Justice

[Tree of Life]

What is justice? Is it an important and useful concept or is it an outdated concept from a bygone age? Explain.

 

[Tree of Life]

I define justice as retribution and restoration. Justice is when the harm that someone has unduly caused is returned to that person. Justice is when the harm that someone has unduly experienced is healed.

"Eye for an eye" is retributive justice.
The restoration of something stolen is restorative justice.

I don't think that we can live without the concept of justice.

 

[prov1810]

In the Bible the same term, mishpat, is used for criminal justice and care for the vulnerable members of society. So neglecting the needs of the poor is as unjust as being soft on crime.

 

[Willie T]

What was the concept of "justice" in Isaiah 61? Is there retribution, or just restoration being spoken of.

And, after looking at that, and pointing out the word "Vengeance", we have to note that this was in reference to "declaring" that there was a "day" that would come...... not that it was being brought at that time.

Then, of course, we all know all too well that when Jesus read that same passage from the scrolls in the Synagogue, He totally left out that particular "vengeance" reference.

This would seem to indicate that He had not come for even declaring vengeance, but only to do the benevolent things mentioned.

I think it is man who really wants to see punishment added to Christ's restoration.

 

[Tree of Life]

What was the concept of "justice" in Isaiah 61? Is there retribution, or just restoration being spoken of.

And, after looking at that, and pointing out the word "Vengeance", we have to note that this was in reference to "declaring" that there was a "day" that would come...... not that it was being brought at that time.

Then, of course, we all know all too well that when Jesus read that same passage from the scrolls in the Synagogue, He totally left out that particular "vengeance" reference.

This would seem to indicate that He had not come for even declaring vengeance, but only to do the benevolent things mentioned.

I think it is man who really wants to see punishment added to Christ's restoration.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 - This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering -- since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints and to be marveled at among all who have believed...

 

[Willie T]

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

5 Your suffering proves that God’s judgment is right and that you are considered worthy of his kingdom.

6 Certainly, it is right for God to give suffering to those who cause you to suffer. 7 It is also right for God to give all of us relief from our suffering. He will do this when the Lord Jesus is revealed, coming from heaven with his mighty angels in a blazing fire. 8 He will take revenge on those who refuse to acknowledge God and on those who refuse to respond to the Good News about our Lord Jesus. 9 They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord’s presence and from his glorious power. 10 This will happen on that day when he comes to be honored among all his holy people and admired by all who have believed in him. This includes you because you believed the testimony we gave you.

Doesn't sound too much like our task, but God's.

 

[Received]

Let's not forget that the concept of justice follows our intuitive sense of fairness. Justice is getting what you should in proportion to who you are or the work you've put into things. Retribution is extrinsic to justice, not intrinsic.

So when people ask me which standard I created, or why we should adhere to a self-created standard, in things like having progressive taxation, my answer is: I didn't create this standard. It's inherent in you and me primarily as a feeling. You're just putting into the wrong variables leading to a bad conclusion.

 

[bhsmte]

What is justice? Is it an important and useful concept or is it an outdated concept from a bygone age? Explain.

Justice is in the eye of the beholder and can vary from person to person.

This is why, we have laws and due process, to cut through bias in trying to achieve justice.

 

[Paradoxum]

I'd think there's a difference between legal justice, and moral justice. I'm not sure that legal justice should aim for moral justice.

In my opinion, the legal system should primarily aim at protecting the public.

I suppose moral justice would be punishment or reward in proportion to the good or bad one does.

On the other hand, I don't believe in free will, so I don't yet know how that relates to moral justice.

"Eye for an eye" is retributive justice.

So Jesus was against this form?

 

[quatona]

I define justice as retribution and restoration. Justice is when the harm that someone has unduly caused is returned to that person. Justice is when the harm that someone has unduly experienced is healed.

"Eye for an eye" is retributive justice.
The restoration of something stolen is restorative justice.

I don't think that we can live without the concept of justice.

I find myself living without a concept of justice for quite some time now, and living without your particular concept of justice for all my life.

If you claim that we can´t live without the concept of justice, I would expect you to explain which unalienable purpose it serves.

 

[prov1810]

I find myself living without a concept of justice for quite some time now, and living without your particular concept of justice for all my life.

If you claim that we can´t live without the concept of justice, I would expect you to explain which unalienable purpose it serves.

If the question what will society do with people who initiate violence is of no interest to you, you nevertheless surely understand that most people think of themselves as members of society. Some of them do not have the indolent bourgeois luxury of ignoring these issues because they are struggling to survive in failed states, where rebel groups and drug gangs run amok.

 

[Tree of Life]

Justice is in the eye of the beholder and can vary from person to person.

This is why, we have laws and due process, to cut through bias in trying to achieve justice.

I'm confused. Justice is totally subjective yet we have an objective process to try to achieve an objective justice?

 

[Tree of Life]

So Jesus was against this form?

Jesus was not against retributive justice. But he did teach that mercy triumphs over judgment.

"Eye for an eye" is indeed just, but not for someone who has received mercy from God. If God does not treat us as our sins deserve, what right do we have to demand justice from others? If God is merciful with us, we ought to be merciful with others.

This is not "against" retributive justice. It's just introducing another principle, namely mercy, that triumphs over retribution. Both are good. But mercy is stronger.

 

[Tree of Life]

I find myself living without a concept of justice for quite some time now, and living without your particular concept of justice for all my life.

If you claim that we can´t live without the concept of justice, I would expect you to explain which unalienable purpose it serves.

How do you decide how you will treat other people? Do you treat everyone the same? Do you treat your friends better than your enemies?

 

[Tree of Life]

If the question what will society do with people who initiate violence is of no interest to you, you nevertheless surely understand that most people think of themselves as members of society. Some of them do not have the indolent bourgeois luxury of ignoring these issues because they are struggling to survive in failed states, where rebel groups and drug gangs run amok.

This.

 

[Tree of Life]

Let's not forget that the concept of justice follows our intuitive sense of fairness. Justice is getting what you should in proportion to who you are or the work you've put into things. Retribution is extrinsic to justice, not intrinsic.

I agree. Retribution is not necessary in a world without sin or a world without justice. But in a world governed by a just God that contains sin, justice takes on retribution as its meaning.

So when people ask me which standard I created, or why we should adhere to a self-created standard, in things like having progressive taxation, my answer is: I didn't create this standard. It's inherent in you and me primarily as a feeling. You're just putting into the wrong variables leading to a bad conclusion.

I don't follow.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I'd think there's a difference between legal justice, and moral justice. I'm not sure that legal justice should aim for moral justice.

I would be curious to know what you see as the difference between them.

In my opinion, the legal system should primarily aim at protecting the public.

Sounds reasonable to me.

I suppose moral justice would be punishment or reward in proportion to the good or bad one does.

That seems more like the concept of Karma than the concept of justice to me.

On the other hand, I don't believe in free will, so I don't yet know how that relates to moral justice.

what about the concept of free will seems unbelievable to you?

So Jesus was against this form?

I think Jesus rejected the whole concept of Justice in favor of the concept Mercy. What do you think?

 

[quatona]

If the question what will society do with people who initiate violence is of no interest to you,

What makes you think this question might not be of interest to me?

 

[quatona]

How do you decide how you will treat other people?

That´s a complicated process. Generally speaking, by considering their and my needs.

Do you treat everyone the same?

No.

Do you treat your friends better than your enemies?

I don´t think in categories of friends vs. enemies.

Now that I have answered your questions, would you mind answering mine?

 

[prov1810]

What makes you think this question might not be of interest to me?

"living without a concept of justice"