Just what is satan capable of. 2 Cor 11

[Axion]

Again we see the sectarians attacking Marian Apparitions. Since to admit these are from God would blow away their whole theology, they have to say "They are from the devil."

Do you not know that this was precisely the charge that the pharisees made against Jesus - that His healing power came from the devil?

Jesus says this:
Mark3 25-26 "If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come."

In all the approved Marian appearances She calls for prayer and repentance, and for people to follow Jesus. As Jesus teaches, Satan cannot do this.
How else are we told in the Bible to discern whether things are of God or not?

1 Cor 12.3: You know when you were pagans somehow or other you were influenced by and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says "Jesus be cursed". and no one can say Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."

At Guadeloupe Mary proclaimed Her Son, Jesus, as Lord. At Fatima, She gave the Children a new prayer: "Oh my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need."

Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits

The Apparitions of Mary proclaim Jesus as Lord, they urge repentance, obedience to God, and prayer.
So using the scriptural reference for discernment, we prove that these apparitions of Mary cannot be from Satan. They must therefore be of God.

 

[lionroar0]

Again we see the sectarians attacking Marian Apparitions. Since to admit these are from God would blow away their whole theology, they have to say "They are from the devil."

And that's one reason why she is asking for reperations to her Immaculate heart.

Peace

 

[sunlover1]

Again we see the sectarians attacking Marian Apparitions. Since to admit these are from God would blow away their whole theology, they have to say "They are from the devil."

Do you not know that this was precisely the charge that the pharisees made against Jesus - that His healing power came from the devil?

...The Apparitions of Mary proclaim Jesus as Lord, they urge repentance, obedience to God, and prayer.
So using the scriptural reference for discernment, we prove that these apparitions of Mary cannot be from Satan. They must therefore be of God.

To admit they're from God would blow away
my 'what' theology?
I have no problem with mary, just so long as she's left in her place
and not exulted to high places.
WHEN she gets exalted, the Spirit in me
doesn't like it. God is a jealous God, what
can I say...

If you can say what you said above, in all
honesty, AFTER reading what Iollain
has shown you, (I highlighted a few things)
then there may be a big
problem and we should be praying for you.
Because this is NOT pointing to God, but
to Mary.
Mary
Mary
Mary, it's all I hear half the time, it's
in peoples sigs,
on their walls,
on the churches,
on the websites,
on their necks,
tee shirts,
statues in their yards
... etc.

Our Mother of Mercy Church

Our Lady of Mercy Church

Mary our Mother foundation

Mary Immaculate Church

St Mary the Virgin Church

Assumption of the Blessed VIRgin Mary Church

St Mary the Virgin Church

What about the Immaculate Heart, everything to Christ, through Mary, what about the pope's prayer for the indwelling of Mary, what about the Total Consecration? YOu may not want to admit it but yes, it is there.

]"Jesus wishes to establish devotion to my Immaculate Heart in the world.I promise salvation to those that embrace it." [/color]
---Our Lady of Fatima

On the chosen day, make the intention of receiving the indulgences attached to the consecration; consciously renounce all attachment to sin, even venial; go to Confession; attend Mass; receive the Eucharist; pray 6 Paters, 6 Aves, and 6 Glorias for the (Catholic and holy) intentions of the Pope; and pray the prayer of consecration written by St. Maximilian:

O Immaculata, Queen of Heaven and earth, refuge of sinners and our most loving Mother, God has willed to entrust the entire order of mercy to thee. I, N___, a repentant sinner, cast myself at thy feet humbly imploring thee to take me with all that I am and have, wholly to thyself as thy possession and property. Please make of me, of all my powers of soul and body, of my whole life, death and eternity, whatever most pleases thee. If it pleases thee, use all that I am and have without reserve, wholly to accomplish what was said of thee: "She will crush your head," and, "Thou alone have destroyed all heresies in the whole world."

Let me be a fit instrument in thine Immaculate and merciful hands for introducing and increasing the maximum in all the many strayed and indifferent souls, and thus help extend as far as possible the blessed Kingdom of the most Sacred Heart of Jesus. For wherever thou enters, one obtains the grace of conversion and growth in holiness, since it is through thy hands that all graces come to us from the most Sacred Heart of Jesus.


.........so much for saying 'Mary, pray for me for whatever', this is wayyyy more than that, this is treating Mary as if she were the Spirit, imo.

WOW

 

[Iollain]

On the chosen day, make the intention of receiving the indulgences attached to the consecration; consciously renounce all attachment to sin, even venial; go to Confession; attend Mass; receive the Eucharist; pray 6 Paters, 6 Aves, and 6 Glorias for the (Catholic and holy) intentions of the Pope; and pray the prayer of consecration written by St. Maximilian:

O Immaculata, Queen of Heaven and earth, refuge of sinners and our most loving Mother, God has willed to entrust the entire order of mercy to thee. I, N___, a repentant sinner, cast myself at thy feet humbly imploring thee to take me with all that I am and have, wholly to thyself as thy possession and property. Please make of me, of all my powers of soul and body, of my whole life, death and eternity, whatever most pleases thee. If it pleases thee, use all that I am and have without reserve, wholly to accomplish what was said of thee: "She will crush your head," and, "Thou alone have destroyed all heresies in the whole world."

Let me be a fit instrument in thine Immaculate and merciful hands for introducing and increasing the maximum in all the many strayed and indifferent souls, and thus help extend as far as possible the blessed Kingdom of the most Sacred Heart of Jesus. For wherever thou enters, one obtains the grace of conversion and growth in holiness, since it is through thy hands that all graces come to us from the most Sacred Heart of Jesus.





..........this does not jive one bit with the Bible, it is against it and opposite it.

The Bible say that God, Son, Spirit, will do these things.

 

[Jagito]

The point i guess is the center of our faith. It is true that even the devil can quote the bible and yes, we know a tree by its fruit yet we cant deny the fact that to follow the devotion to Fatima or Mary takes precedence over Jesus which is the other way around and shouldnt be the case. God is a jealous God and surely, He can't allow multi character devotions.



Jagito

 

[lionroar0]

And strangely enough those that are consecrated to her Immaculate Heart have to meditate on the birth, life and death of our Lord.

Not to mention the morning offering, wich is offering everyone's thoughts and actions to God.

Peace

 

[lionroar0]

The point i guess is the center of our faith. It is true that even the devil can quote the bible and yes, we know a tree by its fruit yet we cant deny the fact that to follow the devotion to Fatima or Mary takes precedence over Jesus which is the other way around and shouldnt be the case. God is a jealous God and surely, He can't allow multi character devotions.

Fatima does not take precedence over Jesus it points to Jesus.

God is a jealous God and surely, He can't allow multi character devotions.

So God would not approve of someone being a devoted mother, father, son , daughter, friend ect...?

Peace

 

[Jagito]

Why do we have to deal with all the saints when God is reachable, available and viable thru Christ? What's the point of claiming that God is more than enough ? The apostles have set forth in clear, unequivocal terms what christian faith is all about and why does the church would have to add more religious icons other than Jesus? My point is brief. Christ alone is the way to the Father, yet we're told to come to these personalities to approach Jesus by way of their purported intercession. It just doesn't make sense to me.


Jagito.

 

[lionroar0]

Why do we have to deal with all the saints when God is reachable, available and viable thru Christ? What's the point of claiming that God is more than enough ? The apostles have set forth in clear, unequivocal terms what christian faith is all about and why does the church would have to add more religious icons other than Jesus? My point is brief.

The highest form of prayer is the Eucharist. The mass is centered around the Euchatist. The Eucharist is Christ.

It is not about the Church adding Icons other then Jesus.

It is about God showing us that we can be Christlike in this life. That is why we have the Saints.

On one level your asking why the Church is adding Icons other then Jesus then on another you bring up the Apostles who are other Icons other then Jesus.

Who made the Apostles other Icons. God or the Church?

Also Saint Luke was not an Apostle. Who added St. Luke?

Christ alone is the way to the Father, yet we're told to come to these personalities to approach Jesus by way of their purported intercession. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Intercerssion is what one Christian does for another. We can ask other to pray with and for us. That includes the Saints in heaven.

Peace

 

[Jagito]

Christ is the ONLY WAY, TRUTH AND THE LIFE. On this premise, I am against the veneration of Mary and the saints as these are only humans not as blameless like Jesus and if even angels refused to be kneeled down as bible tells us when they showed up to some disciples, i think it is more prudent for Mary and the saints to refuse the same act. They are entitled to respect, great respect in fact for the willingness to be part of God's accomplishment of his plan for mankind but i also believe this must must exclude veneration/worship. This negates the absolute humility of the angels. If we are to contemplate on our spiritual journey, it should be on Jesus, with Jesus and by Jesus alone.



Jagito

 

[lionroar0]

Christ is the ONLY WAY, TRUTH AND THE LIFE. On this premise, I am against the veneration of Mary and the saints as these are only humans not as blameless like Jesus and if even angels refused to be kneeled down as bible tells us when they showed up to some disciples, i think it is more prudent for Mary and the saints to refuse the same act.

It seems to me that you are confused and have not been Catechised correctly.

No one has stated that Christ is not the way, truth and the life. Veneration does not mean worship. Kneeling does not mean worship either.

I see two things happening here.

1. You are confusing veneration with worship

2. You are confusing the physical act ot kneeling with an interior intention. The diciples started to worship them. That is why the angels told them to get up.

When I was doing martials arts I knelt and bowed to other students and my teacher and I know I was not worshipping them.

Also people have knelt as a sign of respect in front royalty such as the queen of England.

Veneration is respect and could even mean great respect as you. Which is what we have to the Saints.

Worship is for God alone.

They are entitled to respect, great respect in fact for the willingness to be part of God's accomplishment of his plan for mankind but i also believe this must must exclude veneration/worship.

See above.

This negates the absolute humility of the angels. If we are to contemplate on our spiritual journey, it should be on Jesus, with Jesus and by Jesus alone

As I have said before you are confusing veneration with worship.

When was the lat time you partook of the Eucharist?


Peace

 

[Axion]

Christ is the ONLY WAY, TRUTH AND THE LIFE. On this premise, I am against the veneration of Mary and the saints

So I presume you are also against honouring your Father and Mother, honouring national heroes, respecting thoise who have done great service for you or for otherrs - or any other honour given to humans?

That is what you are saying here.

You have fallen into the fallacy promoted by certain extreme protestant fundamentalists which is the fallacy of the FALSE CONTRADICTION.

That is the fallacy of saying "Because I Love and Worship Jesus, I cannot love and honour Mary and the Saints." or going one step further: "Because I love and hworship Jesus, loving and honouring Mary and the Saints detracts from this."

In truth of course there is NO contradiction. Honouring Mary and honouring Jesus are NOT opposed - in fact they augment each other.

Your argument is like saying, "Because I honour my Father, I cannot honour my mother or my brothers." or "Because I love my Father, loving my Mother is wrong and takes away from my love of my Father." Do you see how silly such an argument is?

Loving and honouring Mary and the Saints draws Millions closer to Jesus and to God. In the lives of Mary and the Saints we can see how true Christian discipleship is worked out in the world - and Mary and the Saints remain our helpers and fellowshipers in heaven.

 

[Iollain]

So I presume you are also against honouring your Father and Mother, honouring national heroes, respecting thoise who have done great service for you or for otherrs - or any other honour given to humans?

That is what you are saying here.

You have fallen into the fallacy promoted by certain extreme protestant fundamentalists which is the fallacy of the FALSE CONTRADICTION.

That is the fallacy of saying "Because I Love and Worship Jesus, I cannot love and honour Mary and the Saints." or going one step further: "Because I love and hworship Jesus, loving and honouring Mary and the Saints detracts from this."

In truth of course there is NO contradiction. Honouring Mary and honouring Jesus are NOT opposed - in fact they augment each other.

Your argument is like saying, "Because I honour my Father, I cannot honour my mother or my brothers." or "Because I love my Father, loving my Mother is wrong and takes away from my love of my Father." Do you see how silly such an argument is?

Loving and honouring Mary and the Saints draws Millions closer to Jesus and to God. In the lives of Mary and the Saints we can see how true Christian discipleship is worked out in the world - and Mary and the Saints remain our helpers and fellowshipers in heaven.

This is far far more than that.....

O Immaculata, Queen of Heaven and earth, refuge of sinners and our most loving Mother, God has willed to entrust the entire order of mercy to thee. I, N___, a repentant sinner, cast myself at thy feet humbly imploring thee to take me with all that I am and have, wholly to thyself as thy possession and property. Please make of me, of all my powers of soul and body, of my whole life, death and eternity, whatever most pleases thee. If it pleases thee, use all that I am and have without reserve, wholly to accomplish what was said of thee: "She will crush your head," and, "Thou alone have destroyed all heresies in the whole world."

Let me be a fit instrument in thine Immaculate and merciful hands for introducing and increasing the maximum in all the many strayed and indifferent souls, and thus help extend as far as possible the blessed Kingdom of the most Sacred Heart of Jesus. For wherever thou enters, one obtains the grace of conversion and growth in holiness, since it is through thy hands that all graces come to us from the most Sacred Heart of Jesus.



.........it takes of God and gives it to Mary, you end up with a big mess of people thinking Mary is this and that and taking over where the Holy Spirit left off........it's just crazy.

 

[Jagito]

What is the difference between veneration and worship? You dont even have to determine the intention of the act to know that there is actually no variance between the two. Veneration is implied in worship. The latter is impossible without veneration. I repeat, am a catholic but i insist that there is no biblical basis to venerate Mary and the Saints. Human reasoning has stretched some of the areas of biblical truths where God himself made them clear, brief and concise. Had He wanted us to venerate Mary and the Saints to be part of our salvation, i believe He would have said so in clear manner but not even one of the disciples taught the said concept in their evangelic ministry.

 

[Axion]

What is the difference between veneration and worship? You dont even have to determine the intention of the act to know that there is actually no variance between the two. Veneration is implied in worship. The latter is impossible without veneration.

This is again impossible logic.

"Veneration is implied in worship" therefore "veneration equals worship"?????

By that logic A Cat has legs therefore everything with legs must be a cat!

No. That's not true is it?

Even closer to the case: You hug your mother, therefore everyone you hug must be your mother???

In the words of Fagin: I think you'd better think it out again.

I repeat, am a catholic but i insist that there is no biblical basis to venerate Mary and the Saints. Human reasoning has stretched some of the areas of biblical truths where God himself made them clear, brief and concise. Had He wanted us to venerate Mary and the Saints to be part of our salvation, i believe He would have said so in clear manner but not even one of the disciples taught the said concept in their evangelic ministry.

A Catholic is someone who believes in Catholicism.

I note your symbol is not the Catholic one. More importantly I note that you seem attached to two doctrines that are the opposite of Catholic teaching

1. That all doctrine is held in the Bible. The bible was made by the Church as a part of its teaching office.

2. You deny the communion of Saints which is central to the creed, and a major part of the Historic Christian faith

 

[Kepha]

A Catholic is someone who believes in Catholicism.

I note your symbol is not the Catholic one. More importantly I note that you seem attached to two doctrines that are the opposite of Catholic teaching

1. That all doctrine is held in the Bible. The bible was made by the Church as a part of its teaching office.

2. You deny the communion of Saints which is central to the creed, and a major part of the Historic Christian faith

Agreed. It's like saying "I'm a protestant but believe the Pope is the Vicar of Christ".

It annoys me personally when I hear people from time to time say this yet sprout out their own personal doctrines in major contradiction to Dogma of the Catholic Church.

 

[kepha31]

By the year 100 A.D., Christians were honoring other Christians who had died, and asking for their intercession. Many people think that honoring saints was something the Church set up later, but it was part of Christianity from the very beginning. As a matter of fact, this practice came from a long-standing tradition in the Jewish faith of honoring prophets and holy people with shrines. The first saints were martyrs, people who had given up their lives for the Faith in the persecution of Christians.

We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1), perfected in spirit (Heb 12:23, Rev 21:27).
This assembly (Heb 12:23), united to the family of God (1 Tim 3:15, Eph 2:20, 3:15) on earth as one body (Rom 12:5, 1 Cor 12:12f.), in their heavenly worship participate in the prayers of the saints (Rev 5:8, 8:3) and continue to beseech God (Rev 6:10). Since they have been faithful, in the joy of their master they receive an exalted service to the Body (Mt 25:21).
The inner logic of the doctrine focuses on the concept that we are fully incorporated into the Sonship of Christ through grace, participating in the life and love of the Trinity on earth when we embody supernatural charity (1 Cor 13:13, Gal 2:20, 2 Pt 1:4). God desires to share his life with his adopted children through grace, being glorified in them ( Jn 17:10, 2 Thes 1:10).

Denial of this logic is the result of man-made traditions and the human opinions of the so-called reformers who relied on a Nominalist world view that influenced bible interpretations.


Interestingly enough in Catholic Tradition the four uses of Scripture corresponded to the Quadriga, the four-fold method of exegesis for the Bible used in the medieval period: Literal (teaching), Analogical (reproof), Prophetic (correction), and Moral (training in righteousness).
The protestant reformers rejected this and tried to reduce biblical exegesis to the literal-historical method. In doing so, they were considered by their Catholic contemporaries as being unbiblical for ignoring 2Tim 3:16.