Justification from Eternity

[stenerson]

 

[JM]

Justification from eternity is better understood if you understand the biblical covenants.

James Oliphant on The Covenants | Feileadh Mor

 

[moonbeam]

Rather than beat yourself up….make a rational reply to post #140

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[moonbeam]

Justification from eternity is better understood if you understand the biblical covenants.

JM - Justification, in and from, Eternity is proven false….by the logical constraints of scripture, in the specific example used... Rom 8:1 and 8:9.

Your failure to respond to the substance of my arguments is not likely to inspire yourself….nor fellow adherents.

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[JM]

I can't even see moon's posts...I can only imagine. haha


Heirship and Eternal, Vital Union

"...this oneness of vital relationship is in Jesus, not in the earthly nature, which has yet to be changed, and fashioned like Christ’s glorious body. Adam, we are told, (Rom. 5:14), is the figure of him that was to come. And if there had not been a union of natural life extending to his posterity, his transgression could not have involved them in the condemnation and death that by his offense passed upon all of his undeveloped race. “Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One, the free gift came upon all men to justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.” As in Adam, who is the figure of Christ, God made of one blood [or life] all the nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation, &c., (Acts 22:26), so that eternal life which is begotten and born of God, which was given to the heirs of God in Christ their Head, is one life—a unit, and not a plurality of lives. It was given to them in the Son of God, as the same eternal life which was with the Father, and is the same in all the members of the body of Christ. It is in Christ, and it is Christ. He says, “I am the resurrection and the life,” (John 11:25). “I am the way, the truth, and the life,” (John 14:6). “I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me,” (Gal. 2:20). “For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain,” (Phil.1:21). “Set your affections on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory,” (Col. 3:2-4)." source linked above

 

[moonbeam]

I can't even see moon's posts...I can only imagine. haha

JM - Everyone else can see.

And...what they can see is that you, the chief advocate for justification in, and from eternity, simply refuses to respond to the argument at hand which is centred in Rom 8:1 and 8:9.

I can only imagine…that you have no defence to my simple enquiry.

It seems the false doctrine you endorse, and propagate,…is easily proven false by Rom 8:1 and 8:9.

Neither you, nor any other adherent of justification from eternity…has the slightest idea what to do about it, or even how to respond.

"...this oneness of vital relationship is in Jesus, not in the earthly nature, which has yet to be changed, and fashioned like Christ’s glorious body. Adam, we are told, (Rom. 5:14), is the figure of him that was to come. And if there had not been a union of natural life extending to his posterity, his transgression could not have involved them in the condemnation and death that by his offense passed upon all of his undeveloped race. “Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One, the free gift came upon all men to justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.” As in Adam, who is the figure of Christ, God made of one blood [or life] all the nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation, &c., (Acts 22:26), so that eternal life which is begotten and born of God, which was given to the heirs of God in Christ their Head, is one life—a unit, and not a plurality of lives. It was given to them in the Son of God, as the same eternal life which was with the Father, and is the same in all the members of the body of Christ. It is in Christ, and it is Christ. He says, “I am the resurrection and the life,” (John 11:25). “I am the way, the truth, and the life,” (John 14:6). “I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me,” (Gal. 2:20). “For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain,” (Phil.1:21). “Set your affections on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory,” (Col. 3:2-4)."

"so that eternal life which is begotten and born of God, which was given to the heirs of God in Christ their Head, is one life"

This quote is detrimental to your position also…because it endorses the fact that, we can only be begotten…when we are, in fact, begotten of the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 and 8:9 speak directly to this issue.

PS - Once again…your own quoted support undermines your position.

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[JM]

JUSTIFIED FROM ETERNITY

Pastor Don Fortner
Grace Baptist Church of Danville
2734 Old Stanford Road
Danville, Kentucky 40422-9438

Faith in Christ is the evidence and manifestation of our justification, but not the cause of it. God’s elect were justified in Christ from eternity. Justification is one of those “all spiritual blessings” with which God’s elect were blessed before the worlds were made (Eph. 1:3).

Christ stood before God as our Surety in the covenant of grace from eternity. In that covenant the Son of God voluntarily engaged to pay the debts of his elect and make full satisfaction for them. God the Father accepted him as our Surety. “Thenceforward,” wrote John Gill, the Father “looked at him for payment and satisfaction, and looked at them as discharged, and so they were in his eternal mind.” As soon as one person becomes surety for another, the debtor is freed and the Surety is accepted. Thus all God’s elect were justified in eternity, as soon as Christ became our Surety (Rom. 8:30).

Our justification did not commence in time, but in eternity. Paul, speaking of God’s eternal decree of predestination, declares that all of God’s elect were justified in his eternal purpose of grace (Rom. 8:30). Gill was right on the money when he said, “God’s will to elect is the election of his people; so also his will to justify them, is the justification of them.” God’s act of justification is entirely an act of his grace. It is God accounting and constituting us righteous, through the righteousness of his Son. From all eternity God has looked upon his Son as our Substitute, and looking upon us in Christ we are, and always have been, righteous in his sight. In the mind and purpose of God, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8; Isa. 53). God set up his darling Son as our Surety, our Substitute, and our Redeemer before the world began; and as such, in his own mind, he looked upon Christ as having been slain for us from eternity. Just as Abraham, in his heart sacrificed his son at Moriah, and looked upon Isaac as one dead, so the Lord God looked upon his Son as slain from eternity because in his heart the deed was done.

Because God our Father looked upon Christ as one already sacrificed for us before the world was, all the blessings of grace were given to us in him (Eph. 1:3-7; 2 Tim. 1:9). The Holy Spirit tells us plainly that “all spiritual blessings” were bestowed upon all God’s elect in Christ before the world began. All the blessings of salvation and grace were irrevocably given to us in Christ our covenant Surety in eternity according to the purpose of God in election. Astonishing grace! Adoption, acceptance with God, redemption, forgiveness, and an eternal inheritance in Christ, all were given to us in Christ because he agreed to pay our debt and became totally responsible for all our obligations as our Surety in eternity. Thomas Goodwin wrote - “We may say of all spiritual blessings in Christ what is said of Christ himself, that ‘his goings forth are from everlasting.’ In Christ we are blessed with all spiritual blessings (Eph. 1:3). As we are blessed with all others, so with this also, that we were justified then in Christ.” He goes on to say that God the Father, in that everlasting transaction of grace with his Son, “told him, as it were, that he would look for (our) debt and satisfaction (from) him and he did let the sinners go free. So they are in this respect justified from all eternity.”

In addition to the plain statements of Holy Scripture, two facts compel us to look upon justification as an eternal act of God. 1st Had it not been for the fact that God looked upon his elect as being righteous and justified in Christ from eternity, he would have destroyed our race as soon as Adam sinned. God spares the wicked for the sake of the righteous. Just as the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were preserved for Lot’s sake, so the human race is preserved for the sake of those who the Father has chosen and justified in his Son from eternity. 2nd The Old Testament saints were justified by Christ, just as we are today. Their justification was just as full, complete, and perfect as ours (Heb. 9:15, 22; Rom. 3:25). If they were justified before Christ came, it could not be upon any grounds except the fact that they, like us, were justified by the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the earth.

 

[JM]

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-
6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Whenever this comes up I am always drawn to this passage. Basically I think it's saying that yes, we were dead in a temporal sense (after all, we are sinners). It's also says that by nature we were children of wrath. But it doesn't say that we were actually children of wrath.

It's possible that I'm reading too much into this, but if we were children of wrath and then when we were justified temporally this changed, then God's wrath fell upon/was planned for someone whom Christ died for.

However, if we were by nature children of wrath, but not actually children of wrath, this problem is averted.

That probably wasn't nearly as structure as it was in my head, but there you go.

 

[moonbeam]

"...As soon as one person becomes surety for another, the debtor is freed and the Surety is accepted. Thus all God’s elect were justified in eternity, as soon as Christ became our Surety (Rom. 8:30)…"

How can it be said of one who is justified in eternity and imputed with the very righteousness of Christ…….that they are "none of his" in Romans 8:9 ?

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.




Unless "None of his"...is a fact - until begotten of the Spirit ?


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[moonbeam]

How can it be said of one who is justified in eternity and imputed with the very righteousness of Christ…….that they are "none of his" in Romans 8:9 ?

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Unless "None of his"...is a fact - until begotten of the Spirit ?

I would have thought that those who affirm, justification in, and from eternity, would have had sufficient time by now to make a defence to my previous post [above]

Their inability to respond by way of refutation seems to me to suggest that they are completely defeated.

This is no surprise to those who know the truth of scripture.

Let those who have been influenced by the promotion of this unbiblical and errant doctrine take note…that the defenders of it have very little to say themselves.

Though they do seem apt at cutting and pasting the thoughts of those who have erred in the past concerning the matter.

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[JM]

I like your response. In giving this further thought, I think there is a sense where we can agree with justification from eternity, the same as elect from eternity. It is more justification and election from the Divine perspective, as a part of the omniscience of God. However, I believe it is error to teach that God's elect, though chosen from eternity are at birth automatically regenerated and justified (keeping a Reformed order of salvation in mind). The plan is from eternity but the working out of the plan is in time, according to time of God's choosing. I do believe in a few exceptions, like John the Baptist, who would seem to have been regenerated while in his mother's womb. And God can regenerate and justify infants, especially those whom die in infancy, I just wouldn't consider it the norm. So perhaps it's not as black and white as I first thought. Things always get more complicated when thinking in terms of temporal time and eternity involving a past, present, and future.

Moon keeps posting but I have him block so I can't see his posts. I think it's good that he continues to promote this thread. The above post is excellent.

 

[moonbeam]

JM - Everyone else can see.

And...what they can see is that you, the chief advocate for justification in, and from eternity, simply refuses to respond to the argument at hand which is centred in Rom 8:1 and 8:9.

I can only imagine…that you have no defence to my simple enquiry.

It seems the false doctrine you endorse, and propagate,…is easily proven false by Rom 8:1 and 8:9.

Neither you, nor any other adherent of justification from eternity…has the slightest idea what to do about it, or even how to respond.

 

[JM]

We were justified in the purpose of God before the foundation of the world. We were justified in time when the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished our justification and we are made aware of it when we hear the Gospel of our salvation and the Spirit applies it to our hearts. The life and death of Christ isn't applied to us when we believe it was applied to us when God chose to save us.

Yes it is controversial but only because historic Reformed doctrine will not be reformed. You must remember that the reformers came out of Rome and brought with them a whole lot of baggage. Justification by faith rather than through faith and progressive sanctification are just two of them.

 

[twin1954]

EXACTLY!

Not that JM doesn't deserve a two thumbs up but I actually intended for this be r Hammster's post.

 

[twin1954]

JM - Everyone else can see.

And...what they can see is that you, the chief advocate for justification in, and from eternity, simply refuses to respond to the argument at hand which is centred in Rom 8:1 and 8:9.

I can only imagine…that you have no defence to my simple enquiry.

It seems the false doctrine you endorse, and propagate,…is easily proven false by Rom 8:1 and 8:9.

Neither you, nor any other adherent of justification from eternity…has the slightest idea what to do about it, or even how to respond.







"so that eternal life which is begotten and born of God, which was given to the heirs of God in Christ their Head, is one life"

This quote is detrimental to your position also…because it endorses the fact that, we can only be begotten…when we are, in fact, begotten of the Spirit.

Rom 8:1 and 8:9 speak directly to this issue.

PS - Once again…your own quoted support undermines your position.

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Actually we have answered you but you ignore the answers and keep posting nonsense. Why should we continue to give the same answer to the same objection when you will not even recognize that we have given you an answer. Repeating something over and over again does not make it true.

 

[moonbeam]

Actually we have answered you but you ignore the answers and keep posting nonsense. Why should we continue to give the same answer to the same objection when you will not even recognize that we have given you an answer. Repeating something over and over again does not make it true.

twin1954….you know as well as any other person reading this thread that you have failed to answer my objections concerning the false doctrine of justification in, and from eternity.

I actually thought that your recent quietness was the result of your diligent attempts to seek out a sufficiently robust argument [biblical] to overthrow the destructive convergence of Rom 8:1 and 8:9 on the unbiblical and errant doctrine you assist JM in propagating.

If you believe I am mistaken in my appraisal…please quote the post where you answered my objection ?

I would have thought that you both would have been good Bereans and allow the brethren to examine the aberrant doctrine you promote via the scripture….after all you do bring strange things to our ears.

But it seems you expect the brethren to just accept your pithy little statements as gospel…without any need to reference and closely examine relevant scripture denying your claims.

Come now gentleman…let us examine the scripture and reason together [as we should]…what are you afraid of ?

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[nonaeroterraqueous]

twin1954….you know as well as any other person reading this thread that you have failed to answer my objections concerning the false doctrine of justification in, and from eternity.

Man, I'm way over my head, here. I'll admit it; but it seems like you're trying to cut a mathematical plane lengthwise. It's like trying to step outside of the universe and see what it's like to be God. On the one hand, if you're God, then you stand outside of the timeline, and matters of time and timing are all trivial. Our entire timeline is just an infinitely small point to an infinite being. Ergo, if we look at the matter from outside of the universe, presumably from God's perspective, if a humble rat like me might presume such a thing, then all of history boils down to the bottom line. Whatever the end result is, God always knew it would be, always intended it to be, etc. Sure, we could argue at what point on the timeline the justification actually took place, but when you're standing outside of the timeline, looking at it from an eternal perspective, it seems an awful lot like splitting hairs.

When God chose Moses to lead the people out of Egypt, there was a time when God's anger turned against him, and he sought to kill Moses. Then, there was that little incident with the male body parts that changed God's mind. First, God was enraged; then he was satisfied. Ergo, God does play within the timeline, also. He does seem to interact with us on a temporal level, despite being, himself, of an eternal nature. Seriously, though, did God not know from the outset that he wasn't really going to kill Moses? He knew he wasn't going to do it. As far as he was concerned, Moses was as good as pardoned, already. Still, there remained the matter of going through the motions, not for God's sake, but for Moses'. Was Moses saved by the foreskins, or was he already saved long before he was born? As far as I can tell, both are true.

Then again, maybe I just have no idea what you people are talking about. That, too, is a strong possibility.

 

[stenerson]

Then again, maybe I just have no idea what you people are talking about. That, too, is a strong possibility.

You basically expressed my take on it . God allows us to see the full picture,assuring us that it was a done deal because he determined it outside of time, in eternity. Wether that's technically justification is not something I'd spend too much time fretting about .

 

[moonbeam]

nonaeroterraqueous and stenerson,

The scripture, which is truth, as the Word of God is Truth…."can not be broken".

You are invited to make a reply to post #140….as it is patently obvious that the advocates of justification in, and from eternity, are to fearful to respond.

Perhaps you two can demonstrate the courage of a Christian man…and examine the scripture...to see if what they claim is truth or untruth.

Our God does not suffer from schizophrenia.

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[Hammster]

Moon, is it safe to say that the elect are never in danger of hell?