Just wondering

[chrisstavrous]

Fine. Why?

Selah.

Well for one many skills a person can learn can be harmfull to others (like the skill of building bombs) Second if all our skills come from god then we have no freedom in creating and recreating things that originally come from ourselves.

 

[paul1149]

Ah I see, faith is nothing but dependence on god to give you the strength to have the faith you couldn't have in him in first place.

Actually you don't see. Your statement is one of cynical unbelief, of faith as mere circular psychological pathology.

God has promised to honor those who honor Him. And Creation, despite its horrendous fallenness, bears witness to His power and glory.

You have said that you spent 13 years in Christ in order to obtain help for this world. Did you not at some point conclude that He is objectively worthy even if our lot here is affliction?

It seems to me that your question is an attempt to justify yourself outside of God. In my experience, that does not work and cannot work. I speak as one who has tried. My trying sent me into spiritual darkness and into the not-so-tender mercies of law and condemnation. But through it I learned the Lord's faithfulness to us even when we are not faithful. He stuck by me in the wilderness, obligated only by His love, and brought me back to grace.

 

[chrisstavrous]

Actually you don't see. Your statement is one of cynical unbelief, of faith as mere circular psychological pathology.

God has promised to honor those who honor Him. And Creation, despite its horrendous fallenness, bears witness to His power and glory.

You have said that you spent 13 years in Christ in order to obtain help for this world. Did you not at some point conclude that He is objectively worthy even if our lot here is affliction?

It seems to me that your question is an attempt to justify yourself outside of God. In my experience, that does not work and cannot work. I speak as one who has tried. My trying sent me into spiritual darkness and into the not-so-tender mercies of law and condemnation. But through it I learned the Lord's faithfulness to us even when we are not faithful. He stuck by me in the wilderness, obligated only by His love, and brought me back to grace.

Yes it's completely up to jesus to bring me back to him now.

 

[aiki]

Well for one many skills a person can learn can be harmfull to others (like the skill of building bombs) Second if all our skills come from god then we have no freedom in creating and recreating things that originally come from ourselves.

Let me be clearer: Our capacity to obtain skills comes from God and can thus be said to be contingent upon Him. Our choice as to what skills we learn, however, is our own and something for which we are responsible. We cannot blame God if we turn our God-given capacities for learning to evil ends and we cannot take all the credit to ourselves when we develop abilities that are positive and beneficial.

Selah.

 

[paul1149]

Yes it's completely up to jesus to bring me back to him now.

That's exactly where I was. He showed me my powerlessness clearly, in a vision of me dangling over an abyss by a single slender thread. I fully expected to die, and began to put my affairs in order. And then over time I realized He hadn't let me go. When I saw His unconditional love, completely undeserved, I was undone.

 

[chrisstavrous]

Let me be clearer: Our capacity to obtain skills comes from God and can thus be said to be contingent upon Him. Our choice as to what skills we learn, however, is our own and something for which we are responsible. We cannot blame God if we turn our God-given capacities for learning to evil ends and we cannot take all the credit to ourselves when we develop abilities that are positive and beneficial.

Selah.

And what you are saying can actually be found as biblical truth, I think not.

 

[chrisstavrous]

That's exactly where I was. He showed me my powerlessness clearly, in a vision of me dangling over an abyss by a single slender thread. I fully expected to die, and began to put my affairs in order. And then over time I realized He hadn't let me go. When I saw His unconditional love, completely undeserved, I was undone.

Have you ever been in love with someone? how do you think it would make them feel if you told them every day "I love you, but always know you never deserved it" Don't you think that saying that to another person is abusive?

 

[paul1149]

Man, He made you. Let's get a sense of proportion here. Besides, the Bible itself says that love keeps no account of wrongs. God is love, and His love is perfect. You don't need to worry about control, resentment, etc. That was my comment on my worthiness. God does not reproach.

Whatever turned you against Him, I can guarantee it wasn't an accurate reflection of Him. Even the church misrepresents Him, and not infrequently. He even abundantly warned us it would. He is not behind the mess that this world is, and has done everything possible - far more than He needed to do - to provide the solution.

What's more, I can also guarantee that He cares about whatever hurts or offenses you have suffered, and wants to heal them. Someday He will wipe away every tear. When the stumbling blocks come, don't run away from Him, run toward Him.

 

[chrisstavrous]

Man, He made you. Let's get a sense of proportion here. Besides, the Bible itself says that love keeps no account of wrongs. God is love, and His love is perfect. You don't need to worry about control, resentment, etc. That was my comment on my worthiness. God does not reproach.

Whatever turned you against Him, I can guarantee it wasn't an accurate reflection of Him. Even the church misrepresents Him, and not infrequently. He even abundantly warned us it would. He is not behind the mess that this world is, and has done everything possible - far more than He needed to do - to provide the solution.

What's more, I can also guarantee that He cares about whatever hurts or offenses you have suffered, and wants to heal them. Someday He will wipe away every tear. When the stumbling blocks come, don't run away from Him, run toward Him.

I don't think that anyone can be worthy or unworthy of love, you don't love your children for either of those reasons, you love them because they are your children. I see the god of the bible as a thug a bully who christians say asks you to choose to love him, but if you don't choose his way he threatens you with uspeakable torture in the future. The god of the bible sounds like the abusive husband who is constantly telling his wife she is useless without him and undeserving of his love (I work hard all day and you can't even have my meal ready when I get home!) Of course she would be met with verbal abuse and a beating. But when all is done and dusted and the fights over, you know why she stays? Fear? No, she stays because she still thinks he loves her.

 

[paul1149]

Basically, He says choose my way because my way is the only way to have life. If you choose your own way, you are choosing the absence of God, which amounts to hell. If you go that way, you have to try to prove that you have life in yourself, and that's a losing battle.

He's done everything possible to unlock the door for you. He hung on a tree and allowed himself to be tortured to death for you. That's hardly the action of an abuser. If you want to reject Him, that's your prerogative, but again, you're basing it on a distorted image of Him. When He pulls Holy Spirit from the earth all delusions of a good life independent of Him will be wiped away.

 

[aiki]

And what you are saying can actually be found as biblical truth, I think not.

Oh? I am expressing basic Christian belief here.

Psa 139:14 I will praise you; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are your works; and that my soul knows right well.
Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from you, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, yet being unperfect; and in your book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

The Psalmist speaks here of a basic truth of Scripture: God is our Creator. He makes us who we are. Tall or short, fat or skinny, smart or...not - on a fundamental level God imparts to us all we are and can be.

Selah.

 

[chrisstavrous]

Basically, He says choose my way because my way is the only way to have life. If you choose your own way, you are choosing the absence of God, which amounts to hell. If you go that way, you have to try to prove that you have life in yourself, and that's a losing battle.

He's done everything possible to unlock the door for you. He hung on a tree and allowed himself to be tortured to death for you. That's hardly the action of an abuser. If you want to reject Him, that's your prerogative, but again, you're basing it on a distorted image of Him. When He pulls Holy Spirit from the earth all delusions of a good life independent of Him will be wiped away.

Exactly, it's like the abusive husband warning his wife if she doesn't do as he says then she will recieve a thrashing. As to god doing everything possible by dying on a cross 2000 years ago, that sounds creepy to me now.

 

[chrisstavrous]

Oh? I am expressing basic Christian belief here.

Psa 139:14 I will praise you; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are your works; and that my soul knows right well.
Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from you, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psa 139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, yet being unperfect; and in your book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

The Psalmist speaks here of a basic truth of Scripture: God is our Creator. He makes us who we are. Tall or short, fat or skinny, smart or...not - on a fundamental level God imparts to us all we are and can be.

Selah.

Those bible passages are vague at best, find me a bible passage that says god creates all our human skills and I will yield. (I am not afraid of being wrong so long it's for the right reason.)

 

[Lukaris]

We are collectively so merciful when left to our own devices with all the war & genocidal tendencies that account for much of our history. A "god" who offers everlasting life from this & the already natural catastrophes we suffer could never be so merciful.

 

[aiki]

Those bible passages are vague at best, find me a bible passage that says god creates all our human skills and I will yield. (I am not afraid of being wrong so long it's for the right reason.)

Vague? I don't think so...In any case, I didn't say God "created all our skills" but only that He created our capacity to develop whatever skills we wish. I wrote,

"Let me be clearer: Our capacity to obtain skills comes from God and can thus be said to be contingent upon Him."

It seems crystal clear to me that if God is my Creator (and Sustainer), my existence is entirely contingent upon Him. If God does not exist, neither do I. About what, then, can I be indepedent and self-glorying? My very existence depends upon God.

Selah.

 

[chrisstavrous]

Vague? I don't think so...In any case, I didn't say God "created all our skills" but only that He created our capacity to develop whatever skills we wish. I wrote,

"Let me be clearer: Our capacity to obtain skills comes from God and can thus be said to be contingent upon Him."

It seems crystal clear to me that if God is my Creator (and Sustainer), my existence is entirely contingent upon Him. If God does not exist, neither do I. About what, then, can I be indepedent and self-glorying? My very existence depends upon God.

Selah.

So it was god who created my mental illness while I was made in my mothers womb. (Since you say he makes us tall or small)

 

[aiki]

So it was god who created my mental illness while I was made in my mothers womb. (Since you say he makes us tall or small)

No, but He did allow the corruption of sin to make you susceptible to mental illness. Were you mentally ill in the womb? I think not.

Selah.

 

[chrisstavrous]

No, but He did allow the corruption of sin to make you susceptible to mental illness. Were you mentally ill in the womb? I think not.

Selah.

Well I think it's time for me to get off this merry go round.