Juster on the dangers in the HR movement.

[AbbaLove]

There are those who teach a replacement and the church has tried like a rebellious child to find its identity outside of Israel…even to the point of trying to kill the womb that birthed them…yet the answer to this wrong is not to exalt those born of Israel who reject their Messiah...we should love them...we should pray for them.....even honor them...but always looking for opportunity to speak to them of the hope that is in us....Paul says if their rejection has brought our acceptance then how great a glory shall come at their acceptance....
What do we believe will be the message of the two witnesses...will it be any less than the necessity of accepting Yeshua as Messiah....if so can our message be different and still be right.

Are you referring (as a generalization) to the Messianic Jewish Movement when you express your opinion that it is wrong for a religious group to exalt those born of Israel who reject their Messiah? Yet you say we should “even honor them” … Yes, we should love them, pray for them and honor them. What is wrong with Messianic Jews exalting their brethren? Face the fact that Messianic Jews have more in common with Orthodox Judaism than they do with Christendom.

Exalt: esteem, praise, exalt
Honor: high respect, esteem, recognition

There are many wonderful Spirit-filled Christians that are Zionists. Unlike Jews for Jesus they don’t make it their duty to convert Israelis by getting in their face to share the hope within us. Billye Brim is a prime example of a loving Spirit-filled Christian that is respected by many influential Israelis. As one Jewish man said to me, “Before I met Billye I thought all Christians were the same. I now know there are Christians and then there are Christians.

Romans 11:25-29 MSG
25-29 I want to lay all this out on the table as clearly as I can, friends. This is complicated. It would be easy to misinterpret what’s going on and arrogantly assume that you’re royalty and they’re just rabble, out on their ears for good. But that’s not it at all. This hardness on the part of insider Israel toward God is temporary. Its effect is to open things up to all the outsiders so that we end up with a full house. Before it’s all over, there will be a complete Israel. As it is written,

A champion will stride down from the mountain of Zion;
he’ll clean house in Jacob.
And this is my commitment to my people:
removal of their sins.​

From your point of view as you hear and embrace the Good News of the Message, it looks like the Jews are God’s enemies. But looked at from the long-range perspective of God’s overall purpose, they remain God’s oldest friends. God’s gifts and God’s call are under full warranty—never canceled, never rescinded.

 

[rick357]

Are you referring (as a generalization) to the Messianic Jewish Movement when you express your opinion that it is wrong for a religious group to exalt those born of Israel who reject their Messiah? Yet you say we should “even honor them” … Yes, we should love them, pray for them and honor them. What is wrong with Messianic Jews exalting their brethren? Face the fact that Messianic Jews have more in common with Orthodox Judaism than they do with Christendom.

Exalt: esteem, praise, exalt
Honor: high respect, esteem, recognition

There are many wonderful Spirit-filled Christians that are Zionists. Unlike Jews for Jesus they don’t make it their duty to convert Israelis by getting in their face to share the hope within us. Billye Brim is a prime example of a loving Spirit-filled Christian that is respected by many influential Israelis. As one Jewish man said to me, “Before I met Billye I thought all Christians were the same. I now know there are Christians and then there are Christians.

Romans 11:25-29 MSG
25-29 I want to lay all this out on the table as clearly as I can, friends. This is complicated. It would be easy to misinterpret what’s going on and arrogantly assume that you’re royalty and they’re just rabble, out on their ears for good. But that’s not it at all. This hardness on the part of insider Israel toward God is temporary. Its effect is to open things up to all the outsiders so that we end up with a full house. Before it’s all over, there will be a complete Israel. As it is written,

A champion will stride down from the mountain of Zion;
he’ll clean house in Jacob.
And this is my commitment to my people:
removal of their sins.

From your point of view as you hear and embrace the Good News of the Message, it looks like the Jews are God’s enemies. But looked at from the long-range perspective of God’s overall purpose, they remain God’s oldest friends. God’s gifts and God’s call are under full warranty—never canceled, never rescinded.

My view is not that they are an enemy of God...I dont want them to stop being Jewish...just to understand the fullness in Messiah...as to the church they as a whole are more babylon than Jerusalem...also as to MJ I find in them a kindred love for both Torah and Israel....Perhaps I expressed myself badly....or it sounded to you based on your experiances that I was saying something I did not intend....
Either way I dont want Jews to become christian nor rabbinic...but to come to the fullness of Messiah....as it is my understanding that untill that happens I can not be in that same fullness....yet even if their acceptance would mean I would be cut off I would desire it...I love them as brothers...and I love the fruit of their nations womb..Yeshua

 

[daq]

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Instead of all this talk about RT, RT, RT ... think of Peter and Paul's inspired scriptures as BT (Bipartisan Theology) made possible only through the grace and mercy of the Lord God (one new man). Think of the above scriptures from the Brit Chadashah (1 Peter 2:5-10) and those in the Tanakh (Isaiah, Psalms, Hosea) as anything but RT, rather as the RC ~ Renewed Covenant, a Royal Crown of Beauty

Isaiah 62:2-4 CJB
2 The nations will see your vindication and all kings your glory.
Then you will be called by a new name which Adonai himself will pronounce.
3 You will be a glorious crown in the hand of Adonai, a royal diadem held by your God.
4 You will no longer be spoken of as ‘Azuvah [Abandoned] or your land be spoken of as ‘Sh’mamah [Desolate]; rather, you will be called Heftzi-Vah [My-Delight-Is-In-Her] and your land Be‘ulah [Married].
For Adonai delights in you, and your land will be married —

Ephesians 2:14-16 CJB
14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us
15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom,
16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.

Why tell me this? Why would it make any difference if someone was accusing me of BT? BT would simply become the normative heretic label to put on anyone that one desires to ostracize, (for those who practice such practices). The problem is that when someone states things that are already in the writings he or she gets accused of RT around here, for saying what is already written, by those who either could not care any less what is written or have no clue what is actually written. And when you quote the writings to back up what you say then they feign as if they have no clue what you are going on about. The Scripture is king when it comes to such discussions and it is the ruler by which any ruler should rule if one is going to assume rulership status to himself as some here seem to have assumed to themselves. That's not to flame but simply is what it is and why Scripture and the writings should always be present imo, (in answer partially to your other comments to me in the other thread).

 

[ContraMundum]

For what it's worth, Rachel Rachel has been around here for awhile and in this forum but don't take my word, do a search.

Anyway, Rachel? CM was actually being very nice and patient with you, something we don't always see so don't misunderstand him. I really don't think he was trying to insult you at all. CM can see most things from both sides, both a Jewish one and a Christian one. And 'Torah' means different things to different people so I think he just wanted you to clarify how you understand it.

ETA: I just finished reading the rest of the thread, you can take what I said with a grain of salt since CM doesn't take me seriously you shouldn't either.
http://www.christianforums.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

Thanks Lulav. I can only try. As an official Grumpy Old Man I don't always have the grace to hide or curb my frustration and utter disbelief at some of the stuff that goes on in the name of broad Yiddishkeit here.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Not too long ago I watched this video and found it very informative.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O1ve4Hs4Po&list=UU5qG9wUJNISCbVF8AVp7-xw

YESLORDIWILL, Im sorry I missed this earlier. Thank you I'll check it out.

 

[AbbaLove]

What exactly is the connection between the 7 Noachide Laws and the Dangers of the HR Movement

Isn't it more secularism that may see this as an acceptable "international law" for peace? Or has this concept already infiltrated certain elements of the Church (i.e. HR Movement)?

 

[AbbaLove]

Why would it make any difference if someone was accusing me of BT?

Wouldn't such an accusation actually be a compliment, exception being those that are hardliners. Bipartisan Theology is the coming together of the TaNaKh with the Brit Chadashah making both as one having broken down the middle wall of separation (m’chitzah).

Bipartisan: of or involving the agreement or cooperation of two parties that usually oppose each other's policies (e.g. Gentile | Jew ... Christianity | Judaism)

Ephesians 2:14-16 CJB (BT)
14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us
15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom

Bipartisan Theology = Renewed Covenant​

Is the Hebrew Roots Movement within Christianity really dangerous? Isn’t it long overdue (e.g. since 320-325 AD)?

 

[rick357]

Wouldn't such an accusation would be a compliment, exception being those that are hardliners. Bipartisan Theology is the coming together of the TaNaKh with the Brit Chadashah making both as one having broken down the middle wall of separation (m’chitzah).

Bipartisan: of or involving the agreement or cooperation of two parties that usually oppose each other's policies (e.g. Gentile | Jew ... Christianity | Judaism)

Ephesians 2:14-16 CJB (BT)
14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us
15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom

Bipartisan Theology = Renewed Covenant

Is the Hebrew Roots Movement within Christianity really dangerous? Isn’t it long overdue (e.g. since 320-325 AD)?

Much of it is taught as what one should do to be what YHWH wants us to be....bringing the danger of trying to be justified by actions...yet if it is taught as what Holy Spirit is making us to be then it is a good thing.
As always the Torah seen through the flesh has a veil over it which only reflects the sin and death in the flesh...but seen by the life of the Spirit the Torah is a fountain of the life he is living in us.

 

[Dave-W]

Is the Hebrew Roots Movement within Christianity really dangerous? Isn’t it long overdue (e.g. since 320-325 AD)?

Did you read Juster's article?

 

[AbbaLove]

Did you read Juster's article?

Did you checkout "Saunder's" (Ed Parish Sanders) theology who Juster referenced in the article?

 

[AbbaLove]

Did you read Juster's article?

Yes, (see post #49)

Did you read any of "Saunders" book (E.P. Sanders) as referenced by Juster?

Saunders' groundbreaking book Paul and Palestinian Judaism started the movement called the New Perspective on Paul. The quest for an accurate understanding through the Jewish context is common today.

In Ed Parish Sanders' next book Jesus and Judaism, he argued that ...

Jesus began as a follower of John the Baptist and was a prophet of the restoration of Israel. Sanders saw Jesus as creating an eschatological Jewish movement through his appointment of the Apostles and through his preaching and actions. After his execution (the trigger for which was Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple court of Herod's Temple, thereby antagonizing the political authorities) his followers continued the movement, expecting his return to restore Israel.

It sounds like "Saunders" (E P Sanders) doesn't believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of God conceived by the Holy Spirit. How much faith do you put in the opinion of Juster?

 

[AbbaLove]

Much of it is taught as what one should do to be what YHWH wants us to be....bringing the danger of trying to be justified by actions...yet if it is taught as what Holy Spirit is making us to be then it is a good thing.
As always the Torah seen through the flesh has a veil over it which only reflects the sin and death in the flesh...but seen by the life of the Spirit the Torah is a fountain of the life he is living in us.

Are you then also implying, in so many words, that the same danger that you perceive in the Hebrew Roots Movement is the same danger of the Messianic Jewish Movement? Otherwise if this “danger” were not of concern to Messianic Judaism then why would it be a concern to the Hebrew Roots Movement within Christianity?

To bring it full circle would you agree that this same [perceived] “danger” already exists within Christendom. Are suggesting that the Hebrew Roots Movement will only exacerbate what is already the nature of religious man whether in Christendom or Judaism?

Your above reply is common knowledge within "Spirit-filled" Christianity and so we both are well aware of "those" that see only its "dangers." Would instead appreciate your insight into the positive nature/aspects of the Hebrew Roots Movement as it may have affected you and/or your congregation in a positive way since, say September 11, 2001.

 

[Dave-W]

Yes, (see post #49)

Did you read any of "Saunders" book (E.P. Sanders) as referenced by Juster?

In Ed Parish Sanders' next book Jesus and Judaism, he argued that ...

It sounds like "Saunders" (E P Sanders) doesn't believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of God conceived by the Holy Spirit. How much faith do you put in the opinion of Juster?

As a personal friend - I put a LOT of trust in his opinions.

Juster is as much an academician as he is a pastor/rabbi. He will as frequently quote from academic sources as he will from "faith based" sources.

So whether Sanders is a believer or not is not the point. The point is his writings sparked a shift in how theologians viewed Paul.

This is not really new stuff for Juster. If you have read one of his early books "Growing to Maturity" he addresses many of the same concerns in what he termed "Super Jews" in the Messianic movement as he does in the problems with HR. It is just that the HR is under a different wrapper.

 

[rick357]

Are you then also implying, in so many words, that the same danger that you perceive in the Hebrew Roots Movement is the same danger of the Messianic Jewish Movement? Otherwise if this “danger” were not of concern to Messianic Judaism then why would it be a concern to the Hebrew Roots Movement within Christianity?

To bring it full circle would you agree that this same [perceived] “danger” already exists within Christendom. Are suggesting that the Hebrew Roots Movement will only exacerbate what is already the nature of religious man whether in Christendom or Judaism?

Your above reply is common knowledge within "Spirit-filled" Christianity and so we both are well aware of "those" that see only its "dangers." Would instead appreciate your insight into the positive nature/aspects of the Hebrew Roots Movement as it may have affected you and/or your congregation in a positive way since, say September 11, 2001.

As to the dangers It seems you see what I am saying...as to the good
Christiandom forgot long ago that the giving of the Spirit was to give Torah its fullness...not to do away with it....they forgot we were grafted into what God had been giving for thousands of years not some new belief
1) a understanding of who the living word was not just a readers digest of what he accomplished
2)a love for our brothers the Jews and an understanding that they are elder in YHWH's household and untill they recieve their rightfull place we will not recieve our fullness.
3)a departure from greek thought that has perverted many teachings and understanding of Hebrew thought that Yeshua and apostles taught founded in law and prophets
4) departing from babylon into the faith...as YHWH has instructed us in the life that he shares with us by the provision of his Son...what it is to know him as he is our life

That we would become hebrews to this world...that we would become living Torah...
That all scripture is a matter of life and death
Yeshua was not divided...but as long as we teach that he changed we make him to be a liar
Can HR or MJ do this...left foot ,right foot can carry the body towards or away from truth...so I trust my Father that he will draw those that are his till we are so much the living word that they will seek to end our lives

 

[AbbaLove]

This is not really new stuff for Juster. If you have read one of his early books "Growing to Maturity" he addresses many of the same concerns in what he termed "Super Jews" in the Messianic movement as he does in the problems with HR. It is just that the HR is under a different wrapper.

So saying it in another way we could include at least 3 wrappers: Christendom, Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots of Christianity. We could take it a step further and point out the increase in the number of wrappers found within each of these three wrappers.

When you say, "I put a LOT of trust in his (Juster's) opinions" makes me wonder if Juster could agree with the following statement about the Absolute Truths of the Brit Chadashah as inspired by the Spirit of the Lord God. Assume you are in agreement with the following ...

I have more confidence and abiding trust in the Brit Chadashah than in the opinions of others that are contrary to the Truth of Yeshua HaMashiach, God the Son as inspired by His Spirit, Ruach HaKodesh.​

 

[AbbaLove]

That we would become hebrews to this world...that we would become living Torah…

Being that you didn’t capitalize “hebrews” i take it that you mean it in a figurative sense, like Ruth or Rahab forsaking the paganism (or man's religiousity) of their previous environment.

Can HR or MJ do this...left foot ,right foot can carry the body towards or away from truth...so I trust my Father that he will draw those that are his till we are so much the Living Word that they will seek to end our lives

Considering your faith icon and your positive words can anyone deny that you present more of a positive WELCOME sign than that of a warning DANGER sign. The Hebraic Roots Movement could/should become a modern day “m’chitzah” and not just another religious wrapper.

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall (m’chitzah) (Eph 2:15)​

Hopefully, those that see a sign of DANGER aren't themselves bound up in their own religious wrapper.

 

[rick357]

Being that you didn’t capitalize “hebrews” i take it that you mean it in a figurative sense, like Ruth or Rahab forsaking the paganism (or man's religiousity) of their previous environment.

Considering your faith icon and your positive words can anyone deny that you present more of a positive WELCOME sign than that of a warning DANGER sign. The Hebraic Roots Movement could/should become a modern day “m’chitzah” and not just another religious wrapper.

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall (m’chitzah) (Eph 2:15)

Hopefully, those that see a sign of DANGER aren't themselves bound up in their own religious wrapper.

Yes on the hebrews...and is there danger....yes
Even Eden had a danger but for the most part it was providence

 

[Hoshiyya]

Quote: "The Hebraic Roots Movement could/should become a modern day “m’chitzah” and not just another religious wrapper."

The actual English term "Hebrew Roots" / "Hebraic Roots" has as far as I see already been set in stone as "Hebraicized Christianity", ie Christianity with a different vocabulary and a few differences in praxis, but still largely indistinguishable from the rest of Christianity when it comes to doctrine and praxis.

This has not happened to the term "Messianic Judaism", a term which will probably have multiple definitions for foreseeable time; one of these definitions being closer to Judaism than to historical Christianity (Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity, Protestantism, Evangelicalism, etc.)

Quote: "Hopefully, those that see a sign of DANGER aren't themselves bound up in their own religious wrapper.."

What exactly do you mean by "danger" ?

 

[rick357]

The actual English term "Hebrew Roots" / "Hebraic Roots" has as far as I see already been set in stone as "Hebraicized Christianity", ie Christianity with a different vocabulary and a few differences in praxis, but still largely indistinguishable from the rest of Christianity when it comes to doctrine and praxis.

Maybe Gamiliel's advice is still wise...if it is of men it will come to nothing...but if it is of YHWH we do not wish to fight against him

 

[Hoshiyya]

Maybe Gamiliel's advice is still wise...if it is of men it will come to nothing...but if it is of YHWH we do not wish to fight against him

ok, how does that advice apply to what I said ?

I am talking about my perception of the definition of two specific terms, Hebrew Roots and Messianic Judaism.