Juster on the dangers in the HR movement.

[daq]

You're still missing the point. You have to define what you mean by that.

Every religion on the planet to some degree teaches Torah.

Wrong. This is what YHVH says:

Isaiah 56:1
[/color][/size]Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
for soon my salvation will come,
and my righteousness be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil.” 3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from his people”;​

​

Context. To the Jews, during a time when they were walking astray from the Covenant.

Note: not a prophecy given to the Greeks, the Chinese or whoever.



Tell us something we don't know.

Answer what question exactly? Have you ever answered one of mine....ever????

Wow, so you think Isaiah 56 speaks only to Jews?

Isaiah 56:1-8 KJV
1. Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4. For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5. Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7. Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, [Revelation 14:1] and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8. The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

I especially like this: "A place and a name better than of sons and daughters" . . .

But like was said to Yonah earlier in this thread: one has to actually understand what Yeshua and his talmidim teach, (including Paul) and one also has to actually be willing to do those things, becoming a "eunuch" accordingly as the Scripture portrays and not just according to the flesh and mind of the flesh of carnal minded man which only sees words like "eunuch" as applying to men in and of the flesh: "If your right eye offends you, pluck him out, and cast him from you", "If your hand offends you, cut her off, and cast her from you", "If your foot offends you, cut him off, and cast him from you", for there be five in one house parted asunder, which are likened unto ten virgins, and the man is the house, (and the enemies of the man are those of his own household). It is all given in simple allegories and children tales the likes of which the wise and prudent "scholars" of today are too completely and thoroughly blind to see. So simple even a child can understand: I love it!

 

[Rachel Rachel]

You're still missing the point. You have to define what you mean by that.

Every religion on the planet to some degree teaches Torah.

"To some degree?" Every human on the planet follows Torah "to some degree." That isn't my point. I mean the 10 Commandments, the Feasts of the LORD, and I especially mean acknowledging that His Law is still in effect and not abolished or nailed to a tree!
Do you even know how many Christians teach that all Mosaic Law is abolished because we're in a new covenant?

Now, again, I'm asking you or annier to name a specific denomination that teaches keeping Torah.

Context. To the Jews, during a time when they were walking astray from the Covenant.

Note: not a prophecy given to the Greeks, the Chinese or whoever.

Huh? Seriously?? This prophecy is to the Gentiles, i.e. non-Jews. This would include Greeks, Chinese or whoever!

Tell us something we don't know.

Answer what question exactly? Have you ever answered one of mine....ever????

To the best of my knowledge I've answered all your questions.

 

[AbbaLove]

Now, again, I'm asking you or annier to name a specific denomination that teaches keeping Torah.

Your question suggests that keeping the Ten Commandments and several hundred ordinances may be sufficient in itself. What about wording your question that represents the entire Torah as including the Brit Chadashah of the Renewed Covenant as a fulfillment of the entire/complete Torah.

"Now, again, I'm asking you or annier to name a specific denomination that teaches keeping the complete Torah?​

The scriptures of the Brit Chadashah in no way negate the Torah, but rather the Living Word is a fulfillment to complete the entire Torah.

Galatians 5:14 CJB
For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself”

Mashiach Yeshua is the Living Word of the complete Torah​

 

[BukiRob]

Here is what I do know. G-d makes it unmistakably clear that the keeping of Sabbath and the observance of HIS feasts are the SIGN/SEAL/MARK of the believer. Rev 7 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."

The head is synonymous with what you think/believe which is seen in what you DO. I find it curious that no believer (at least none that I have met) will argue with you about wither we should be walking obediently in accordance with the 10 commandments... that is until you get to the 4th commandment.

Why is Sabbath such a stumbling block? Why is it an issue? Its an issue because the devil HATES Sabbath. He hates G-d appointed feasts and he will do anything to keep you from observing these things.

HaSatan has convinced the "church" that Sabbath is no longer or that its now observed on the "lords day" HOGWASH. Adonai no where in scripture has declared such a thing. No where in the Hebrew scriptures will you find any of the prophets even making an obscure suggestion.

Gentiles are GRAFTED IN..... Adonai declares there is 1 law for the Jew and the foreigner and alien who sojourns with Yisrael. We aren't a separate oil tree in different soil with different rules...

Scripture declares Torah is TRUTH.... at what point is truth no longer truth? We are told to SEEK the TRUTH because it will set us free. We're told in scripture that the Torah is a lamp a light for our feet.... What then, shall we declare that we have no need of light that its better to stumble around in the darkness????? We are told that Torah is THE WAY... Without Torah we are going another way... Adonai declares there is a way that seems right to man whose end is destruction.... There is 1 way, G-d's way... and it is spelled out in the Torah.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Duplicate

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Your question suggests that keeping the Ten Commandments and several hundred ordinances may be sufficient in itself.

I don't think my question suggests anything of the kind.

What about wording your question that represents the entire Torah as including the Brit Chadashah of the Renewed Covenant as a fulfillment of the entire/complete Torah.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.

The scriptures of the Brit Chadashah in no way negate the Torah, but rather the Living Word is a fulfillment to complete the entire Torah.

Galatians 5:14 CJB
For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself”

Do you believe all the Feasts have been fulfilled and no longer need to be observed (just as one example)? If not, then all is not fulfilled.

If one believes Yeshua is the Living Word, why don't they believe him when he says, "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."
And if the commandments are now written on our hearts as they're supposed to be, then they're still in effect and not nailed to any tree or abolished.

 

[Lulav]

Wow, so you think Isaiah 56 speaks only to Jews?

Isaiah 56:1-8 KJV
1. Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2. Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4. For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5. Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7. Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, [Revelation 14:1] and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8. The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

I especially like this: "A place and a name better than of sons and daughters" . . .

But like was said to Yonah earlier in this thread: one has to actually understand what Yeshua and his talmidim teach, (including Paul) and one also has to actually be willing to do those things, becoming a "eunuch" accordingly as the Scripture portrays and not just according to the flesh and mind of the flesh of carnal minded man which only sees words like "eunuch" as applying to men in and of the flesh: "If your right eye offends you, pluck him out, and cast him from you", "If your hand offends you, cut her off, and cast her from you", "If your foot offends you, cut him off, and cast him from you", for there be five in one house parted asunder, which are likened unto ten virgins, and the man is the house, (and the enemies of the man are those of his own household). It is all given in simple allegories and children tales the likes of which the wise and prudent "scholars" of today are too completely and thoroughly blind to see. So simple even a child can understand: I love it!

To 'take hold of the covenant' includes circumcision.......... also 'joining oneself to the L-RD' involves that as well.

Remember what Ezekiel recorded: This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

To 'take hold of the covenant' includes circumcision.......... also 'joining oneself to the L-RD' involves that as well.

Remember what Ezekiel recorded: This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.

Hello Lulav,
Do you believe that Gentile males should be circumcized today when they join themselves to the LORD, or do you think that's not a part of the new covenant?

 

[Lulav]

It is not necessary to throw out Paul...and it is without cause to put him in opposition to Yeshua...
Paul more than any other teaches as Yeshua that we must become the truth of the Torah as opposed to attempting to follow the true things contained there...also as Yeshua taught that there must be a change in how we are what we are in order to contain this new way.
This new way is Holy Spirit living YHWH's life in and through us...making us his living Torah...we are to see in written Torah who we should be and when we see what is not aligned drive us to trust and dependance on Holy Spirit to do his work in us.
These things being true...the danger of HR is that it would teach Torah with Moses veil... making the flesh removed to grow again and causing the works of that flesh to overcome the fruit of the Spirit in its students.

No one is 'throwing out Paul' I believe that he is a very important part of the bible, but we are told to be discerning in all things.

The point was that these teachings on the Torah are both in the bible, pick one that you believe is the correct one.

1. "That which is unpleasant to you, do not to your neighbor. That is the whole law."
2. “For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself”
3. "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind This is the greatest and most important commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law (Torah) and the prophets."

 

[Lulav]

Hello Lulav,
Do you believe that Gentile males should be circumcized today when they join themselves to the LORD, or do you think that's not a part of the new covenant?

That's a tricky and complicated question, but let me just ask you this, the New Covenant, who was it to be made with?

Behold, the days come , saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

So which of these houses are the gentiles from?

 

[rick357]

No one is 'throwing out Paul' I believe that he is a very important part of the bible, but we are told to be discerning in all things.

The point was that these teachings on the Torah are both in the bible, pick one that you believe is the correct one.


[*]"That which is unpleasant to you, do not to your neighbor. That is the whole law."
[*] “For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself”
[*]"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind This is the greatest and most important commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law (Torah) and the prophets."

The first is Hillel not scripture...Yet Yeshua in the second statment has much more than encompassed his conclusion. As to the third it has no conflict as without giving and entrusting oneself completly to YHWH it is not possible to even clearly comprehend the depth of our desire for forgivness and provedance and fellowship and mercy wich must be given to our neighbor.
further the audience to whom these things were spoke where familiar with Torah... they had heard it when they rose up and when they lay down when they went out and when they came in for all of their lives...Paul goes to greater detail since his audiance did not have this advantage.
he teaches that a man within himself does not have the power to do what is required that it is need for us to trust in God to live through us to make us one who can keep Torah in our body.
he concludes that we should work out our own salvation with fear and trembling... which is to say do the math... YHWH requires us perfect as he is perfect holy as He is holy though man cannot attain to that in himself. any person of understanding would be driven to trust Messiah and His Spirit living in us and through us to reach these standards

 

[rick357]

That's a tricky and complicated question, but let me just ask you this, the New Covenant, who was it to be made with?

Behold, the days come , saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

So which of these houses are the gentiles from?

it would seem unimportant foundation to go from with this question would be Paul was not against circumcision when he said if you are circumsized Messiah will profit you nothing... but specifically he was dealing with those who sought to be justified or declared innocent by the law which can never be done

 

[AbbaLove]

Do you believe all the Feasts have been fulfilled and no longer need to be observed (just as one example)? If not, then all is not fulfilled.

Many Christians (Jews and Gentiles) don't believe all the feasts have been fulfilled.

If one believes Yeshua is the Living Word, why don't they believe him when he says, "If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

Christians (Jews and Gentiles as one new person) do acknowledge the commandment(s) of the Renewed Covenant.

Deuteronomy 6:5 CJB
and you are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources.
Leviticus 19:18 CJB
Don’t take vengeance on or bear a grudge against any of your people; rather, love your neighbor as yourself; I am Adonai.
Luke 10:27 (CJB)
He answered, “You are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your understanding; and your neighbor as yourself.”
John 13:34-35 CJB
34 “I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.
35 Everyone will know that you are my talmidim by the fact that you have love for each other.”
Galatians 5:14 CJB
For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself”

And if the commandments are now written on our hearts as they're supposed to be, then they're still in effect and not nailed to any tree or abolished.

Many Christians (one new person) don't believe the law was abolished, but instead it was the penalty of our sins (death) that was instead paid in full. The real Christians (born again Jews and Gentiles as one new person) will be realized by those that are resurrected to a new life, eternally.

Let me ask you a Question: Why does Orthodox Judaism say that Gentiles only need to adhere to the 7 Noahide Laws with no mention of love for the brethren as quoted in the above verses (e.g. Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18).

 

[Lulav]

The first is Hillel not scripture...Yet Yeshua in the second statment has much more than encompassed his conclusion. As to the third it has no conflict as without giving and entrusting oneself completly to YHWH it is not possible to even clearly comprehend the depth of our desire for forgivness and provedance and fellowship and mercy wich must be given to our neighbor.
further the audience to whom these things were spoke where familiar with Torah... they had heard it when they rose up and when they lay down when they went out and when they came in for all of their lives...Paul goes to greater detail since his audiance did not have this advantage.
he teaches that a man within himself does not have the power to do what is required that it is need for us to trust in God to live through us to make us one who can keep Torah in our body.
he concludes that we should work out our own salvation with fear and trembling... which is to say do the math... YHWH requires us perfect as he is perfect holy as He is holy though man cannot attain to that in himself. any person of understanding would be driven to trust Messiah and His Spirit living in us and through us to reach these standards

I said, those teaching were in the bible, yes Hillel is the originator of the first. However his was in the negative form, while Yeshua's was in the positive.

The Second is what Paul taught

The last is what Yeshua taught.

I don't know what else you are going on about and you obviuosly don't know who said what.

Yeshua clearly gave the proper understanding, it is G-d first and then your neighbor, it is most important to love G-d is it not?

Paul however was teaching from what Hillel taught, not Yeshua as both Hillel and Paul say that loving your neighbor is the sum of Torah.

 

[Lulav]

it would seem unimportant foundation to go from with this question would be Paul was not against circumcision when he said if you are circumsized Messiah will profit you nothing... but specifically he was dealing with those who sought to be justified or declared innocent by the law which can never be done

Paul has nothing to do with this question, it is simple

Behold, the days come , saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

So which of these houses are the gentiles from?

Do you believe this statement in Jeremiah is false? Does Paul change this fact about the new covenant and whom it was to be made with?

 

[rick357]

I said, those teaching were in the bible, yes Hillel is the originator of the first. However his was in the negative form, while Yeshua's was in the positive.

The Second is what Paul taught

The last is what Yeshua taught.

I don't know what else you are going on about and you obviuosly don't know who said what.

Yeshua clearly gave the proper understanding, it is G-d first and then your neighbor, it is most important to love G-d is it not?

Paul however was teaching from what Hillel taught, not Yeshua as both Hillel and Paul say that loving your neighbor is the sum of Torah.

Sorry for my ignorance...and since Paul is Gamiliels student it follows he would be familier with Hillel...my going on is to say that with out first a love for YHWH we can not reach to love our neighbor...maybe we can obtain to Hillel's do no evil...maybe but never to love...

 

[rick357]

Paul has nothing to do with this question, it is simple

So which of these houses are the gentiles from?

Do you believe this statement in Jeremiah is false? Does Paul change this fact about the new covenant and whom it was to be made with?

Paul teaches the nuts and bolts of N T. He nor I consider him to be leaving Israel but bringing in the nations. Yeshua established his covenant with Israel then he grafted in believing Gentiles. we may not be the root but we are definitely part of the tree.

 

[daq]

To 'take hold of the covenant' includes circumcision.......... also 'joining oneself to the L-RD' involves that as well.

Remember what Ezekiel recorded: This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.

That's your interpretation of circumcision but what about the foreskin of the heart and why does Paul speak so much about "the flesh" and "mortifying the deeds of the body"? As for the Ezekiel Temple are you suggesting it is a physical temple building made with hands? If so I ask why then was it not built under Zechariah and Haggai? If you say not enough money and supplies then I ask why not under Herod? If you say it was to be built by Messiah when he comes then I say he already came and said he would raise it in three days and the fleshmongers crucified him for saying so. And that being the case these things are expounded in the Brit Chadashah writings especially including Paul.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

That's a tricky and complicated question, but let me just ask you this, the New Covenant, who was it to be made with?

Behold, the days come , saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

So which of these houses are the gentiles from?

Neither, but why is it a tricky or complicated question?

Your response to the Isaiah 56 scripture was this:

To 'take hold of the covenant' includes circumcision.......... also 'joining oneself to the L-RD' involves that as well.

Remember what Ezekiel recorded: This is what the Sovereign LORD says: No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and flesh is to enter my sanctuary, not even the foreigners who live among the Israelites.

I just don't understand where you're going with this.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Many Christians (Jews and Gentiles) don't believe all the feasts have been fulfilled.


Christians (Jews and Gentiles as one new person) do acknowledge the commandment(s) of the Renewed Covenant.

Deuteronomy 6:5 CJB
and you are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources.
Leviticus 19:18 CJB
Don’t take vengeance on or bear a grudge against any of your people; rather, love your neighbor as yourself; I am Adonai.
Luke 10:27 (CJB)
He answered, “You are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your understanding; and your neighbor as yourself.”
John 13:34-35 CJB
34 “I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.
35 Everyone will know that you are my talmidim by the fact that you have love for each other.”
Galatians 5:14 CJB
For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself”


Many Christians (one new person) don't believe the law was abolished, but instead it was the penalty of our sins (death) that was instead paid in full. The real Christians (born again Jews and Gentiles as one new person) will be realized by those that are resurrected to a new life, eternally.

Let me ask you a Question: Why does Orthodox Judaism say that Gentiles only need to adhere to the 7 Noahide Laws with no mention of love for the brethren as quoted in the above verses (e.g. Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18).

I wasn't aware that Orthodox Jews say this. Maybe you could explain it to me.