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Being freed from the consequences of the law means we are not judged by the law. Therefore the law is a matter of conscience informed by the Holy Spirit.I can't get edit to work on my last post.
To clarify: grace freeing a person from the consequences of failing to keep Torah, doesn't mean it's ok to stop trying to keep Torah.
The law of faith is law as well....Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all walked by this law.It means we'll all fail at some point now and then, and in both the first and new covenant there is a grace provision (blood sacrifice) that sets us free from the consequences of sin (like judgment and being separated from YHWH because of our sin).
Being freed from the consequences of the law means we are not judged by the law. Therefore the law is a matter of conscience informed by the Holy Spirit.
The law of faith is law as well....Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all walked by this law.
As for myself, I would not use 2nd temple courts as an example of correctly keeping the law.We are NOT freed from the consequences of law anymore than we are freed from the consequences of gravity. Torah is like a law of nature, it cannot be muted anymore than the laws of magnetism or physics.
In praxis we do not suffer in this life the literal consequences of the written law, and indeed most people haven't lived under or felt the consequences of Torah, past or present. In fact a "strict" court in the days of the 2nd temple was a court that executed one individual once every 70 years.
I agree with you somewhat here. But I think the above is mixing things a bit."Under the law" is a technical expression current at the time of Paul that means "merciless Torah" (perhaps correlated to the Sadducees) as opposed to the merciful Torah that most Pharisees championed.
As for myself, I would not use 2nd temple courts as an example of correctly keeping the law.
I agree with you somewhat here. But I think the above is mixing things a bit.
Under the law spoke of the Judgement given operation at the hand of Moses.
"As for myself, I would not use 2nd temple courts as an example of correctly keeping the law."
Not sure what point you are making.
"Under the law.......",
I did not think so either.... But yet, debate goes on anyway....no, there is just literally no debate to be had.
It was a technical expression like "raining cats and dogs" and cannot be understood literally, or through speculation, by people divorced from the context.
Very interesting thought. Can someone believe in Jesus (whom you call Messiah) while rejecting the Torah? I believe they can. That is, they believe that the Torah predicted the arrival and work of the Messiah, but once such work was accomplished, the Torah itself as a way of life became obsolete. I don't think that their belief is in some way inconsistent with their assumptions.
One would assert the converse, too: "Those who reject the Messiah reject the Torah," and then you would claim that Orthodox Jews - who reject Jesus - by implication reject the Torah, by the claim that the Torah speaks of Jesus' coming and work.
I don't think it's generally useful to make statements like either of these. It just seems exclusionary.
And yet I've been in messianic congregations that teach that messianic jews are no longer under the law. So I don't think it's just the churches.
By and large I think churches are good, despite areas of concern. I'm downright tired of messianics picking on the catholic church. It just goes to show how PROTESTANT most messianics are.
This is a false claim.Oy, you still miss the point. Its not about the Catholic church... its about the GENTILE church. Prostestant, Catholic, Pentecostal etc... the ALL reject Torah.
And does Moses law command death for sin?Is the believer under the law? No. He or she is NOT under the law of sin and death...
And another false claimthat is NOT the same as saying that the believer is to ignore Torah. Anyone that teaches Torah is not for the believer is teaching the same thing that the Gentile church teaches.
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Under the law spoke of the Judgement given operation at the hand of Moses.
Actually, no, it does not. The Church sees Torah as a lot of quaint suggestions that one can choose to follow, or not follow, as they choose.annier said:This post is full of exagerations. The Church believes and accepts the Torah.
Actually, no, it does not. The Church sees Torah as a lot of quaint suggestions that one can choose to follow, or not follow, as they choose.
English has nothing to do with it. Even Judaism has taught Isreal as a nation and people are set apart by the law given to them. So, I think that because that is what I believe the torah given to Israel by the hand of Moses as teaching that. This notion has nothing to do with English vs Hebrew. As Judaism itself teaches such notions that Gentiles are not subject to the whole law.Why do you think that ?
Because it sounds that way in English ?
This post is also untrue accusations against the Church. Some would say that is what Rabbinic Judaism has done, even anti rabbinic messianics.Actually, no, it does not. The Church sees Torah as a lot of quaint suggestions that one can choose to follow, or not follow, as they choose.
This post is also untrue accusations against the Church. Some would say that is what Rabbinic Judaism has done, even anti rabbinic messianics.
Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Disagreement on what the law teaches, is no cause to accuse.
English has nothing to do with it. Even Judaism has taught Isreal as a nation and people are set apart by the law given to them. So, I think that because that is what I believe the torah given to Israel by the hand of Moses as teaching that. This notion has nothing to do with English vs Hebrew. As Judaism itself teaches such notions that Gentiles are not subject to the whole law.
I am a Noachide Christian, so I do not need to go ask any one else. When asking such a question, Torah, does it mean the Torah given to the nation of Israel? Which Torah is distinct to the covenant made at Sinai? Of course if you ask a Christian if they keep the law in that context certainly they will tell you they do not. Further more, neither does anyone else keep the Torah given at Sinai.Ask ANY Christian on the street. Ask any priest, bishop, patriarch, pope or presbyter. Christians do not keep Torah.
Actually, speaking as a Noachide Christian, not unlike Judaism teaches, The covenant given at Sinai was never given to the nations in the first place. So the notion of the law being "DEAD to them", is not accurate. We which are of the nations being not of the carnal circumcision, never had life by the Sinai covenant, nor were we subject to curses for not being subject to that covenant.The law is dead to them, a curse, a fossilized covenant between God and the Jews.
Christians, like Muslims and Hindus, have many similarities with the Jews when it comes to ethics, but that can be said about all religions.
Sure, this is an aspect of Noachide Christian. It is the common morality which existed before the Law and covenant given to the nation of Israel. Again Judaism itself teaches such notions, not just the church or english speaking peoples.
The Mosaic Levitical code, did not disannul the common morality which existed prior. It was a morality which was "retained" in the Sinai covenant law. Israel clea by which God had judged them. As it was completely universal law ( in Judaism this idea is found in Noachide Law). In scripture it is clearly seen here.
The God of Abraham: Is the Judge of all the earth.
Ge 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall notthe Judge of all the earth do right?
Israel commanded to retain, and maintain the (universal) morality of which all Nations were subject...by the God of Abraham, the Judge of all the earth...
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
They keep more mosaic Torah, but much less Noachide.....Arguably the Muslims keep more of the Torah than the Christians.
Again, The law includes several covenants, as well as additional law from Moses regarding a specific covenant. Honestly I do believe I have a broader application in my use of terms than your posts do.Actually you validate what I said 100%. You apparently think "under the law" (hupo nomon) just means "the law applies". In English, "under" can be used in this way. In the original context you could however have a relation to the law without being "under" it. You could keep it without being "under" it, and so on. Being "under" the law was one of the several relationships you could have to the law. (F.ex you might be "beside the law" or "in the law".)
Being "under" the law means to enjoy/suffer the consequences (positive or negative) of the law. It has nothing (in and of itself) to do with whether the law is good, bad, applicable, inapplicable, void, or whatever.
Can you name a denomination, other than maybe Church of God 7th Day or 7th Day Baptists, that teaches we still have to obey Torah?This post is also untrue accusations against the Church. Some would say that is what Rabbinic Judaism has done, even anti rabbinic messianics.
Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Disagreement on what the law teaches, is no cause to accuse.
True dat!Ask ANY Christian on the street. Ask any priest, bishop, patriarch, pope or presbyter. Christians do not keep Torah. The law is dead to them, a curse, a fossilized covenant between God and the Jews. Christians, like Muslims and Hindus, have many similarities with the Jews when it comes to ethics, but that can be said about all religions.
Arguably the Muslims keep more of the Torah than the Christians.
Hoshiyya said:Ask ANY Christian on the street. Ask any priest, bishop, patriarch, pope or presbyter. Christians do not keep Torah.
I am a Noachide Christian, so I do not need to go ask any one else.
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