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Justification and Sanctification ?

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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Yes but God was/is involved in a battle far greater than ours.
I don’t get that impression when I read the Bible. God seems to appear to hold us more accountable if we want to be in His Kingdom vs. Him forcing us to be there. It’s why Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. If what you say is correct, then everyone would be in God’s Kingdom.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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John 6:37-40 says,
37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.​
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.​
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.​
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."​

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."​

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.​

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.​

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?


Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)
 
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Clare73

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Good luck with refuting a literal 1000 years
Assuming the prophesy given in unclearly-spoken prophetic riddles (Nu 12:18) in Revelation is literal. . .
 
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Foghorn

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Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?
OSAS makes sense if you understand it, but it is a false doctrine.

Perseverance of the saints is a correct biblical doctrine.
 
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Clare73

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OSAS makes sense if you understand it, but it is a false doctrine.

Perseverance of the saints is a correct biblical doctrine.
How does that differ from the saved (born-again) always persevere?
 
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OSAS makes sense if you understand it, but it is a false doctrine.

Perseverance of the saints is a correct biblical doctrine.
How do you see them as different?
Some OSAS folk believe you have to live holy on some level for OSAS to be true.
Other OSAS folk are Hyper Grace and they believe you can live like the devil, and still be saved.
But those OSAS folk who claim they are for holy living do not agree with the Bible’s teaching that you have to confess and forsake sins to have mercy and that sin can destroy our souls. Jesus said one is in danger of hellfire by looking upon a woman in lust. Paul says if we provide not for our own, we have denied the faith and are worse than infidel (unbeliever). But many in the OSAS or POTS camps don’t believe these words by our Lord and the apostle Paul in Scripture. This is not surprising because we are living in the last days. Jesus said, “…when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8). The falling away has already happened. Most just tend to follow the crowd and they don’t study the Bible with the help of the Spirit alone for themselves.

I quote Scripture to many and they just don’t believe what those verses plainly say.
 
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Foghorn

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How does that differ from the saved (born-again) always persevere?
It would be better and more complete if you looked into these things.

OSAS suggests and is taught at times that a Christian can sin and that’s ok as it will not affect your salvation. No matter how you live you will be okay as far as salvation goes.

Do you understand perseverance of the saints?
 
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That’s not true. While there are Hyper Grace OSAS folk, there are Non-Calvinist OSAS who believe you must live holy for OSAS to be true. Granted, they are just like most Calvinists who also preach that 1 John 1:8 is a banner flag that they must commit inintentional sins over the rest of their life on some level. But they never say what these sins are and how often they do them. So I see the holy living (Lordship Salvation teaching) in Calvinism as a Trojan horse. They also teach like John Piper that he still does his sins, and yet they are not on him because they have been taken away (Which is a license to sin). I have a video of Piper saying this if you are interested in seeing it.

OSAS or POTS is a license to sin on some level because I never had any of them tell me that certain sins can destroy your soul if you abide in them. They all teach you can abide in some level of sin and be saved, and they use 1 John 1:8 as their excuse.
 
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Foghorn

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That’s not true.
Sure it is.
While there are Hyper Grace OSAS folk, there are Non-Calvinist OSAS who believe you must live holy for OSAS to be true.
Did I say there wasn’t? No.
I wonder if you know what you’re talking about? You fairly new?
Make up your mind. Seems you just want to be right.
Is that so?
 
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Bible Highlighter said:
That’s not true.
Foghorn said:
Sure it is.

Just giving a quick quib answer with no real substance does not help to explain what you are talking about. Just holding all the cards does not mean you are right. Please explain how you believe OSAS is different than POTS. If you don’t explain it then it defeats the purpose of having any discussion on this matter to begin with.

Bible Highlighter said:
While there are Hyper Grace OSAS folk, there are Non-Calvinist OSAS who believe you must live holy for OSAS to be true.
Did I say there wasn’t? No.
But you basically said to Claire that holiness was the difference in #628 (Which I already guessed that is what you were thinking because this is not my first rodeo in these kinds of discussions).

I wonder if you know what you’re talking about?
I am well versed on the false beliefs of Calvinism. I have read many of their articles on their five points.
I also have discussed with Calvinists on these issues since 2010.


You fairly new?
Nope. 40,300 some posts on this forum, and that does not include the other Christian forums I have posted at.

By the way, are you in any way related to JimmyJimmy?
He also is a Calvinist who had a LooneyTunes avatar.

See this thread here:

What is Free Will?

Make up your mind. Seems you just want to be right.
Is that so?
This statement does not really address what I said. It seems like you are dodging the truth here, and you just want to be right.
Is that so?

What is your interpretation on 1 John 1:8?
 
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Foghorn

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Thanks for your opinions.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
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Ditto
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Thanks for your opinions.
But you made claims without really explaining them to me.
Care to back up your claims with some kind of substance?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Yes he does very well as with most doctrines understanding both sides of the argument.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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But you made claims without really explaining them to me.
Care to back up your claims with some kind of substance?
Yes claiming something is true is much different than proving something is true .
 
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Foghorn

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But you made claims without really explaining them to me.
Care to back up your claims with some kind of substance?
You believe as you like.
I don’t have time now. You’ll have to wait until later.

Or, search online there is a lot of good info out there if you don’t have the resources.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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You believe as you like.
I don’t have time now. You’ll have to wait until later.

Or, search online there is a lot of good info out there if you don’t have the resources.
Thank you for telling me to search online. There does appear to be one small minor difference between POTS and OSAS but it is not enough to change the core heart of each of these beliefs in what they are teaching (Which is in the fact that they are both teaching you are eternally secure and sin ultimately does not separate you from God).

POTS and OSAS have different beliefs on what they are trusting in to be eternally secure. While they both can trust in their continued faith and works as evidence they are saved or eternally secure, they each have different foundations (that does not change the core teaching of what POTS and OSAS is). With POTS, you are trusting that you were Elect/Regenerated (along with eternal security verses) to be eternally secure. By contrast, OSAS is saying you are trusting only those verses you think are teaching eternal security and that it is by faith you are eternally secure. But both the false teachings of POTS and OSAS are teaching you are eternally secure. Both of POTS and OSAS in my experience teach you can also interpret 1 John 1:8 as a banner flag to sin on some level, as well. They are each are saying you cannot fall away from God. That is the heart of each of these teachings are really about. So the difference is not really enough to change the core concept of what POTS and OSAS are teaching at the heart (Which I believe is a license to sin on some level).

The only difference I really see is that OSASers believe it is “faith” that the key component as a part of being eternally secure, and POTS folks believe it is “Election/Regeneration” to be eternally secure, but they are BOTH each teaching you are eternally secure and cannot fall away from the faith. Both believe in eternal security verses. Both believe faith and works is to show a true faith. They both teach that if a believer stops believing and or living fruitful, you were never saved to begin with. They both teach you can sin and still be saved on some level (even though they will contradict themselves and say that you must live holy for eternal security to be true).
 
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Clare73

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Indeed (you're preaching to the choir) . .and I really like your distinction, it's the perfect Biblical response.

I find it so hard to believe that anyone would seriously teach that sin is ok.
 
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