Justification

[LutheranChick]

We have had Bible studies in our church on justification so much that I am pretty sure I understand it as well as I possibly can. This weekend I ran across the following Facebook post: https://www.facebook.com/schulzcj?fref=ts

‎"The LCMS along with the WELS insisted on the words, that God has not only secured and provided salvation for all, but that God has declared the whole world righteous in Christ Jesus. This they called objective Justification.....By only saying “secured and provided salvation” the door is open for some cooperation or contributions on the part on man. Good, God has provided it, how do I get it? But by insisting on the term God has DECLARED the whole world righteous, all works or cooperation on man’s part are removed." -- WELS Pastor M.F. Bartling, Onalaska, WI (Christian News, October 29, 2012, Vol. 50, No. 42).

Mark and avoid people, mark and avoid. What's being said here is that the entire world as been justified prior to faith -- man is already righteous in God's eyes, man just needs to believe that he's already righteous (J.P. Meyer's Ministers of Christ, Walther's (in)famous Easter sermon, and the heretic Samuel Huber's teachings ). To say otherwise, namely, that the sinner is not justified unless faith be given by God to him/her, is, according to WELS and Bartling as somehow man cooperating with his salvation -- synergism. What? If faith is given by God and as the Apology emphatically states that the sinner is justified before God only by the imputation of faith, then these synergistic accusations are completely unfounded. Mark and avoid, mark and avoid. To my Lutheran, laymen friends, read the Apology in the Lutheran Confessions on justification (Welcome to the Book of Concord) and tell me if you walk away afterwards thinking that the Lutheran Church teaches that the whole world has been justified prior to God-given faith. This "world absolution prior to faith" is philosophical mumbo-jumbo unsupported by Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions. It is Samuel Humber's heretical legacy living on."

So, if I am understanding it correctly - this guy is saying that belief is a work (which it is not, the way Lutherans understand it) Or, if I am misunderstanding, can someone shed light on what he is trying to say? I'm not questioning my education in the area of justification, but am just trying to figure out exactly what the problem is.

 

[Tangible]

As I understand it, Lutheran theology distinguishes between objective and subjective justification. As in the statement your poster quotes, Jesus Christ has objectively justified the whole world in his death and resurrection. The sins of those who wind up in Hell are just as forgiven as are the sins of those who wind up in Heaven.

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1 John 2:2 ESV)

This sounds very strange, especially to the Reformed (or to those influenced by Reformed theology). The difference is subjective justification through Word and Sacrament whereby God comes to each individual in their own time and place and makes them beneficiaries of the work of Christ by granting salvation by grace, through faith.

In effect, the sins of those in Hell are just as forgiven as the sins of those in Heaven. The difference is that those in Hell do not believe it.

 

[LutheranChick]

As I understand it, Lutheran theology distinguishes between objective and subjective justification. As in the statement your poster quotes, Jesus Christ has objectively justified the whole world in his death and resurrection. The sins of those who wind up in Hell are just as forgiven as are the sins of those who wind up in Heaven.

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
(1 John 2:2 ESV)

This sounds very strange, especially to the Reformed (or to those influenced by Reformed theology). The difference is subjective justification through Word and Sacrament whereby God comes to each individual in their own time and place and makes them beneficiaries of the work of Christ by granting salvation by grace, through faith.

In effect, the sins of those in Hell are just as forgiven as the sins of those in Heaven. The difference is that those in Hell do not believe it.

You and I understand it the same. I get objective and subjective justification - we've had Bible studies on that subject until we are blue in the face. What I don't get is what that guy's issue is. He is coming from a Lutheran standpoint - and claims to have studied this for years and seems to not agree that the world is justified - both believers and unbelievers. He claims it is against Scripture and against the Book of Concord. I completely disagree and I think he's just overthought the whole thing.

 

[LutheranChick]

Tang - is it correct to say, that unbelievers in hell have had all their sins forgiven except for the one unforgiveable sin - which is unbelief?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I think I know who this revolves around, and my husband has said on a few occasions that the issue that arises is that he puts what the WELS believes in the wrong words, attributes them to the WELS and then rails on the WELS.

It's a confusing situation, given that the man I'm thinking about writes with a lot of words. Like, he can take three sentences and have them all read differently but they're actually saying the same thing.

The thing is, I believe that Christ died on the cross for ALL people. In other words, he gave everyone a $100 bill in their pocket. They didn't do anything for that $100 bill, but it's there. They know it's there. And there are those who will take that $100 bill and say "I don't need this" and throw it away. Now, Jesus STILL gave them the $100 bill. Them saying they didn't need it didn't change the fact that he gave it to them.

So have I muddied up the waters even more?

I will admit, Objective Justification is not my strong suit. I hadn't even heard the term until the last couple of years. I know that the man who is railing against it was suspended and now he and his congregation are an independent congregation. IF it's the same situation.

 

[DaRev]

Jesus died to forgive all sins of all people of all time. Subjective justification requires repentance which is a work of the Holy Spirit in the believer. Unrepentance is a sign of unbelief, and unrepentant sin is not forgiven.