Justification by Faith Defended!

amariselle · Jun 18, 2018

Jason0047 said:
I never said otherwise. On the contrary, I believe all three persons of the Godhead or the Trinity live and move within the believer.

I’m not sure what you mean by the above, which I highlighted in blue. Only the Holy Spirit indwells all the believers, not the Father or the Son.

Jason0047 said:
But that does not mean we do not have free will and we cannot resist God.

Of course we have free will and can resist God, all of Scripture makes that clear in the countless times Israel rebelled against the Lord. I have never said we don’t have free will.

Jason0047 said:
Doing good works or living holy is about cooperating with the Lord our God wants to do in our lives.

Yes, which is our “reasonable service” as saved, born again, sealed believers who most definitely should desire to be faithful disciples as we grow in God’s grace through the “milk of the word”, in sound teaching and in spiritual maturity.

Jason0047 said:
So you are not saved by keeping the following Law or commandment?

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

We are saved by “the Law of faith.”

Jason0047 said:
So you are saying you are not under the command to believe on Jesus?

Believing on the Son is “the will of the Father” and is the “work of God”. It is what is necessary for salvation.

Jason0047 said:
What about not loving your neighbor?

Yes, we should love our neighbour. He who has been forgiven much, loves much.

Jason0047 said:
41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:41-46).

I’ve addressed these verses numerous times. You’ve only quoted a part of them. In this chapter, Jesus is clear that the Kingdom/eternal life is an inheritance which has been prepared from the foundation of the world.

Do you earn an inheritance? Or is it something earned by another that is then given to one who hasn’t earned it?

Jason0047 said:
Note: In the Parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus says that the good samaritan who was beaten up and stripped of his clothes and laying on the side of the road (like a poor man) in response to a certain lawyer who asked, who was his neighbor (in regards to loving his neighbor) (See Luke 10:25-37).

I am familiar with the parable. It is sound teaching on living as a faithful disciple who loves the Lord and others. We do well to follow it, absolutely.

Jason0047 said:
John says if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). Surely our brother is our neighbor.

Yes, we must definitely love our brother. I’ve never said otherwise. No true believer doesn’t have eternal life abiding in them. Scripture is clear, we have passed from death to life and have received the true life which is found only in the Son. So what makes you think that John is telling true believers that they do not actually have eternal life abiding in them?

Jason0047 said:
But it mentions nothing about how these works are to be seen by us reading about them (Whereby they are justified by such works). That is something you have invented that cannot be seen in Scripture.

Would you agree that none of those in the Early Church had actually ever seen Abraham or known him? Just as we haven’t. Neither had they seen Jesus or known Him, they heard about Him through the teachings of the apostles (which we have in written form in Scripture).

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. It’s not difficult, we would know nothing specific about God, were it not for His inspired word.

Jason0047 said:
Again, we are not seeing their works physically whereby they would be justified by such works.

They are not justified to God by works, but by faith, Scripture is clear.

Jason0047 said:
Reading about what somebody said is not the same thing because it requires faith. They may not have done such things. Again, they are not being justified by works if no man sees them. A hand written account is not the same thing. It can be a fabrication. It requires faith in the unseen.

Now, surely you don't believe that the inspired word of God is a "fabrication." Are you suggesting that we cannot trust what is written?

Jason0047 said:
Also, Romans 4 does not actually say that Abraham was justified by works before men. Romans 4:2 is talking about how Abraham would have something to boast about if salvation was exclusively in keeping the Law alone.

Actually Romans as a letter, read in it's entirety, is very clear that no one earns salvation at all. Let's look at Romans 4 specifically:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

amariselle · Jun 18, 2018

Jason0047 said:
But this is merely optional. You said before David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder. So it appears it does not always have to be this way.

Actually, salvation is always due to the imputation of righteousness by faith in the promise of God. (This "promise" was the Gospel, preached to Abraham)

Jason0047 said:
No. "...there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." (Romans 10:12).

I did not say there is a difference between the Jew and the Greek in regard to us all being one in Christ Jesus as saved, born again believers. I was simply stating the correct context of James in regard to who specifically his Epistle was addressed to.

Jason0047 said:
Also, James is saying they are not saved.
For he says,

"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (James 2:9).

"Faith without works is dead" (James 2:17).

James is not saying that these saved, believing and born again Jews, whom he refers to several times in his letter as "beloved brethren" are unsaved. James is chastising and correcting them for their dishonourable behaviour toward others.

Jason0047 said:
A dead faith cannot save anyone.

In context, James is referring to a faith that is not lived out in ones life.

Jason0047 said:
For without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

Agreed. It's always about faith, not works.

Jason0047 said:
ou side stepped the part of the verse that says we are to lay apart filthiness and naughtiness as a part of which is able to save our souls,

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

Again, James is chastising these "beloved brethren" and reminding them how they ought to live. He was right to do so, it's called Church discipline. Sometimes it is needed. The "word" is able to save souls, not works.

Jason0047 said:
This is entirely fiction.

You believe that the teaching "we are saved by the obedience of One" is "entirely fiction"? Perhaps this will interest you then:

Romans 5:
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Jason0047 said:
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light... the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Exactly, the "blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin". Not our works. And you can rest assured that all who have come to Jesus (whom He says He will in "no wise cast out") have come to the Light, because He is the Light.

Jason0047 said:
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Exactly, and yet, earlier you wrote that the belief of our salvation being by "the obedience of ONE" was "entirely fiction"...

Jason0047 said:
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

Walking = Keeping God's commandments.
The light = God the Father.
He who is in the light = Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:10 says loving your brother is abiding in the light.
1 John 2:11 says that if we are to hate our brother, we abide in darkness.

Paul says loving your neighbor is the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law (See Romans 13:8-10).

All true believers are indeed saved, born again, made new creations in Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, have passed from death to life and no longer have the wrath of God or any condemnation remaining on them. We have the Holy Spirit as our "guarantee" that we are the "purchased possession" (bought with the precious blood of Christ) and that He will raise us up on the "last day", just as He promised. Jesus never fails.

Jason0047 said:
Okay. Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is not talking about faithful believers in the present tense in regards to how they live. It is talking about Initial Salvation and how all have fallen short of God's glory because all have sinned and how they need a Savior and how all can be saved by coming to Jesus Christ by faith. For if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 refers to the believer in how they live after they are saved by God's grace, then you must also conclude that Romans 3:11 applies to the current state of the believer (after they are saved by God's grace).

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).

So if all have sinned and come short of the glory of God applies to the present way of life for the believer today, then you must also accept Romans 3:11 that describes the believer today, too. So you must believe that the saints today have no understanding and that none of them seeks after God, too. In other words, Romans 3 is talking about "Initial Salvation" and not the current state of the believer in how they live after they are saved by God's grace.

There is no such thing as "initial salvation." This is a phrase some use to argue that we are "initially saved" by Christ, but then we must thereafter remain saved by our works. This is false. Read Romans 3 again. You will see that salvation is all by the grace and mercy of God, who is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

And no, the true believer, as Scripture clearly teaches, is without sin (the "inner man") even though the "flesh" is carnal and is "sold under sin." And so, the "flesh wars against the Spirit" and this "flesh" is corruption and it is perishing. One day we will receive our new, incorruptible and imperishable bodies, this has not happened yet. Flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom, which is why we must receive our new bodies.

Jason0047 said:
Uh, cleaning the outside of the cup is putting on a religious show. Jesus told them to clean the inside of the cup, by telling them to get their hearts right with the Lord by repenting of their sins and forsaking them.

That is not what Jesus taught. If we could simply clean ourselves up, He would never have gone to the cross.

Jason0047 said:
A changed heart by being born again spiritually would be cleaning the inside of the cup. One is not born again if there is no change in their life and they are still sinning.

False. Being born again is an act of God, and not according to the plans, purposes or fleshly efforts of man. By your logic there should have been no "carnal Christians" or babes in Christ, as Paul clearly addresses in his Epistles. And, I'm sure you know that you still sin every single day in your "flesh." As do I, as does everyone. So, according to what you yourself have written, you would not be saved either.

Jason0047 said:
I am saying that a person seeks forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and they believe in His death and resurrection for salvation and they are saved in that moment. If they continue in His word and obey the Lord, they will remain in His salvation. If they go back to a life of sin, they will then abide in death.

There is the "initial salvation" falsehood again. Did you need to become sinless to be saved in the first place? If you're honest with yourself, you know that you did not. So, why would you burden others with the claim that if they don't stop sinning they will not be saved?

Jason0047 said:
So what is the crown of life mean to you in James 1?
I know full well what it means. It is talking about eternal life.

And what are we going to do with these "crowns of life"? Who gave them to us? Were they earned by our own efforts?

Jason0047 said:
As for eternal life being a gift:
Well, gifts come with responsibilities.
Obviously if Bob received a car as a free gift, he could not run red lights, drive drunk, and or hit pedestrians. If he did, he would not keep his free gift for very long.

I have heard that analogy one too many times. Salvation has been compared to all sort of earthly products, such as "cheap shoes", mortgages and cars. Sorry, the gift of salvation is not comparable to any earthly possession.

Jason0047 said:
Paul is talking about Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. Hence, why he says that Ephesians 2:9 are works that a man would boast in. Ephesians 2:10 switches to talking about God directed works. Paul is trying to refute Works Alone Salvation-ism by men. For if we obey God's commands in the New Testament, how can the Lord fault us? But if we do evil, will we not be judged?

9 "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:9-11).

Many confuse and mix salvation with discipleship. They are not the same thing. No one ever has or ever will earn eternal life. Ever.

discipler7 · Jun 18, 2018

Jason0047 said:
So there is some level of holiness required as a part of salvation?

When you make holiness a requirement for salvation, you are likely going back to something similar to the erroneous "justified for salvation by the works of the Law".
....... The Jews thought they were justified for salvation by just obeying the Law. Holiness requirements for salvation is similar.
....... Our focus should be on Christ and the Cross, not on holiness or good works or etc.

Holiness or good works or obedience is an "automatic by-product" of salvation = born-again of the Spirit. You just go with the flow or wind of the Spirit.
....... We still have to struggle with our flesh, esp for Gentile Christians. God will chastise us for our sins/evil-works and bless us for our good works. There are some dastard sins that can lead to death, mortally or immortally.(1JOHN.5:16-19, 1COR.6:9-11) ...

JOHN.3: = 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

1JOHN.1&2 = 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

redleghunter · Jun 18, 2018

Jason0047 said:
So there is some level of holiness required as a part of salvation?

It is the due work of a slave of Christ. We are to be conformed to the image of the Son. We are commanded to live pure lives. This is our required work which if one has the Spirit of Christ we joyfully do each day. It is the Spirit filled believer who joys in the fruits of the Holy Spirit. These are all causations of saved by Grace, not works that get us there or keep us there. The works themselves are His Grace as God promised "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:37)

Works don't save us (other than the Work of Christ Crucified, buried, Risen and Ascended), but the work of those in Christ is arduous labor for the harvest is ripe and the workers few. We are called to be the hands, arms, feet, legs of Christ doing His work with His Church.

Even these works we cannot claim as a slave cannot claim the bounty of the Master (using Biblical allusions):

Luke 17: NASB
7“Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’? 8“But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’? 9“He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10“So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

amariselle · Jun 18, 2018

112358 said:
Why indeed! So if those who were "troubled", "hindered", "bewitched", "cut off", "fallen from grace", "severed from Christ", were found as such, how is it we should believe we can't be found as such also?
Hebrews 6:4-8

I thought your position was that those who have been sealed, who have been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, could NEVER fall away? What does fall away and "impossible to renew them again unto repentance" mean, except exactly what is says??

1 John 2:
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

redleghunter · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
I'm sorry, but you didn't understand my post.
Also, you're beating a dead horse to death.

Let's look if I did not understand.

GodsGrace101 said:
James caused a bit of a problem in James 2:24

You stated James caused a bit of a problem with James 2:24.

GodsGrace101 said:
The reason is that he and Paul forgot to sit down and figure out some theology and how future generations would understand what they were saying.

You said they did not sit down and sort this out. However, they did at the Council of Jerusalem:

redleghunter said:
Most scholars put the book of James written by the half brother of Jesus Christ James the Just circa 48-50 AD. In the same timeframe 48-50 AD we see the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. There was no confusion after that council that one is saved by Grace through faith:

Acts 15: NASB
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

The above is the historical context in which we must put the writings of Paul, Peter and James.

As stated above I provided the historical context on how Paul, Barnabas, Peter, James and the Jerusalem church at large settled the matter that we are saved by Grace through faith (verses 9-11).

The Council of Jerusalem was all about addressing Saved by Grace through Faith + something else. The something else was refuted.

I addressed your comments about Paul and James harmonizing their teachings. They did not have to as the Council of Jerusalem settled the matter with Peter telling all both Jews and Gentiles had their hearts cleansed by faith in Christ and that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

With the above in mind is how we are treat the entire chapter of James chapter 2. Not in isolation and tension against the rest of Holy Scriptures.

amariselle · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Sorry A, I didn't mean to imply that you did (re Calvin).
I meant to say that the idea of eternal security or OSAS or perseverance of the saints was developed by him and those that came immediately after.

It did NOT exist before this. The idea was foreign to both the N.T. writers AND those that came immediately after them.

You can check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name a person before Calvin who taught this thesis. They all said Calvin was the first. I even called John Jefferson Davis, a scholar who published an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society on the history of this doctrine, a man who is himself a Calvinist, but who has researched the history of this doctrine thoroughly, and he said Calvin was the first to teach it.

This poses a problem even for those who claim that they take their teachings exclusively from Scripture, namely, “How could a doctrine this important–if true–remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Church history and, if Jesus comes back any time soon, for three quarters of all of Church history?”

Other important doctrines have been known all through Christian history. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it,that Jesus Christ was God. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that Jesus Christ is fully man as well as fully God. And Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that they were saved purely by God’s grace.

So when it turns out that Christians never knew that true Christians can never fall away, and then suddenly 1500 years later someone starts claiming it, one has to ask who is conveying the true teaching of the apostles and who is teaching the heresy “Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?”

source: The Early Church believed in Once Saved, Always… oh, Wait, No They Didn’t!

(the above source is posted ONLY to show proof that OSAS did not exist prior to John Calvin)

As I said, I am not Calvinist, nor do I agree with the five points thereof. I have used only Scripture to clearly show that "Eternal Security" is 100% Biblical.

God bless.

112358 · Jun 18, 2018

amariselle said:
1 John 2:
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I feel I am at risk of putting words in your mouth, which I have been guilty of doing before. So please provide your commentary on the significance of this quote in response to my post.

amariselle · Jun 18, 2018

112358 said:
I feel I am at risk of putting words in your mouth, which I have been guilty of doing before. So please provide your commentary on the significance of this quote in response to my post.

Those verses mean what they say, those who “go out from us” were never “of us.”

It’s important to remember this when reading other Scriptures that seem to indicate that true believers can or will be “cut off” from God, forsaken and ultimately cast into Hell.

We are adopted children “heirs of the promise”, “purchased possessions” bought with the precious blood of Christ and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, Who is our “guarantee”, until the day of redemption.

112358 · Jun 18, 2018

amariselle said:
Those verses mean what they say, those who “go out from us” were never “of us.”

It’s important to remember this when reading other Scriptures that seem to indicate that true believers can or will be “cut off” from God, forsaken and ultimately cast into Hell.

We are adopted children “heirs of the promise”, “purchased possessions” bought with the precious blood of Christ and we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, Who is our “guarantee”, until the day of redemption.

Thanks. In other words, we're back to "that's not Christians". Sorry I just can't accept this interpretation. Only Christians can fall from grace. Unless the antichrist enjoy the grace of God?

redleghunter · Jun 18, 2018

zoidar said:
GodsGrace actually have a point if she is right. If it wasn't taught until 1500 AD, why should we believe it?

Eternal security? It's a lot older. Jesus taught it quite often.

Edit add: If you meant the Reformation, it is actually termed the Perseverance of the saints.

John 10: NASB
27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

John 6: NASB
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3: NASB
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 5: NASB
18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 11: NASB
17So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off; 19and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother. 20Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed at the house. 21Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22“Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” 23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”

Bible Highlighter · Jun 18, 2018

amariselle said:
We are justified before God by faith (just as faithful Abraham) and before men by our works, as people cannot see the heart, only God can. So, we show our faith by our works, though the works are not what saves us, the faith is.

Not true. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

redleghunter · Jun 18, 2018

Halbhh said:
I wonder if there are more than 0.01% of Christians that think we are not saved by Grace and not works -- "...by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— "

(I haven't yet met anyone claiming we are saved by our works even out of thousands of discussions. They must be rare.)

Of course, works are required of us -- to love others, including in deeds.

But, one could try to find these seemingly very rare individuals you may be trying to address, somewhere, and bring the gospel message to them! That would be a good thing. But have you found any?

You won't find many who are outright Pelagians believing their works alone will save. What you will see is the semi-Pelagian belief where we are justified by faith and at that point God hands us a survival kit and all we need to endure to the end, but we have to use the survival kit to stay 'alive.'

It's a sort of deistic model IMO as that view shows we do nothing to be justified because it is Grace and we can do nothing to effect our own Resurrection because our bodies are dead; yet the sanctification process is like a the reality show Survivor where you are on your own.

amariselle · Jun 18, 2018

112358 said:
Thanks. In other words, we're back to "that's not Christians". Sorry I just can't accept this interpretation. Only Christians can fall from grace. Unless the antichrist enjoy the grace of God?

You can believe what the Scriptures say or not, it’s up to you.

112358 · Jun 18, 2018

amariselle said:
You can believe what the Scriptures say or not, it’s up to you.

Ditto.

redleghunter · Jun 18, 2018

112358 said:
So then, keeping the immediate context of at least a dozen, probably more (Galatians, James, Hebrews, Jude, etc.), scriptures we have beaten to death about Judaisers and those Christians who were being tempted to return to Judaism, were those Christians in the early church who left the Faith and returned to Judaism still sealed? Those who were "severed from Christ", "cut off", "fallen from grace"? Is it only Christians who have returned to Judaism that are described in this way?

Or are we back to "that's not Christians" again?

Ask the question.

What did they trust in for their Redemption?

Halbhh · Jun 18, 2018

redleghunter said:
You won't find many who are outright Pelagians believing their works alone will save. What you will see is the semi-Pelagian belief where we are justified by faith and at that point God hands us a survival kit and all we need to endure to the end, but we have to use the survival kit to stay 'alive.'

It's a sort of deistic model IMO as that view shows we do nothing to be justified because it is Grace and we can do nothing to effect our own Resurrection because our bodies are dead; yet the sanctification process is like a the reality show Survivor where you are on your own.

Ah, the 'sanctification process' being a kind of might and willpower thing, done on one's own, without aid? Ok, we could help those thinking that. Perhaps it's better to quote directly Christ than to only say "John chapter 15" or places were we learn about the aid, how we are not alone. Or testify about aid you've received!

112358 · Jun 18, 2018

redleghunter said:
Ask the question.

What did they trust in for their Redemption?

When? When they first believed, obeyed, and became Christians, or when they chose to leave the Faith and return to their brand of worldliness, Judaism?

If the former: They trusted in Jesus Christ
If the latter: They trusted in something other than Jesus Christ

Bible Highlighter · Jun 18, 2018

redleghunter said:
Eternal security? It's a lot older. Jesus taught it quite often.

Edit add: If you meant the Reformation, it is actually termed the Perseverance of the saints.

John 10: NASB
27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

John 6: NASB
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3: NASB
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

John 5: NASB
18For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 11: NASB
17So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles off; 19and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother. 20Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet Him, but Mary stayed at the house. 21Martha then said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22“Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” 23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”

For starters. Just look at John 10. In verse 27 it says his sheep follow Him. So the condition of not being snatched out of his hand is if we are following Jesus. These are not lazy and sinful sheep Jesus is talking about here.

redleghunter said:
It is the due work of a slave of Christ. We are to be conformed to the image of the Son. We are commanded to live pure lives. This is our required work which if one has the Spirit of Christ we joyfully do each day. It is the Spirit filled believer who joys in the fruits of the Holy Spirit. These are all causations of saved by Grace, not works that get us there or keep us there. The works themselves are His Grace as God promised "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." (Ezekiel 36:37)

Works don't save us (other than the Work of Christ Crucified, buried, Risen and Ascended), but the work of those in Christ is arduous labor for the harvest is ripe and the workers few. We are called to be the hands, arms, feet, legs of Christ doing His work with His Church.

Even these works we cannot claim as a slave cannot claim the bounty of the Master (using Biblical allusions):

Luke 17: NASB
7“Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’? 8“But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’? 9“He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10“So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

After being saved by God's grace, doing good is not optional in regards to the salvation process.

Matthew 5:28-30 says if one looks upon a woman in lust, their whole body can potentially be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 6:15 says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father.

Matthew 12:37 says we can be condemned by our words.

Matthew 25:31-46 says essentially if we do not help the poor in this life, we will be cast into everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:30 says to cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John says if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us (See 1 John 3:15).

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Paul says,
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

amariselle · Jun 18, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Not true. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

All who have believed on the Son (the "will of the Father"), have 'worked the works of God" and have received life, because life is in the Son.

Justification by Faith Defended!

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Thank You Jesus!

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Thank You Jesus!

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Thank You Jesus!

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Everything You say is Life to me

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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