just wondering!

[heatherwayno]

Don't misquote him. He is saying to stop using AiG, which is NOT the Bible.

Yes- I know that is it NOT the bible. It is backing up biblical events that TE's and others are trying to deny ever existing. It just seems like some people here have a faith defiency in God and that is sad.

 

[Jase]

Yes- I know that is it NOT the bible. It is backing up biblical events that TE's and others are trying to deny ever existing. It just seems like some people here have a faith defiency in God and that is sad.

No, some of us just don't believe in removing our brain to support a mythical story that was never intended to be taken literally.

 

[Melethiel]

I can't speak for anyone else here, but my faith is in Christ and his Gospel, not in whether Genesis is literal or not. People seem to miss that it is Christ who is the chief cornerstone, not Genesis. A literal interpretation of Genesis is not the foundation of the Church, Christ is.

 

[FallingWaters]

Stop using AIG for your arguments. They do not do science, and are completely wrong in everything they post. They aren't much better than Kent Hovind.

Sorry. I posted that in answer to the OP which was a request for information concerning the "races". I happen to respect the opinions at AIG.

 

[Jase]

Sorry. I posted that in answer to the OP which was a request for information concerning the "races". I happen to respect the opinions at AIG.

Despite them misleading people? You can respect their opinions all you want, but they are giving people wrong information.

 

[heatherwayno]

I would turn this entire question back onto you. Where does it say that it's literal? Before the Enlightenment, people would naturally have read it as legendary. Legends and allegories were the normal way of communication - not dry histories. Have you ever read any medieval histories? They are chock full of legends presented as fact.

Yes- but their authors were merely human. Yes- so are the bibles- but they are God inspired. Does that not give them any credibility?? It doesn't say that the bible is literal but in Mark (the verses are posted earlier in this thread), it discusses people twisting the words around to suit their needs. Where does it say that God doesn't really mean what he has inspired the authors to write? Does it make sense that he would write a book that only educated people could really understand? Is the joke on us that we are choosing to believe every word of the bible? The bible says we are to have the faith of a child- we may not understand every word or have the wordly evidence to prove it. We don't need to. Obviously in your eyes- an average person should not read the bible. You didn't say that but it would be a waste of time becuase we don't have the intelligence to be able to know what God really means. It seems to me that you would not know that the tower of Babel story is supposed to represent something else unless you had a backgroung in science-esp. in populations and what happens when groups are put togheter- how their characteristics become alike ect. So, if you do not have a vast knowledge on a variety of subjects- then the bible is not for you. It is only for those who are smart enough to know why God has put things into the bible. Us dumb folk just look stupid because we tend to fully trust God in every area- even when his words seems to contradict those of you who think you know exactly how life originated and know better than God who is the designer in the first place. After all you are saying that the was he said it int he bible didn't really happen- you are saying that he is wrong and that the bible cannot be trusted. So, unless you are very smart- don't read the bible because you are just going to fall for a bunch of lies- that only a select few will be able to understand. Is it that only the "intellegent" people have the real truth and therefore the true Christians?? Do you see how high and mighty this sounds???

 

[FallingWaters]

sorry. double post.

 

[FallingWaters]

Despite them misleading people? You can respect their opinions all you want, but they are giving people wrong information.

But that's your opinion. My opinion is that they are teaching the truth, and as far as I know, we are each allowed to have our own opinion.

 

[heatherwayno]

I can't speak for anyone else here, but my faith is in Christ and his Gospel, not in whether Genesis is literal or not. People seem to miss that it is Christ who is the chief cornerstone, not Genesis. A literal interpretation of Genesis is not the foundation of the Church, Christ is.

Yes- you are correct- Christ is the foundation. That is really the only thing we must agree on. However- Genesis 3:15 ( I think that is the specific verse) tells of the need for a saviour- says he will come from the seed of a women (which says will be virgin born), and that he will be bruised but will crush the one who bruises him. This is exactly what happened- so you have to agree that at least some of Genesis has to be taken literally. Why some and not all? How do we know what to believe and what not to??

 

[heatherwayno]

But that's your opinion. My opinion is that they are teaching the truth, and as far as I know, we are each allowed to have our own opinion.

What you really mean is that they are giving wrong info because they are basing it on the bible and it is not really accurate. Follow the world whenever in doubt.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

hat only a select few will be able to understand. Is it that only the "intellegent" people have the real truth and therefore the true Christians?? Do you see how high and mighty this sounds???



I watched a "vegie tales" for the first time Sunday night at our church's life group. We don't have little kids so i was unaware of the series except by name.

Several little kids (under 5) sang along with the whole 30 minutes tape, every word and obviously enjoying it.

I nearly laughed my head off at the sarcasm and literary references, reminded me of "fractured flickers" years ago that did the same kind of thing.

Now did those kids get something out of the show?
of course.
did they laugh at the same things i did?
of course not.

why?

omlette is a complex play on Shakespeares Hamlet, did the kids get all the literary references? nope, nor did i. i'm sure i could reread the script and see even more.

Scripture is like this only on a much more complex stage.
are you aware of just how many puns there are in the Hebrew Scriptures? roughly one every 10 words and some verses are 4 and 5 layers of complex puns.

why?
because of the structure of semitic languages built on 3 consonant blocks.

now can someone read a complex pun and not have any awareness that it is there and still get something out of that verse?

of course, the kids throughly enjoyed the movie without knowing any Shakespeare or Rogers and Hammerstein etc.


the point is that Scripture is extremely complex and parts of it really do take an expert to understand and explain. To minimize this because of some anti-elitism ideology is just that a pre-conception of what Scripture is.

Now can a simple child understand Scripture?
depends on the topic, i think that those things essential to salvation are available to the ignorant and educated IF they apply themselves and use the normal means of grace.

So?
Genesis 1 is certainly about the Sabbath, after that the big issue is the neighboring gods and putting them into their lowly place. Can i get something out of it if i didn't know that the Babylonians were astronomers and worshipers of the moon and sun? of course but you will miss a big part of it just as those kids the other night missed several layers of reference and humor and saw vegetables talking and dancing and laughed at that level.

 

[Jase]

What you really mean is that they are giving wrong info because they are basing it on the bible and it is not really accurate. Follow the world whenever in doubt.

No, they are giving wrong info because they are masquerading it as science. You can't prove the events in the Bible with the Bible. That is circular logic.

And who created the world? Did not God create it? If so, why shouldn't I investigate and study God's creation?

 

[Melethiel]

Yes- you are correct- Christ is the foundation. That is really the only thing we must agree on. However- Genesis 3:15 ( I think that is the specific verse) tells of the need for a saviour- says he will come from the seed of a women (which says will be virgin born), and that he will be bruised but will crush the one who bruises him. This is exactly what happened- so you have to agree that at least some of Genesis has to be taken literally. Why some and not all? How do we know what to believe and what not to??

Actually, this is exactly the way we read Genesis - to glean the theological information. If you read that passage literally, it says that the son of Eve will step on a serpent's head. If you read it theologically, you get exactly that meaning...that a man will be born who will crush the [metaphorical] serpent.

 

[heatherwayno]

No, they are giving wrong info because they are masquerading it as science. You can't prove the events in the Bible with the Bible. That is circular logic.

And who created the world? Did not God create it? If so, why shouldn't I investigate and study God's creation?

By all means- yes investigate and study it. But if your conclusions are different from what God has said that is a problem.

 

[Melethiel]

Yes- but their authors were merely human. Yes- so are the bibles- but they are God inspired. Does that not give them any credibility?? It doesn't say that the bible is literal but in Mark (the verses are posted earlier in this thread), it discusses people twisting the words around to suit their needs. Where does it say that God doesn't really mean what he has inspired the authors to write? Does it make sense that he would write a book that only educated people could really understand? Is the joke on us that we are choosing to believe every word of the bible? The bible says we are to have the faith of a child- we may not understand every word or have the wordly evidence to prove it. We don't need to. Obviously in your eyes- an average person should not read the bible. You didn't say that but it would be a waste of time becuase we don't have the intelligence to be able to know what God really means. It seems to me that you would not know that the tower of Babel story is supposed to represent something else unless you had a backgroung in science-esp. in populations and what happens when groups are put togheter- how their characteristics become alike ect. So, if you do not have a vast knowledge on a variety of subjects- then the bible is not for you. It is only for those who are smart enough to know why God has put things into the bible. Us dumb folk just look stupid because we tend to fully trust God in every area- even when his words seems to contradict those of you who think you know exactly how life originated and know better than God who is the designer in the first place. After all you are saying that the was he said it int he bible didn't really happen- you are saying that he is wrong and that the bible cannot be trusted. So, unless you are very smart- don't read the bible because you are just going to fall for a bunch of lies- that only a select few will be able to understand. Is it that only the "intellegent" people have the real truth and therefore the true Christians?? Do you see how high and mighty this sounds???

Whoah, whoah...MAJOR strawmen alert.

Obviously in your eyes- an average person should not read the bible.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Have I ever said that?

It seems to me that you would not know that the tower of Babel story is supposed to represent something else unless you had a backgroung in science-esp. in populations and what happens when groups are put togheter- how their characteristics become alike ect.

I don't believe that the story of Babel is supposed to be read scientifically. Why then, would I expect one to have a working knowledge of population ecology? Instead, you look at what theological information can be gleaned from that story. That God is all-powerful perhaps? That one cannot reach God by their own efforts?

The bible says we are to have the faith of a child

Children understand legends much better than many adults, I've found.

Where does it say that God doesn't really mean what he has inspired the authors to write?

Answer this question for me. Is the Bible a scientific textbook, or is it a theological text written to show us the way to God?

On a side note, could you please break up your posts into paragraphs? It's really difficult to read a huge block of text.

 

[Jase]

By all means- yes investigate and study it. But if your conclusions are different from what God has said that is a problem.

Then we can't investigate it, since everything in creation disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible. And God never said Genesis was literal. You have to assume that is the case.

 

[heatherwayno]

Whoah, whoah...MAJOR strawmen alert.



Please don't put words in my mouth. Have I ever said that?



I don't believe that the story of Babel is supposed to be read scientifically. Why then, would I expect one to have a working knowledge of population ecology? Instead, you look at what theological information can be gleaned from that story. That God is all-powerful perhaps? That one cannot reach God by their own efforts?



Children understand legends much better than many adults, I've found.



Answer this question for me. Is the Bible a scientific textbook, or is it a theological text written to show us the way to God?

On a side note, could you please break up your posts into paragraphs? It's really difficult to read a huge block of text.

strawmen- an argument which is intended to distract the other side from the real issues or waste the opponent's time and effort.

If my posts fall into this categroy- why waste your time reading them?

 

[Melethiel]

strawmen- an argument which is intended to distract the other side from the real issues or waste the opponent's time and effort.

If my posts fall into this categroy- why waste your time reading them?

I do not like to see misconceptions being promoted. Anyway, school doesn't start until tomorrow, so I've plenty of time on my hands.

 

[Mallon]

Wow. Suffice it to say, this thread has gotten way out of hand. I can't help but feel a little hurt by some of the words that have been put into my mouth. I think I will graciously back out lest I say something I might regret. But before I do, I would like to clarify:
1) I DO NOT think the Bible is ludicrous.
2) My faith is in Christ; not "the world." Though I do trust science the same way everyone else here does, whether they know it or not. We trust science every time we use the internet, pop an Asprin, or dye our hair. Science is a gift from God, as I'm sure any cancer survivor will attest to.
3) I am no more guilty of "twisting" the words of the Bible than anyone else here. I think an understanding of the history of biblical interpretation from before the Enlightenment will show that. rmwilliamsll has certainly been doing his best to get that message across.

God bless.

 

[heatherwayno]

hat only a select few will be able to understand. Is it that only the "intellegent" people have the real truth and therefore the true Christians?? Do you see how high and mighty this sounds???



I watched a "vegie tales" for the first time Sunday night at our church's life group. We don't have little kids so i was unaware of the series except by name.

Several little kids (under 5) sang along with the whole 30 minutes tape, every word and obviously enjoying it.

I nearly laughed my head off at the sarcasm and literary references, reminded me of "fractured flickers" years ago that did the same kind of thing.

Now did those kids get something out of the show?
of course.
did they laugh at the same things i did?
of course not.

why?

omlette is a complex play on Shakespeares Hamlet, did the kids get all the literary references? nope, nor did i. i'm sure i could reread the script and see even more.

Scripture is like this only on a much more complex stage.
are you aware of just how many puns there are in the Hebrew Scriptures? roughly one every 10 words and some verses are 4 and 5 layers of complex puns.

why?
because of the structure of semitic languages built on 3 consonant blocks.

now can someone read a complex pun and not have any awareness that it is there and still get something out of that verse?

of course, the kids throughly enjoyed the movie without knowing any Shakespeare or Rogers and Hammerstein etc.


the point is that Scripture is extremely complex and parts of it really do take an expert to understand and explain. To minimize this because of some anti-elitism ideology is just that a pre-conception of what Scripture is.

Now can a simple child understand Scripture?
depends on the topic, i think that those things essential to salvation are available to the ignorant and educated IF they apply themselves and use the normal means of grace.

So?
Genesis 1 is certainly about the Sabbath, after that the big issue is the neighboring gods and putting them into their lowly place. Can i get something out of it if i didn't know that the Babylonians were astronomers and worshipers of the moon and sun? of course but you will miss a big part of it just as those kids the other night missed several layers of reference and humor and saw vegetables talking and dancing and laughed at that level.

So according to this- it was not until recently that the bible was fully inderstood? I mean- until it was discovered that there was no global flood- which was probably pretty recent- everyone who read that and believed it was wrong? It doesn't make sense that God would deieve people until science was advanced enought to shed light on the real meaning. Sounds like a strawmen- in the words of the moderator.