"Justice" in the history of Anabaptism

[Danfrey]

As I was reading another thread, the term social justice came up and got me thinking. At what point in Anabaptist history did we shift from an attitude of being just in our dealings with others to one of using the worlds Governments, laws and institutions to push social justice on others. From this statement you can easily determine how I feel about the issue of "social justice". I find it interesting that men like Ghandi, a teacher of false religion are held in esteem amongst many Mennonites. His version of justice seems to be more prevalent amongst Mennonites of our time than that of Jesus. The peace witness seems to have changed from one of personal witness to one of coercion. I feel that the modern idea of "social justice" puts too much emphasis on changing government and not enough emphasis on meeting the needs of people personally. I picture the attitude like this....If I can get the government to meet the needs of the poor, the church won't have to do it. Either that or some kind of false hope of making the world act like the church.

My point of this article is not to dicscourage a witness for social justice, but a reemphasis on Jesus' approach to the subject. The best we can hope to achieve is modeling social justice through our own actions. Anything other than this relies on methods that the are not condoned in scripture.

The following article from the Mennonite Encyclopedia does a great job of explaining how the idea of "Justice" evolved into where it is today in the Mennonite Church as a whole.

http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/j872me.html

 

[ACADEMIC]

If you live in a country where 98% of the land is held by 2% of the people who oppress the 98% landless, the only entity with enough power to change the situation is the state. And in many cases, it is the state that is aiding the oppressive actions of elites.

Hence, if you want to change the situation you have to go beyond just meeting immediate needs at the personal level, although that is certainly important too. You have to deal with systems, which is exactly the level at which Satan most works, and he is to be crushed under our feet (see Romans 16:20). I can imagine that Satan would delight to keep Christians believing that "the best we can hope to achieve is modeling social justice through our own actions."

In a case such as my above example with land reform, you have to appeal to state power who has the power to change land distribution. That is just a practical fact in practical affairs in which we are to use means.

For another example, take the slave trade. You can meet all the needs of slaves at the personal level you want and that is good, but it is woefully indadequate. You have to also focus on the system itself and work to bring change at that level.

I am thankful for Christians who personally aided individual slaves. But I am exceedingly more thankful for Christians in politics like David Livingston, and more so William Wilberforce, who labored at the system level within power structures to actually stop slave trade, which snowballed to end the whole hellish system.

Or Roger Williams who created Rhode Island and was its governor, so religious people, including hoards of Quakers, could escape the persecution of Puritans.

Ghandi's non-violent methods were practical and consistent with Biblical principles. Don't fall for the genetic fallacy. There is nothing wrong with being practical in response to real-world practical affairs. We have to make sure our idealism does not keep us marginalized.

We are called to be highly creative with our methods. The only methods that are off limits are ones that involve committing Biblically defined sins. Sword-point evangelism comes to mind. But one may just as well "preach" the gospel by panamime, surgery, activism for land reform or slavery abolition, or teaching tailoring to prostitutes, as by standing on a street corner with an open Bible and a proclaiming voice. In fact, if you do the former, people might actually listen much more to your proclaiming.

The kingdom is not a rescue mission effort undertaken by a perpetually marginalized group of rescuers operating from the margins. We are called to go into all the world, no part and no area excluded.

I take that "all" part literally.

The article you linked to states of early Mennonites that "they refused to accept justice as a category of Christian ethics. Love alone is Christian."

The proposition is patently false. All one needs to do is use an online Bible and search with the word "justice" to find all the argument they need against it. In my view, the poposition has very deservedly been discarded by the Menonites you mentioned.

 

[Danfrey]

If you live in a country where 98% of the land is held by 2% of the people who oppress the 98% landless, the only entity with enough power to change the situation is the state. And in many cases, it is the state that is aiding the oppressive actions of elites.

This statement illustrates the problem I see with this type of thinking. Regardless of what type country or governent I find myself subject to, the only entity with enough power to change the situation in a way that matters is Jesus. The government may be able to provide better distribution of land or food, but that does nothing for the eternal welfare of the citizens.

 

[ACADEMIC]

I am quite aware we can bear no fruit apart from Christ but can do all things through Him who strengthens us. I was meaning "enough power" as a practical matter in that the state has the practical means to undertake land reform whereas a couple hundred or even thousands of believers acting alone do not.

But by your reasoning, should we let God do everything and not use means for godly ends? That would be like William Carey's dillemma all over again!

Did William Wilberforce and other Christian abolitionist do their deeds from selfishness, or Christian devotion? Did Christ live in and through those abolitionists? Does Christ do things in the world all by Himself or through those that are His? If Christians in whom Christ lived did these things, then how did they get done and who did them?

Try to sell your idea that the ending of slavery did "nothing for the eternal welfare of the citizens". Stand up in an African-American church of today and proclaim it loud: "The ending of slavery did nothing for the eternal welfare of your citizens!" After prolific dissent, you will get one of the longest "talkin' tos" you have ever had.

Try to sell your idea to the early inhabitants of Rhode Island that a State with liberty of conscience did "nothing for the eternal welfare of the citizens". Excuse me? But was that not our point all along, sir?

Try to sell your idea to Haitians who got land in the early 1990s that it did "nothing for the eternal welfare of the citizens". Go see the churches, the fed children, water wells, the Christian schools, the Christian clinics, and the income people now have.

This sharp dichotomy between "spiritual" and "worldly" is just not a Biblical idea. But sadly, it has been a very effective tactic for our enemy through the years, who knows much better.

Any gospel that separates eternal justice matters from temporal justice matters is just not faithful to Christ, nor to even the whole story of the Bible! This is a notion that the modern menonites mentioned in your link clearly recognize.

 

[Danfrey]

I am quite aware we can bear no fruit apart from Christ but can do all things through Him who strengthens us. I was meaning "enough power" as a practical matter in that the state has the practical means to undertake land reform whereas a couple hundred or even thousands of believers acting alone do not.

I have to admit, I don't think in practical terms when it comes to spiritual matters. In my mind, a government doesn't exist lest God allow it. If it is his intention that it should change, that change will come about through his working without my intervention. My directions are clear; Preach the kingdom of God, feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the prisoner. I don't remember Jesus ever calling us to change others, public opinion, or Governments.

But by your reasoning, should we let God do everything and not use means for godly ends? That would be like William Carey's dillemma all over again!

The problem with this comparison is that we are told to spread the gospel. We are not told to push for social reform. A better comparison would be pushing the Government to teach the Bible in school. Personal action is much different than pushing social justice. It is one thing for me to pay a fair wage. It is much different issue for me to back unions pushing for fair wages.

Did William Wilberforce and other Christian abolitionist do their deeds from selfishness, or Christian devotion? Did Christ live in and through those abolitionists? Does Christ do things in the world all by Himself or through those that are His? If Christians in whom Christ lived did these things, then how did they get done and who did them?

As far as William Wilberforce, I have little respect for a man that resorts to having armed guards for protection. This shows a lack of trust in God. You arguement here sounds much like those that I have heard justifying "Christians" in the military. How is God going to topple an ungodly government unless he uses his people to accomplish it. Yet, most of us would agree that the military is no place for a Christian and that no end justifies killing another human being. God will accomplish his goals without the need for Christians to violate Biblical teachings. Should we lie, cheat and steal to save lives or accomplish our religious goals? Doesn't this start to resemble relative morality?

Try to sell your idea that the ending of slavery did "nothing for the eternal welfare of the citizens". Stand up in an African-American church of today and proclaim it loud: "The ending of slavery did nothing for the eternal welfare of your citizens!" After prolific dissent, you will get one of the longest "talkin' tos" you have ever had.

To answer this statement, I must ask "What does the Bible say about slavery"?
1 Timothy 6

1All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them.

Ephesians 6

5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Titus 2

9Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.



If ever there were a social justice issue that the Bible could have addressed this would be it. Jesus did not even mention slavery in the sermon on the mount. The point here is not that slavery is a good thing, but that our focus should be on eternity and not our temporary existence here on earth.

Try to sell your idea to the early inhabitants of Rhode Island that a State with liberty of conscience did "nothing for the eternal welfare of the citizens". Excuse me? But was that not our point all along, sir?

What were the results of this State with liberty of conscience? The first state to rebel against England. Funny you mentioned slavery, since RI played a big part in the slave trade. To top it all off, have you ever visited Providence Town?

Try to sell your idea to Haitians who got land in the early 1990s that it did "nothing for the eternal welfare of the citizens". Go see the churches, the fed children, water wells, the Christian schools, the Christian clinics, and the income people now have.

How many lives were lost in this "getting of land"? How many people does it have to benefit in order to make murder legitimate?

This sharp dichotomy between "spiritual" and "worldly" is just not a Biblical idea. But sadly, it has been a very effective tactic for our enemy through the years, who knows much better.

Any gospel that separates eternal justice matters from temporal justice matters is just not faithful to Christ, nor to even the whole story of the Bible! This is a notion that the modern menonites mentioned in your link clearly recognize.

If Jesus would have come preaching social justice, he never would have been crucified. Not once did he critisize the Roman occupation of Judea. On the contrary, he critisizes the religious people for their lack spirtuality. For focusing so much on temporal matters that they lost sight of spiritual matters. Matthew 10 goes a long way in illustrating how Jesus felt about the relationship of Christians to the world. It can be summed on by saying "Plan to suffer here on earth, but have heart, it is only temporary."

Matthew 10

 

[ZiSunka]

an attitude of being just in our dealings with others to one of using the worlds Governments, laws and institutions to push social justice on others

I think the post was mine that you are talking about, and I think you have misunderstood the term "social justice". It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with laws and courts, although that association has been misapplied to social justice.

I don't know any mennonites that believe the government should be in the business of caring for the poor. Everyone I know believes the church should be meeting those needs. In mennonite circles, the church must behave like Jesus or there can be no such thing as justice at all.

Social justice doesn't end with feeding the poor. A decade ago, I was involved in a professional capacity to stop a landfill from being built in a poor residential neighborhood. This location was selected because the residents didn't have the wherewithal to fight the condemnation of their homes, or the connections to prevent garbage from being place in their yards, garbage that was mostly created by an upper class community nearby. I used my connections to bring the problem to the attention of the public and the state government to try to stop the project because it would harm the most defenseless people in the community. Proverbs 31:8-9 certainly states that we should do this. Ultimately, the landfill was built anyway, because the state had clandestinely issued a permit without any of the plans or public meetings or evironmental studies required by law. If more people, Christ's followers, had stood up to give this injustice attention, it might have be prevented, but too many Christians are of the mind you are--if it doesn't affect them, they don't get involved, then claim it's separation of church and state that keeps them out of it.

When God's people use the state's law to do the church's business, it's because that's how civilized people resolve problems.

 

[ZiSunka]

In my mind, a government doesn't exist lest God allow it. If it is his intention that it should change, that change will come about through his working without my intervention.

So government is ordained by God, but it is worldly and inherently evil, therefore we shouldn't participate in it or try to address it in a Christian manner?

Can anyone else see the contradiction there?

Are you saying God ordains worldliness and evil?

 

[MrJim]

Yeah, if there is some way to help some one then any decent means should be used.

Y'all know my political position, and yet even though I don't participate in the process I am in their system, so if I can use something there to help someone then I should--if I can't do it myself, or if the church can't.

This Shane Claiborne dude is really screwing me up, but I think in a good way The book has been a great read so far-I read bits at a time. "Social Justice" sorta fits in here, yet in a different way than generally thought. More than I can explain at the moment, but they represent what I am thinking the church needs to be, more of a living in the world, with the world, inspite of the world. Maybe more later...

 

[Danfrey]

Ashes, it is was your post in the Quaker thread that made me think of the social justice issue. At that point I went to the Mennonite Encyclopedia to see when this type of thinking surfaced in Mennonite history.

If more people, Christ's followers, had stood up to give this injustice attention, it might have be prevented, but too many Christians are of the mind you are--if it doesn't affect them, they don't get involved, then claim it's separation of church and state that keeps them out of it.

Were did you get the idea that I have a different standard for those things that do affect me personally? I don't believe in ever fighting injustice directed at me or those subject to my authority unless it is to correct an injustice within the church. Jesus told us that we would suffer in this life. Also, I never said that a person should not get involved. I said that they should not resort to using the world's system to get involved. Weather it be throwing bricks or fighting injustice in court, it is still resistance. When we see people suffering it is up to us to do everything we can to help without the use of force or coercion. This may be feeding victims of an oppressive government, giving medical care where necessary or building homes for the homeless. Whatever the need is, we are told to meet it as the church, we were not told to change the government or the world. Our fight is not with flesh and blood.

When God's people use the state's law to do the church's business, it's because that's how civilized people resolve problems.

It sounds good in theory but has not basis in scripture. We can justify alot of actions through human reason, but that does not necessarily make them Christian. How did Christ tell us to respond to injustice? The only injustice that Jesus stood against was that of the religious establishment. He said nothing of the injustice of Romans.

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

I know that when people fight injustice with non-violent means, protests, petition drives, lawsuits, sit-ins, etc they do so with good intentions. My point is that scripture never gives us the authority act in this manner. We are told not to resist the government.

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

 

[MrJim]

It sounds good in theory but has not basis in scripture. We can justify alot of actions through human reason, but that does not necessarily make them Christian. How did Christ tell us to respond to injustice? The only injustice that Jesus stood against was that of the religious establishment. He said nothing of the injustice of Romans.

Resistance--when ya think about it there were times when people tried to lay hands on Jesus to capture or attack and got away from them...

Paul excercised his Roman citizen rights when he could have just turned the other cheek...

I think there may be more to things than meet the eye? I think what we have here are people with glimpses of how the Kingdom should operate just trying to fit the pieces together maybe? Not a "your wrong/I'm right" sort of thing, maybe more of a "some of this and some of that" thing.

 

[ZiSunka]

Amen, menno.

Those of us who are out here doing things to feed the hungry and defend the poor get tired of people who seem to be hypocritically saying, "Christians should feed the hungry and defend the poor, but we should do it with prayer and preaching, not with our hands and feet." As Francis of Assisi said, "Preach the gospel everywhere. Use words if you have to."

Prayer and preaching are very necessary, but no one can listen on an empty stomach or with injustice burning in their soul. A man can't respond to the Good News while his kids are crying because they have a fever of 103 and no doctor to help them. A woman can't here that God loves her so much that he gave his son, while she is wailing in grief for her son killed in war.

There's a lot of talk, but who is really doing the things talked about? It's fine to say something needs to be done, but it's better to make those things happen.

Dan, how would you have handled the situation with the landfill? Please don't say that you would have prayed and everything would have worked out fine, because we had hundreds of good Christian people praying constantly. We had concerts of prayer on several occasions. A whole neighborhood of poor people had their houses knocked down with no compensation from the landfill operators. Many had nowhere to go and families ended up on the street. Would you have just stood by theorizing about what is Biblical, without having any basis for saying that Christ would have done nothing?

Jesus got involved. He fed people, he healed people, he understood people's problems and helped them. He didn't say, go you poor hungry cold person, be warmed and filled and enriched by your knowledge that God loves you.

I respect your right to feel like God is calling you to stand and pray. What I don't respect is that you feel the need to tell those that are called into action that they have misunderstood God's call on their lives. It makes me really mad when someone tells someone else to ignore God's call because he/she doesn't like it.

Live as you are called and let other people live as they are called.

 

[Danfrey]

I advocate personal action over social activism. This is different from doing nothing.

 

[ACADEMIC]

Danfrey, the feeling of enjoying respectful debate here is mutual.

Menno, interesting looking author I'll have to look at more! And welcome back from your computer exile. I run "the Penguin" now and then on a machine.

Ashes, I loved your example about the landfill and the community. That is a beautiful way to practically serve people and an excellent example where intersecting at the governmental level is vital.

All, I am going to be dread busy the next few days and will be scarce. Hope to take up with this very important topic after then.

 

[Danfrey]

Resistance--when ya think about it there were times when people tried to lay hands on Jesus to capture or attack and got away from them...

I don't know that I would consider fleeing a form of resistance. Regardless of what it is, I can accept it as resonable response to injustice backed by Biblical examples.

Paul excercised his Roman citizen rights when he could have just turned the other cheek...

We have heard this one used to support voting numerous times. Why did he appeal to his rights as a Roman citizen? Is it possible that there was a greater purpose for getting him to Rome?

I think there may be more to things than meet the eye? I think what we have here are people with glimpses of how the Kingdom should operate just trying to fit the pieces together maybe? Not a "your wrong/I'm right" sort of thing, maybe more of a "some of this and some of that" thing.

I appreciate and respect the compassion that leads people to social activism. I don't necessarily agree with the idea as a whole. I know that people push for a change out of a love of God and thier fellow man. This in itself doesn't make it Biblical though. The same motivation is behind the bombing of abortion clinics. If we use any tactic that violates scripture, it can not be of God. I do think that I could accept a something like a letter appealing to someones compassion to correct injustice. Like writing to the president to ask him to end the war in Iraq. This type of action doesn't use cooercion to achieve it's goals. This is a different approach than that used by Ghandi style activism that tries force change through non-violent means. I think this would line up with the "appeal to Caesar" concept.

 

[MrJim]

Live as you are called and let other people live as they are called.

Yeah, I think this is puttin' the key in the lock--we are a body and body parts do different things and it works best when everyone recognizes what they are called to do and do it and let the other do the same.

One ain't better than the other, it's a symphony-when everyone is doing what they are supposed to do it works, otherwise it comes out sounding really bad. So keep yer drumsticks outta my flute they don't fit there and I'll not use my flute for a drumstick and all will be well

It ain't workin' very well at first glance-I drive through some rough parts of DC (ok it's all rough) and there's a church on nearly every freakin' corner and I wonder why are the neighborhoods like this if there are so many churches? Then it dawned on me that:

1. I'm making general judgments on externals
2. Maybe they think it isn't their job to clean up the neighborhoods-just preach and "be a presence" and hope people come into the enclave.

...so much work and so little time...

 

[CelticRose]

We can't fix everything but if we each do that which we personally are called to do then at least some things will get done. I do what I can to help when I encounter injustice but I don't go looking for it either. I wait on the Lord to bring into my life those that he wishes me to minister to - & He does.

 

[MrJim]

I appreciate and respect the compassion that leads people to social activism. I don't necessarily agree with the idea as a whole. I know that people push for a change out of a love of God and thier fellow man. This in itself doesn't make it Biblical though. The same motivation is behind the bombing of abortion clinics. If we use any tactic that violates scripture, it can not be of God. I do think that I could accept a something like a letter appealing to someones compassion to correct injustice. Like writing to the president to ask him to end the war in Iraq. This type of action doesn't use cooercion to achieve it's goals. This is a different approach than that used by Ghandi style activism that tries force change through non-violent means. I think this would line up with the "appeal to Caesar" concept.

See, we're gettin' somewhere here.

 

[MrJim]

I picked up this quote from the Claiborne book:

"When we truly discover love, capitalism will not be possible and Marxism will not be necessary." --Will O'Brien, Alternative Seminary, Philadelphia

What do you think?

 

[Danfrey]

I think Jesus put it best when he said love your neighbor as yourself. Isn't this a form of voluntary communism. With all the money in the hands of Christians in this country it is a disgrace to the church that children still go to bed hungry, that old people have to choose between medicine and food and that families live out of boxes and cars.

 

[catlover]

I think Jesus put it best when he said love your neighbor as yourself. Isn't this a form of voluntary communism. With all the money in the hands of Christians in this country it is a disgrace to the church that children still go to bed hungry, that old people have to choose between medicine and food and that families live out of boxes and cars.

That is something I don't understand in this country, health care is a luxery and the homeless are viewed with disdain.

Actually there are some people who state the homeless "want" to be there...