Justification from Eternity

[Sovereign Grace]

Some translations say that the Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, others word it a little differently. Now, was this Lamb slain from the foundation...or before...the foundation of the earth, or was He slain in time? This happened in time. The bible can aver this because of the surety of His word. It will not be altered. Just like our being justified. We were not justified from eternity past, but the bible can speak of it in past tense due to the surety of what it avers. We were elected in eternity past, and in time, both election and justification, took place.

 

[JM]

Hi Convict,

Faith lays hold and receives, it doesn't justify us, Christ justifies us.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Hi Convict,

Faith lays hold and receives, it doesn't justify us, Christ justifies us.

Again, God justifies us via grace. Granted, this gift is only bestowed to the elect, but it is what justifies us.

Abram was not justified from birth, but when he believed God.[Genesis 15:6]

 

[Sovereign Grace]

Hi Convict,

Faith lays hold and receives, it doesn't justify us, Christ justifies us.

Convict? Srsly?

 

[twin1954]

This is a flat out denial of sola fide.

Romans 5:1
Colossians 3:8
Romans 3:28ff
Galatians 2:16

Just to name a few. Now, I agree that faith is a gift of God that He bestows solely to His elect ppl. But up until the gift is given, they are not justified, but under condemnation.

No, it isn't. Faith is not the cause of justification but the evidence of it. I could accuse you of the same denial of Christ alone by your position. Faith doesn't justify us the person and work of Christ does.

Move the comma in Rom. 5:1 from faith and put it behind justified and see how it reads. The translators put the comma behind faith because of their presupposition not because it belongs there.

I don't know what you mean by Co. 3:8.

Both Rom. 3:28 and Gal. 2:16 fit fine with my view. I have no problem with understanding them.

 

[Hammster]

Move the comma in Rom. 5:1 from faith and put it behind justified and see how it reads. The translators put the comma behind faith because of their presupposition not because it belongs there.

Or maybe because of the argument in chapter 4.

 

[twin1954]

Or maybe because of the argument in chapter 4.

Actually if they followed the argument in chapter 4 they would have put the comma where it belongs, behind justified.

 

[Hammster]

Actually if they followed the argument in chapter 4 they would have put the comma where it belongs, behind justified.

No, just the opposite. Sorry brother, but you are wrong on this one.

 

[twin1954]

No, just the opposite. Sorry brother, but you are wrong on this one.

What was it that Abraham had faith in? It was in the fact that God would give him the promised seed.

Galatians 3:16 (KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

That is Paul's argument in Rom. 4. Replace the word "for" with because, that is what the Greek word means, in verse 25. Do you see the argument now?

 

[Hammster]

What was it that Abraham had faith in? It was in the fact that God would give him the promised seed.

Galatians 3:16 (KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

That is Paul's argument in Rom. 4. Replace the word "for" with because, that is what the Greek word means, in verse 25. Do you see the argument now?

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3


The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
— Galatians 3:8

He was justified by faith.

 

[twin1954]

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3


The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
— Galatians 3:8

He was justified by faith.

No, he was justified by Christ.

Romans 4:6-8 (KJV) 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

It doesn't say shall not but will not. God will not impute sin to His loved ones.

Psalms 5:5-6 (KJV) 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Were we once hated by God? Never. We are condemned in Adam to be sure but God has never dealt with us in Adam but in Christ.

 

[Hammster]

No, he was justified by Christ.

Romans 4:6-8 (KJV) 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

It doesn't say shall not but will not. God will not impute sin to His loved ones.

Psalms 5:5-6 (KJV) 5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Were we once hated by God? Never. We are condemned in Adam to be sure but God has never dealt with us in Adam but in Christ.

“Through” and “by” are different things.

 

[twin1954]

“Through” and “by” are different things.

Not always. The Greek word "dia" primarily means through but the word by is often substituted. Electricity comes by wires. The wires, though, are only conduits through which electricity flows. The wires are not the cause of electricity.

 

[Hammster]

Not always. The Greek word "dia" primarily means through but the word by is often substituted. Electricity comes by wires. The wires, though, are only conduits through which electricity flows. The wires are not the cause of electricity.

Okay. Not sure what that has to do with anything.

Scripture says we are justified by faith. The object of our faith is Christ/the gospel. Abraham believed AND THEN was justified. There is a sense that we are eternally justified in God’s economy. But there’s still a point in time when we pass from death to life.

 

[JM]

Convict? Srsly?

Sorry, convict-ed. I thought you'd find it amusing.

 

[JM]

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3


The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
— Galatians 3:8

He was justified by faith.

God is all knowing, He doesn't learn anything from Creation... Faith is a gift. Salvation is a gift. Both are given freely, both are decided in the Mind of God the Father in eternity, before Creation. God's unconditional love toward His people is not based on how we receive that love. North Americans are stuck with the idea of producing saving faith, as if we can say a sinners prayer and become a believer. Even Reformed folks have been affected. This is the lasting effects of the so-called "Great Awakening" and is not biblical. The emphasis in modern Reformed circles is the personal, subjective exercise of faith.

It's unbiblical. Justification produces repentance - repentance doesn't produce justification.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

 

[Hammster]

God is all knowing, He doesn't learn anything from Creation... Faith is a gift. Salvation is a gift. Both are given freely, both are decided in the Mind of God the Father in eternity, before Creation. God's unconditional love toward His people is not based on how we receive that love. North Americans are stuck with the idea of producing saving faith, as if we can say a sinners prayer and become a believer. Even Reformed folks have been affected. This is the lasting effects of the so-called "Great Awakening" and is not biblical. The emphasis in modern Reformed circles is the personal, subjective exercise of faith.

It's unbiblical. Justification produces repentance - repentance doesn't produce justification.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

I think you responded to the wrong post.

 

[Sovereign Grace]

No, it isn't. Faith is not the cause of justification but the evidence of it. I could accuse you of the same denial of Christ alone by your position. Faith doesn't justify us the person and work of Christ does.

Move the comma in Rom. 5:1 from faith and put it behind justified and see how it reads. The translators put the comma behind faith because of their presupposition not because it belongs there.

I don't know what you mean by Co. 3:8.

Both Rom. 3:28 and Gal. 2:16 fit fine with my view. I have no problem with understanding them.

Galatians 3:8, my bad. Again, we are justified by faith. And this justification takes place in time, as we were at one time lost, under the dominion of Satan. We were under condemnation until we were justified by faith in Christ.

 

[twin1954]

Galatians 3:8, my bad. Again, we are justified by faith. And this justification takes place in time, as we were at one time lost, under the dominion of Satan. We were under condemnation until we were justified by faith in Christ.

Justified by God or in our own mind and soul? There is no doubt that we begin to know of our justification when we believe but we were actually justified in time when Christ died. Justification isn't applied to us when we believe. That is Arminianism.

 

[JM]

Justification is not how we see our selves but how God sees us in Christ who is the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world. (Rev. 13:8)

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," 2 Tim. 1:9

Yours in the Lord,

jm