for her actions.
If she has sin in her life, she should repent and place her trust in Christ. Because He is the only way to the father.

 

[jayem]

Now, where is power to decide matters on abortion granted to the federal government?

The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. It sets limits on what the states can do. I'm sure you know that. Now here's a question for you:

Q: Where does the Constitution say that the unborn are persons with any legal rights?

A: Nowhere. The text never states, or even implies, that a fetus is considered a person, possessing any Constitutional rights. And so said the Supreme Court.

But here's the 9th Amendment:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Which means that just because a right isn't specifically stated, does not mean it doesn't exist. And such rights belong to the people, not to the states.

Then there's the 14th Amendment. Which says that a state cannot deny life, liberty, or property to any person without due process of law. When you add in the 9th Amendment, the term "liberty" can certainly include the right of an adult of sound mind to make a medical decision regarding her own body. (The 5th Amendment may also apply.) If a state law prevents a pregnant woman from making a medical decision to terminate a pregnancy, that is essentially denying her liberty without due process. So, laws that criminalize abortion violate the 9th and 14th Amendments. In a nutshell, that's the reasoning behind Roe v. Wade. You don't have to agree, but there it is. If you think the unborn should have legal rights, then the Constitution needs to be amended.

 

[Inkfingers]

It's a fetus.

... it's a fetus.

Changing the language to Latin (fetus is latin for "baby") does not change the nature of that which is described.

My own position is that abortion is to be avoided but that it is not absolutely prohibited (infanticide happened under Joshua's command in the Bible, and Joshua is an OT forerunner of Jesus - they even share a name). It having become as common as it has though is a sign of a sick society which too easily turns to the ruthless over the gentle, and too easily excuses the lascivious over the restrained.

 

[quatona]

Well it's happened plenty of times in the past. So I suppose the best way to understand it would be to look at the occasions when Yahweh has done this very thing. I think of the northern kingdom of Israel, the southern kingdom of Judah, the kingdoms of Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc...

If I interprete this correctly: It can be all the options I asked about?

Some of these nations have something of a heritage today but they are nothing compared to what they were at the height of their power.

So God loves China right now?

 

[quatona]

I can think quite will on my own.

That´s good to hear.

But your right, God does do it. He has the keys to life and death. We live by His mercy, so that we all might be saved. And there are times when God,will call a child home to Him, because He knows what the future will hold for the child.

Now how do you know that abortion is not one of God´s way of using parents to "call a child home"?
I mean, after all, we are hearing that God eliminates nations when at first glance it looks like other people and nations eliminate them?

And then again, He also has performed some miraculous cures on some children and they lived to be a blessing to many.
So yes, God is control.

Good, so there´s nothing to worry about and nothing for us to control.

 

[Tull]

If you think you are without both, you are kidding yourself.

Yeah, people who support the murder of unborn children don't concern me with their judgments about me,they support the brutal murder of a child in the womb from conception to near birth and I'm supposed to be concerned about what they think of me.....please.

I have not condemned anyone who has had an abortion which would be prideful and arrogant because God will forgive the repentant but to support the practice as if it were perfectly acceptable indicates way more pride and arrogance.

 

[Tull]

That's not truth.

Yes it is truth,nobody owes you anything,if express a belief it is your right to do but it does not create any obligation on anyone elses part to change your mind