Just thinking about the ol' WMD situation

[rturner76]

I recently saw a Matt Damon film about the early days of the WMD search. I'm just wondering, was anybody ever held accountable for the lies they told while starting an illegal war against another sovereign nation?

They seemed to tie it in with 9/11 and did a double attack on Iraq and Afghanistan. While spending about 20 years in a losing war in Afghanistan and crippling the economy and safety of Iraq. Did our military even find one WMD? I don't think so and GW Bush should be in prison IMO for the thousands of Iraqi, Afganistan, and US military deaths that his administration was responsible for. Not to mention all of the injured and disabled US military personnel for being put in an untenable situation that they could not fight their way out of situations without being forced to kill local citizens and be exposed to not only IED and gunfire but chemical cleanup that gave my brother-in-law terminal cancer (may he rest in peace)

Why isn't anybody talking about this fiasco of human lives being snuffed out and still struggling to get things like clean water and power for their people?

 

[Divide]

I recently saw a Matt Damon film about the early days of the WMD search. I'm just wondering, was anybody ever held accountable for the lies they told while starting an illegal war against another sovereign nation?

They seemed to tie it in with 9/11 and did a double attack on Iraq and Afghanistan. While spending about 20 years in a losing war in Afghanistan and crippling the economy and safety of Iraq. Did our military even find one WMD? I don't think so and GW Bush should be in prison IMO for the thousands of Iraqi, Afganistan, and US military deaths that his administration was responsible for. Not to mention all of the injured and disabled US military personnel for being put in an untenable situation that they could not fight their way out of situations without being forced to kill local citizens and be exposed to not only IED and gunfire but chemical cleanup that gave my brother-in-law terminal cancer (may he rest in peace)

Why isn't anybody talking about this fiasco of human lives being snuffed out and still struggling to get things like clean water and power for their people?

It's been going on for a long time. No one was ever held responsible.

Remember Janet Reno after the Waco incident? "I take full responsibility..." She or anyone was never held responsible. They murdered them people, it was on video.

The problem is that they do these things, and then they tell us what is to be done about it. They might investigate themselves but well, no evidence found. Put the fox in charge of chicken security.

 

[HTacianas]

I recently saw a Matt Damon film about the early days of the WMD search. I'm just wondering, was anybody ever held accountable for the lies they told while starting an illegal war against another sovereign nation?

They seemed to tie it in with 9/11 and did a double attack on Iraq and Afghanistan. While spending about 20 years in a losing war in Afghanistan and crippling the economy and safety of Iraq. Did our military even find one WMD? I don't think so and GW Bush should be in prison IMO for the thousands of Iraqi, Afganistan, and US military deaths that his administration was responsible for. Not to mention all of the injured and disabled US military personnel for being put in an untenable situation that they could not fight their way out of situations without being forced to kill local citizens and be exposed to not only IED and gunfire but chemical cleanup that gave my brother-in-law terminal cancer (may he rest in peace)

Why isn't anybody talking about this fiasco of human lives being snuffed out and still struggling to get things like clean water and power for their people?

First off, the invasion of Iraq was not illegal. I never thought i was a good idea, but it wasn't illegal. You can read the Authorization for the Use of Force signed by Congress. WMDs were a big part of it but there was still a shopping list of other reasons. Saddam Hussein harbored one of the World Trade Center bombers. That was not as severe as the Taliban's refusal to give up the 9/11 conspirators but was one of the grievances the US had with Iraq. But after the 9/11 attacks it was time for more or less a house cleaning of terrorist strongholds. It was a 20 year war that seems like accomplished nothing but the number of terrorist attacks has dropped significantly.

 

[rturner76]

You can read the Authorization for the Use of Force signed by Congress

It still wasn't an official declaration of war was it?

Saddam Hussein harbored one of the World Trade Center bombers.

What about Saudi Arabia? Should we have Shocked and Awed them? Oh no, the Texas refineries that the Bushes own would likely loose too much money.

But after the 9/11 attacks it was time for more or less a house cleaning of terrorist strongholds.

There weren't many before or after. With our new brand of homegrown terrorists, should we be bombing places like Boston? No, we started a war and we lost like Russia. Iraqi "nation building" failed completely and both Iraq and Afganistan are now more lawless than ever, than you very much President Bush.

 

[JSRG]

I recently saw a Matt Damon film about the early days of the WMD search. I'm just wondering, was anybody ever held accountable for the lies they told while starting an illegal war against another sovereign nation?

They seemed to tie it in with 9/11 and did a double attack on Iraq and Afghanistan. While spending about 20 years in a losing war in Afghanistan and crippling the economy and safety of Iraq. Did our military even find one WMD? I don't think so and GW Bush should be in prison IMO for the thousands of Iraqi, Afganistan, and US military deaths that his administration was responsible for. Not to mention all of the injured and disabled US military personnel for being put in an untenable situation that they could not fight their way out of situations without being forced to kill local citizens and be exposed to not only IED and gunfire but chemical cleanup that gave my brother-in-law terminal cancer (may he rest in peace)

Why isn't anybody talking about this fiasco of human lives being snuffed out and still struggling to get things like clean water and power for their people?

Is there conclusive evidence that George Bush or others were deliberately lying? The mere fact of not finding WMDs does not mean they were lying--it might mean they were stupid for believing it was, or relied on faulty intelligence, but none of that is actually lying.

You also say you think GW Bush should be in prison. For what? What crime did he actually commit? Even if he was deliberately lying, that is not a crime outside of certain circumstances (such as slander, libel, perjury) that did not apply here.

First off, the invasion of Iraq was not illegal. I never thought i was a good idea, but it wasn't illegal. You can read the Authorization for the Use of Force signed by Congress. WMDs were a big part of it but there was still a shopping list of other reasons. Saddam Hussein harbored one of the World Trade Center bombers. That was not as severe as the Taliban's refusal to give up the 9/11 conspirators but was one of the grievances the US had with Iraq. But after the 9/11 attacks it was time for more or less a house cleaning of terrorist strongholds. It was a 20 year war that seems like accomplished nothing but the number of terrorist attacks has dropped significantly.

Let us also not forget the fact that Saddam was refusing to abide by the terms of the treaty he signed at the end of the Gulf War (done to basically avoid himself from being deposed) to allow in weapons inspectors. Granted, it seems he didn't actually have the weapons and was refusing to try to project strength and convince his neighbors he had them, but even if he didn't have them, he still wasn't abiding by the rules he basically signed to guarantee his regime continued.

 

[JustOneWay]

It's been going on for a long time. No one was ever held responsible.

Remember Janet Reno after the Waco incident? "I take full responsibility..." She or anyone was never held responsible. They murdered them people, it was on video.

The problem is that they do these things, and then they tell us what is to be done about it. They might investigate themselves but well, no evidence found. Put the fox in charge of chicken security.

History and facts disagree...​

Independent Waco Probe Clears Feds​

Independent Waco Probe Clears Feds

Investigation Concludes Government, Agents Did Nothing Wrong

www.cbsnews.com

Exactly one week after a jury said the government was not negligent in its handling of the siege on the Branch Davidian Waco compound, an independent special counsel cleared the federal government and its agents of any wrongdoing in the 51-day standoff.

• Government agents did not start the fire at Waco on April 19, 1993.
• Government agents did not shoot at the Branch Davidians during the last day of the standoff.
• The U.S. government did not improperly use the military during the siege.
• The government did not engage in a massive conspiracy and cover-up of the initial Justice Department investigation.

 

[Yttrium]

I recently saw a Matt Damon film about the early days of the WMD search. I'm just wondering, was anybody ever held accountable for the lies they told while starting an illegal war against another sovereign nation?

They didn't tell any lies about it. They honestly thought Iraq had WMDs, and understandably so. I saw a lot of the intelligence at the time, and it was pretty convincing. It turned out that the intelligence was mistaken, due to Hussein being insanely protective of his assets. Things like putting fertilizer in a guarded bunker and burying ordinary trucks in the sand to hide them.

Even so, that was no excuse to invade Iraq. He invaded because he believed Iraq had violated UN resolutions, but it wasn't his call to invade on behalf of the UN. The UN conducted searches in Iraq and found no WMDs, and so had no plans to attack Iraq. We had Iraq fully contained at the time, there was no need to invade.

But Bush was pushed to invade by the Neocons, who wanted an excuse to create a US-style democracy in the region that would hopefully cause a domino effect of democracy. A really dumb idea, really.

There wasn't much of an outcry against Bush around the world for the invasion, because hardly anyone liked Saddam Hussein. He was a deranged tyrant. Bush didn't face any legal repercussions. We certainly should remember just how many deaths Bush caused in his war, though, and remind future presidents to be more responsible.

 

[rturner76]

They didn't tell any lies about it. They honestly thought Iraq had WMDs,

I disagree. They completely fabricated documents.

It turned out that the intelligence was mistaken,

Mistaken or lies? I think it was totally lies.

Even so, that was no excuse to invade Iraq.

Right.

He invaded because he believed Iraq had violated UN resolutions, but it wasn't his call to invade on behalf of the UN.

He unilaterally invaded without the approval of the UN. He fell for lies or he lied himself and many people died and were hurt because of it.

Bush was pushed to invade by the Neocons

He should have been a man and done his own research instead of being lead by the nose by the sae people who approved the importation of tons of cocaine into the United States then used the money to finance South American terrorist organizations while providing the country of Iran with weapons.

There wasn't much of an outcry against Bush around the world for the invasion

I was [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed about it for sure. Most Conservatives supported it with Democrats not wanting to be accused of not defending the country.

We certainly should remember just how many deaths Bush caused in his war, though

Yes, I fully agree. He caused the deaths and financial collapse in a country we had no business entering. Now he just relaxes with his riches with absolutely no consequences for his actions.

 

[Yttrium]

I disagree. They completely fabricated documents.

Your disagreement is duly noted.

 

[rturner76]

They didn't tell any lies about it. They honestly thought Iraq had WMDs,

Yes they did and no they didn't. It seems that you bought into it like every other Neo-Con. The government and the p\President lied, the circumvented the UN and they all got away with it while lining their pockets with billions of dollars. God Bless America!

 

[Yttrium]

Yes they did and no they didn't. It seems that you bought into it like every other Neo-Con.

I didn't buy into anything. I was working in military intelligence shortly before the war.

 

[Pommer]

I didn't buy into anything. I was working in military intelligence shortly before the war.

The centrifugal tubes were “real”?

 

[Yttrium]

The centrifugal tubes were “real”?

?

You mean the ones in Iran?

 

[rturner76]

I didn't buy into anything. I was working in military intelligence shortly before the war.

So did the lies pass across your desk?

 

[Pommer]

?

You mean the ones in Iran?

The ones that Colin Powell used at the UN.

 

[Yttrium]

The ones that Colin Powell used at the UN.

Oh, I never saw any intelligence briefs on those. Knowing Hussein, he was probably just using them for conventional weapons or something.

 

[Pommer]

Oh, I never saw any intelligence briefs on those. Knowing Hussein, he was probably just using them for conventional weapons or something.

That thing that you apparently weren’t aware of until just recently, was a major linchpin in our “decision” to launch an unprovoked invasion of another nation.

 

[Yttrium]

That thing that you apparently weren’t aware of until just recently, was a major linchpin in our “decision” to launch an unprovoked invasion of another nation.

'Kay. I probably didn't pay attention to it because it's not something I saw in the intelligence briefs. I do remember Colin Powell talking about the "chemical weapons" bunker (which was actually full of fertilizer) and other things I saw in his speech to the UN. So do you think they were lying about the cylinders? Since I missed that one, I can't vouch for it.

 

[wing2000]

I recently saw a Matt Damon film about the early days of the WMD search. I'm just wondering, was anybody ever held accountable for the lies they told while starting an illegal war against another sovereign nation?

No.

Is there conclusive evidence that George Bush or others were deliberately lying? The mere fact of not finding WMDs does not mean they were lying--it might mean they were stupid for believing it was, or relied on faulty intelligence, but none of that is actually lying.

You also say you think GW Bush should be in prison. For what? What crime did he actually commit? Even if he was deliberately lying, that is not a crime outside of certain circumstances (such as slander, libel, perjury) that did not apply here.

IMO Bush naively thought he could bring democracy and security to Iraq . Others in his administration knew better. Colin Powell was the most vocal opponent of the invasion and even he came on board once CIA Director Tennent assured him the WMD intelligence was solid. It wasn't.

The intelligence was unreliable and single-sourced, shaped by Donald Rumsfeld with the full support of VP Dick Cheney. Rumsfield deputy - Paul Wolfowitz carved out an intel office within the Pentagon to shape the intelligence to meet the policy of goals of the Neo-Conservatives.


"The Office of Special Plans (OSP), which existed from September 2002 to June 2003, was a Pentagon unit created by Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith, and headed by Feith, as charged by then–United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to supply senior George W. Bush administration officials with raw intelligence (unvetted by intelligence analysts, see Stovepiping) pertaining to Iraq.[1] A similar unit, called the Iranian Directorate, was created several years later, in 2006, to deal with intelligence on Iran.[2]"

Even so, that was no excuse to invade Iraq. He invaded because he believed Iraq had violated UN resolutions, but it wasn't his call to invade on behalf of the UN. The UN conducted searches in Iraq and found no WMDs, and so had no plans to attack Iraq. We had Iraq fully contained at the time, there was no need to invade.

Agreed. Iraq was contained and was no threat to US interest.