Justification: More than once?

[mannysee]

The word, jutification, has to do with being made right from a past wrong.

k4c

Originally Posted by mannysee

k4c,

Joining the discussion at this point of yours.
(If the "we" above is referring to Christians).

Is the thought above, that of someone who is already in Christ?
You are presenting here an idea which to me is foreign to the use of the word "justified" in scripture and its corresponding close use with the foundation of ones' conversion.

I do not see a Christian as ever in need of being justified once again at some later stage of his sanctification process by God. Rather, he/she has been justified by God.

Any scriptures using this word to support your position?
​

There is much in the Word on this but for the sake of time I will only touch on it.

When we come to Jesus for the first time He cleanses us from all our unrighteousness. When this happens the person is now jusitifed before God. Some people like to say justified = (just if I had not sinned). But...

k4c

-------------------------------------------------------------------

k4c,

I didn't want to move away from the central thought of your Law OP, which I posted in (see above copy).
So I'd like to begin a new OP on justification and the use of this word in the scriptures along with its definition.

I have placed your initial definition at the top so readers can refer back to it. Note that I have underlined the "a", also.

First off, I would like to give three examples of the definition of justification:-
1. "An instantaneous legal act of God in which he a. thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ's righteousness as belonging to us and b. declares us to be righteous in His sight" Wayne Grudem
2. "A judicial act of God pardoning sinners, accepting them as just, and so putting permanently right their previously estranged relationship with Himself. This sentence...is His bestowal of a status of acceptance for Jesus' sake". J.I. Packer
3. "A legal declaration by which God declares a person just, because of Christ's righteousness being imputed to the regenerated sinner." R.C. Sproul

Now I would like the reader to notice your initial definition k4c, in that Jesus Christ was missing (see the 3 defn's above).
If you wish to clarify your definition then that is fine.

^"Some people like to say, just as if I had not sinned"
Yes, you hear this phrase thrown around but I think we both know it is false.

To the sciptures on justification:-
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ...for therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just will live by faith." Romans 1:16,17
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3: 24+
Knowing that a man is justified...by the faith of Jesus Christ Galatians 2:16
"Be it known to you therefore, men and brothers, that through this man (Jesus) is preached to you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses." Acts 13: 38,39
and Romans 4:5, 5:21

You wrote, "For the first time", as part of your reply to me. So I perceive that you hold to some kind of need for later justification acts by God being required for the one who is in Christ.

Could you expand on your thoughts, concentrating on this word.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I know you were addressing K4C, and I know he will respond to your post, but I just wanted to throw into the discussion the act of sanctification that comes after justification. I can post some details on this as well as scripture to show this most important step in our salvation.

Only the blood of Christ can justify us as only He is able to bridge the gap between us and the Father. Sanctification is the 'working out of our own salvation' through character purification enabled through the Holy Spirit.

 

[mannysee]

^
Thanks for the reply, ECR. Yes, I will wait.

If you don't mind, I'll gently point out that you have already moved the discussion away from justification i.e. k4c's understanding, and its biblical definition, over to sanctification.
Hopefully we can focus our attention on the OP.

 

[k4c]

k4c

Originally Posted by mannysee

k4c,

Joining the discussion at this point of yours.
(If the "we" above is referring to Christians).

Is the thought above, that of someone who is already in Christ?
You are presenting here an idea which to me is foreign to the use of the word "justified" in scripture and its corresponding close use with the foundation of ones' conversion.

I do not see a Christian as ever in need of being justified once again at some later stage of his sanctification process by God. Rather, he/she has been justified by God.

Any scriptures using this word to support your position?
​

k4c

-------------------------------------------------------------------

k4c,

I didn't want to move away from the central thought of your Law OP, which I posted in (see above copy).
So I'd like to begin a new OP on justification and the use of this word in the scriptures along with its definition.

I have placed your initial definition at the top so readers can refer back to it. Note that I have underlined the "a", also.

First off, I would like to give three examples of the definition of justification:-
1. "An instantaneous legal act of God in which he a. thinks of our sins as forgiven and Christ's righteousness as belonging to us and b. declares us to be righteous in His sight" Wayne Grudem
2. "A judicial act of God pardoning sinners, accepting them as just, and so putting permanently right their previously estranged relationship with Himself. This sentence...is His bestowal of a status of acceptance for Jesus' sake". J.I. Packer
3. "A legal declaration by which God declares a person just, because of Christ's righteousness being imputed to the regenerated sinner." R.C. Sproul

Now I would like the reader to notice your initial definition k4c, in that Jesus Christ was missing (see the 3 defn's above).
If you wish to clarify your definition then that is fine.

^"Some people like to say, just as if I had not sinned"
Yes, you hear this phrase thrown around but I think we both know it is false.

To the sciptures on justification:-
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ...for therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just will live by faith." Romans 1:16,17
"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3: 24+
Knowing that a man is justified...by the faith of Jesus Christ Galatians 2:16
"Be it known to you therefore, men and brothers, that through this man (Jesus) is preached to you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses." Acts 13: 38,39
and Romans 4:5, 5:21

You wrote, "For the first time", as part of your reply to me. So I perceive that you hold to some kind of need for later justification acts by God being required for the one who is in Christ.

Could you expand on your thoughts, concentrating on this word.

First of all, I have not seen Wayne Grudem, J.I. Packer or R.C. Sproul anywhere in the Bible so to me they are just another private intepretation. By the way, I use to personally study with R.C. Sproul.

Now let's go to the Scriptures to see what God says about justification but first let's get the basic meaning of the word, justified.

Theology; to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit.

To declare someone innocent or guiltless has to do with a past wrong.

The Bible identifies this declaration of innocence as a cleansing or washing away of sin. Sin is a past wrong.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

The words, washed, sanctifed and justifed all have to do with our standing before God because of the cleansing blood of Christ.

To understand this cleaning we will have to refer to the old covenant where the blood of the unblemished lamb was used symbolically to wash sins away. This had to be done all the time because people sin.

Under the new covenant it's the blood of Christ that takes the place of the lamb's blood under the old covenant.

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Under the new covenant we no loner have to sacrifice a lamb but we do need to apply the blood of Christ to us when we sin under the new covenant. We do this by faith buy walking in the light as Jesus is in the light.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If and when we do sin we need to be washed again. How this is done is by confessing the sin to God and because of the blood of Christ, God forgives us and cleanses us again.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Standing justifed before God must be established daily as we fall into sin through confession and cleansing. The cross is not something we can put down. As time moves forward and we mature we will find that there will be less and less sin in our lives. This is called, sanctification. Sanctification is a one shot deal, as well as, and on going process. When we confess and God cleanses us we are sanctified but has to walk in the light we will have to make choices based on remaining pure or sanctified.

1 John 3:2-7 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

There is more than enough information here to show how faith is not a one time act, but rather, faith and works.

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James 2:17-18 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works.'' Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Now don't misunderstand God, He is not saying we have to work for our salvation but He does say we have to work out our salvation.

The Bible is very, very clear, a believer can be counted as an unbeliever, a believer can turn away from the truth and die, a believer can believe in vain, a beleievr can harden his heart a become worst than when he started, a believer can be lost. Now don't forget, a lost believer can be found if he turns back to God.

Luke 15:20-24 "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. "And the son said to him, `Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.' "But the father said to his servants, `Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. `And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; `for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.

 

[k4c]

Silence speaks louder than words.

 

[mannysee]

First of all, I have not seen Wayne Grudem, J.I. Packer or R.C. Sproul anywhere in the Bible so to me they are just another private intepretation. By the way, I use to personally study with R.C. Sproul.

Now let's go to the Scriptures to see what God says about justification but first let's get the basic meaning of the word, justified.

Theology; to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit.

k4c,
Before we begin could you reveal where your definition in red came from?

 

[k4c]

k4c,
Before we begin could you reveal where your definition in red came from?

Before I go any further, I'm begining to sense that you have the same spirit that wears out the saints with foolish, never ending, questions that never lead to accepting the answer, but rather they go round and round and wear out the saints. With this, what are your thoughts regarding my reply to your first question, which took my precious time to respond to, and do you believe being justified means something other than the simple definition I gave?

 

[Adventtruth]

G1344 dikaioo (from dikē, "right, judicial-approval") – properly, approved, especially in a legal, authoritative sense; to show what is right, i.e. conformed to a proper standard (i.e. "upright").

The believer is "made righteous/justified" (1344 /dikaió&#333 by the Lord, cleared of all charges (punishment) related to their sins. Moreover, they are justified (1344 /dikaióō, "made right, righteous") by God's grace each time they receive (obey) faith (4102 /pístis), i.e. "God's inwrought persuasion" (cf. the -oō ending which conveys "to bring to/out"). See 1343 (dikaiosyn&#275.

Strongs :free, justify, be righteous.

From dikaios; to render (i.e. Show or regard as) just or innocent -- free, justify(-ier), be righteous.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Before we begin could you reveal where your definition in red came from?

A very relevant and important question.

BFA

 

[k4c]

G1344 dikaioo (from dikē, "right, judicial-approval") – properly, approved, especially in a legal, authoritative sense; to show what is right, i.e. conformed to a proper standard (i.e. "upright").

The believer is "made righteous/justified" (1344 /dikaió&#333 by the Lord, cleared of all charges (punishment) related to their sins. Moreover, they are justified (1344 /dikaióō, "made right, righteous") by God's grace each time they receive (obey) faith (4102 /pístis), i.e. "God's inwrought persuasion" (cf. the -oō ending which conveys "to bring to/out"). See 1343 (dikaiosyn&#275.

Strongs :free, justify, be righteous.

From dikaios; to render (i.e. Show or regard as) just or innocent -- free, justify(-ier), be righteous.

Amen...

 

[mannysee]

justified... the simple definition I gave

I have not seen...anywhere in the Bible so to me they are just another private intepretation

k4c,
Thankyou for the effort you put into your first long reply. I will happily address your points.
But help me out here k4c. You know that private interpretations are of no use in discussion. Yet you have entered one of your own (your initial definition) and then followed this up with a hearty "Amen" to another private interpretation shortly thereafter.

These private interpretations are getting in the way already.
How are we to proceed k4c?

 

[k4c]

k4c,
Thankyou for the effort you put into your first long reply. I will happily address your points.
But help me out here k4c. You know that private interpretations are of no use in discussion. Yet you have entered one of your own (your initial definition) and then followed this up with a hearty "Amen" to another private interpretation shortly thereafter.

These private interpretations are getting in the way already.
How are we to proceed k4c?

The differences is the word, permanently justified, which are the words use by the people you quoted. That definition comes from a preconceive believe and not from the bible or even webster's dictionary.

 

[k4c]

The differences is the word, permanently justified, which are the words use by the people you quoted. That definition comes from a preconceive believe and not from the bible or even webster's dictionary.

Are you still there?

 

[mannysee]

The differences is the word, permanently justified, which are the words use by the people you quoted. That definition comes from a preconceive believe and not from the bible or even webster's dictionary.

k4c said, "...but first let's get the basic meaning of the word, justified.
Theology; to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit."

Morning k4c! Or should I say Evening! over there where you are.

OK, lets make an allowance then for Webster's in our discussion.

I was looking at a couple of online dictionaries which bore the name Webster's in the title and came across two online versions. One from 1828 and a modern edition.

Then upon reading the Wikipedia page for Webster's, I noticed:-
"Webster's Dictionary is the name given to a common type of English language dictionary in the United States. The name is derived from lexicographer Noah Webster and has become a genericized trademark for this type of dictionary.
Although Merriam-Webster dictionaries are descended from the original work of Noah Webster, many other dictionaries bear his name, such as those published by Random House and by John Wiley & Sons"

I also read that Noah Webster's original book was not written to be a bible dictionary, although he did also include bible definitions of the same English word where he chose to.

Q. What is the title of the dictionary you took the definition in blue from?
And more importantly, does this same reference have an entry for justification?
(So I can then look at the complete entries myself as I have noticed in the two online editions that there were four entries for justification)

thanks

 

[k4c]

k4c said, "...but first let's get the basic meaning of the word, justified.
Theology; to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit."

Morning k4c! Or should I say Evening! over there where you are.

OK, lets make an allowance then for Webster's in our discussion.

I was looking at a couple of online dictionaries which bore the name Webster's in the title and came across two online versions. One from 1828 and a modern edition.

Then upon reading the Wikipedia page for Webster's, I noticed:-
"Webster's Dictionary is the name given to a common type of English language dictionary in the United States. The name is derived from lexicographer Noah Webster and has become a genericized trademark for this type of dictionary.
Although Merriam-Webster dictionaries are descended from the original work of Noah Webster, many other dictionaries bear his name, such as those published by Random House and by John Wiley & Sons"

I also read that Noah Webster's original book was not written to be a bible dictionary, although he did also include bible definitions of the same English word where he chose to.

Q. What is the title of the dictionary you took the definition in blue from?
And more importantly, does this same reference have an entry for justification?
(So I can then look at the complete entries myself as I have noticed in the two online editions that there were four entries for justification)

thanks

The definition I gave you regarding the meaning of being justified was simple, easy and clear. I really don't feel like spending the next month going around and around on the definition of the word justified. So to spare me the pain why don't you just tell me what you think the word means so we can move on.

 

[mannysee]

The definition I gave you regarding the meaning of being justified was simple, easy and clear...

k4c,

Indeed it was:

Theology; to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit.

Now as you wanted to begin with the basic meaning of the word justify, I believe that for an honest discussion we should also reveal our sources. Doing so will also help the reader following the thread.

If one types into Google the exact definition you gave above, then there are at least two dictionary references given online. But I'd like to make sure I am "on the same page as you", as they say.

Time is short for me also k4c.
Your source?

 

[k4c]

k4c,

Indeed it was:

Theology; to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit.

Now as you wanted to begin with the basic meaning of the word justify, I believe that for an honest discussion we should also reveal our sources. Doing so will also help the reader following the thread.

If one types into Google the exact definition you gave above, then there are at least two dictionary references given online. But I'd like to make sure I am "on the same page as you", as they say.

Time is short for me also k4c.
Your source?

Let's keep it simple... Does the word, justifed, mean to declare innocent or guiltless; absolve; acquit or not? If not, then give me your simple defination and lets move on.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Does no one have a conversation without references?? is this how you witness to someone? If you cannot defend your belief on your own then your belief is indeed weak.

You remind me of professionals who spout credentials and associations before engaging in a discussion. Very insecure behaviour, imo.

 

[mannysee]

The difference is the word, permanently justified, which are the words use by the people you quoted. That definition comes from **a preconceived belief and **not from the bible or even Webster's Dictionary.

**
How would one know that someone is holding a preconceived belief?
How do you know that the definition you quoted of justify is not a preconceived belief and therefore to be dismissed also?

**
Justify
(word search at Dictionary.com)...
The 1st of four Dictionary entries:
"Based on the Random House Dictionary, 2011."
-verb.
3rd defn.
Theology . to declare innocent or guitless; absolve; aquit. < k4c quoted
Justify | Define Justify at Dictionary.com

You hold some weight toward a Webster's Dictionary, yet your initial definition was not from Webster's. Why?

If we stay with the Random House Dictionary and lookup justification, we find five definitions; the fourth being the Theology entry...
Also called justification by faith . Theology . the act of god whereby humankind is made or accounted just, or free from guilt or penalty of sin.

Now then, we pick up Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language (1828 editon) and examine Justification:
Search => [word] => justification :: 1828 Dictionary :: Search the 1828 Noah Webster's Dictionary of the English Language (FREE) :: 1828.mshaffer.com
The 4th entry is the theology definition...
In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.

k4c, If we are going to in part allow for dictionaries in our defining of bible words then I think it is best to begin with a wholly bible dictionary.
Easton's Bible Dictionary is one such example.
NETBible: Justification
"...but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ's righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8)."

------------------------------------

The righteousness of Christ being imputed to believers (my underlining above) is at the heart of justification. Reading through your first reply again, I noticed this extremely important aspect missing.

In the morning I will address your initial points and why justification is a once-off attainment, thereby receiving all the benefits of peace with God.

P.S. If your definition of justify was from a different dictionary than the above, then a note addressing this would help out any misunderstandings on my part.

 

[k4c]

**
How would one know that someone is holding a preconceived belief?
How do you know that the definition you quoted of justify is not a preconceived belief and therefore to be dismissed also?

**
Justify
(word search at Dictionary.com)...
The 1st of four Dictionary entries:
"Based on the Random House Dictionary, 2011."
-verb.
3rd defn.
Theology . to declare innocent or guitless; absolve; aquit. < k4c quoted
Justify | Define Justify at Dictionary.com

You hold some weight toward a Webster's Dictionary, yet your initial definition was not from Webster's. Why?

If we stay with the Random House Dictionary and lookup justification, we find five definitions; the fourth being the Theology entry...
Also called justification by faith . Theology . the act of god whereby humankind is made or accounted just, or free from guilt or penalty of sin.

Now then, we pick up Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language (1828 editon) and examine Justification:
Search => [word] => justification :: 1828 Dictionary :: Search the 1828 Noah Webster's Dictionary of the English Language (FREE) :: 1828.mshaffer.com
The 4th entry is the theology definition...
In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.

k4c, If we are going to in part allow for dictionaries in our defining of bible words then I think it is best to begin with a wholly bible dictionary.
Easton's Bible Dictionary is one such example.
NETBible: Justification
"...but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ's righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8)."

------------------------------------

The righteousness of Christ being imputed to believers (my underlining above) is at the heart of justification. Reading through your first reply again, I noticed this extremely important aspect missing.

In the morning I will address your initial points and why justification is a once-off attainment, thereby receiving all the benefits of peace with God.

P.S. If your definition of justify was from a different dictionary than the above, then a note addressing this would help out any misunderstandings on my part.

The true and basic meaning of the word, justify, must come against what your trying to push as truth, otherwise, why continue to trying to make it mean something else? Is it so it will fit your belief system? Sorry, I can only go by what word means.