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Just or Merciful

Moral Orel

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Why are you limiting the definition in that way? I'm a little puzzled.
Because God doesn't need to use punishment for any of the other goals you listed. And because what is deserved is integral to justice.
 
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Moral Orel

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Both. Because mercy, by definition, is not just. . .but mercy is not injustice either.
Mercy is also undeserved (by definition).
Therefore, mercy and justice are compatible.
If mercy is not just then mercy and justice are not compatible.
 
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Moral Orel

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Shouldn't your [objectively stated] concluding question fit the form of your [subjective] premises?
How does it not?
And there you have it. The "justice" that is expressed in the Bible isn't exactly that which floats around and conceptually morphs within today's Post-Enlightenment/Post-Revolutionary Age, is it?
These definitions are based on the Bible. We all deserve death because of sin and only by grace does God spare some.
So, who's to say (you say/I say?) that God's Justice (and Judgement) isn't fully compatible with the Mercy and Grace that He extends to humanity?
So then your answer is that you have no idea whether God practices justice or practices mercy.
 
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Moral Orel

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Which does God practise? Both. No one claims that God is always one or the other.
If practicing justice is good, then not practicing justice is bad. If practicing mercy is good, then not practicing mercy is bad. Are these things not good or bad at all?
 
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Carl Emerson

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If mercy is not just then mercy and justice are not compatible.

The problem is you have disconnected the Justice/Mercy from the object of God's intent - some get justice - some get mercy. All God's actions are Just - no one deserves salvation - Jesus paid the price for those who do.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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How does it not?
Seriously? C'mon Nick! C'mon, bud!

Both of your premises are situated precisely within subjective terms. You're concluding question in the OP likewise should reflect the same subjectivity level as your premises. But as it stands now, it doesn't, and it seems like you're asking an objective question ...

These definitions are based on the Bible. We all deserve death because of sin and only by grace does God spare some.
"Based"? I don't think so. You'll have to delineate the conceptual referent(s) which inform your denotations better than you have in your OP in order to say you've accurately represented the biblical sense of either "justice" or "mercy."

So then your answer is that you have no idea whether God practices justice or practices mercy.
There's nothing for me to answer until you've recognized what it is that you think you've asked. It's that simple. Let's not pretend here like you don't know what's going on. Let's also not pretend here like I don't know what's going on. I know you're far too intelligent and practiced in systems (and their inherent logic) to not know.
 
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Paulomycin

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Followup RE:
Both. Because mercy, by definition, is not just. . .but mercy is not injustice either.
Mercy is also undeserved (by definition).
Therefore, mercy and justice are compatible.

Let's consider some possible (purely hypothetical) objections that pretty much anyone could make:

Q: What-if someone claims, "If mercy is not just, then mercy and justice are not compatible. Correct?"

A: It's obvious here that the question is simply confusing non-justice with injustice. "Injustice" is a violation of justice. Not all forms of non-justice equal an injustice. Mercy is not justice, but it is not a violation of justice. It's simply mercy, as opposed to justice.
 
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Moral Orel

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Seriously? C'mon Nick! C'mon, bud!

Both of your premises are situated precisely within subjective terms. You're concluding question in the OP likewise should reflect the same subjectivity level as your premises. But as it stands now, it doesn't, and it seems like you're asking an objective question ...
All word definitions are necessarily subjective. Are you saying no objective questions can be asked because the terms are subjective?

"Based"? I don't think so. You'll have to delineate the conceptual referent(s) which inform your denotations better than you have in your OP in order to say you've accurately represented the biblical sense of either "justice" or "mercy."
Take a look at this statement again:
"We all deserve death because of sin and only by grace does God spare some"
In what way is this not based on the Bible?

There's nothing for me to answer until you've recognized what it is that you think you've asked. It's that simple. Let's not pretend here like you don't know what's going on. Let's also not pretend here like I don't know what's going on. I know you're far too intelligent and practiced in systems (and their inherent logic) to not know.
I think what I've asked is extremely straightforward. You might know what's going on, but let's be honest, historically you've been not so great at speculating on my agenda. Pretty much everyone is bad at guessing my agenda (Christians and atheists alike) though, so that isn't a knock on you personally. I'm an odd duck.
 
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Moral Orel

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Let's consider some possible (purely hypothetical) objections that pretty much anyone could make:

Q: What-if someone claims, "If mercy is not just, then mercy and justice are not compatible. Correct?"

A: It's obvious here that the question is simply confusing non-justice with injustice. "Injustice" is a violation of justice. Not all forms of non-justice equal an injustice. Mercy is not justice, but it is not a violation of justice. It's simply mercy, as opposed to justice.
I would say that a person not receiving a punishment they deserve is injustice. How am I wrong?
 
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Moral Orel

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The problem is you have disconnected the Justice/Mercy from the object of God's intent - some get justice - some get mercy. All God's actions are Just - no one deserves salvation - Jesus paid the price for those who do.
How is it just to not give some folks justice?
 
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Moral Orel

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When someone is making up their own rules, of course they're never wrong. :blush:
All word definitions are subjective. We have to start somewhere. Why do you disagree with what I stated injustice is?
 
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Paulomycin

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Some people (honestly anyone, really) might believe that all word definitions are subjective. But they tend to behave inconsistently say, when someone insults them, when they receive a major diagnosis from an MD, or if someone straight-up lies to them.

It is this sort of inconsistent behavior that tends to contradict the belief that all word definitions are subjective. This contradiction becomes progressively clearer the more one interacts with such individuals. If someone insists on making up their own terms on the fly, then that individual simply cannot be trusted, and they're only tearing down their own reputation around themselves. See: Equivocation, doublespeak, and weasel-words.
 
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cloudyday2

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Because God doesn't need to use punishment for any of the other goals you listed. And because what is deserved is integral to justice.
I was just skimming the wikipedia page on "justice" ( Justice ), and there are lots of others ways of thinking about it. What you're describing is probably "retributive justice", and what I'm describing is probably "utilitarian justice".

It seems entirely just for God to forgive those who want to become obedient to God's social system (i.e. Christians), because the goal is a new society that is more just than the current society. Justice is about promoting a more just society. The judge can achieve that goal using any method that works.
 
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Moral Orel

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Some people (honestly anyone, really) might believe that all word definitions are subjective. But they tend to behave inconsistently say, when someone insults them, when they receive a major diagnosis from an MD, or if someone straight-up lies to them.

It is this sort of inconsistent behavior that tends to contradict the belief that all word definitions are subjective. This contradiction becomes progressively clearer the more one interacts with such individuals. If someone insists on making up their own terms on the fly, then that individual simply cannot be trusted, and they're only tearing down their own reputation around themselves. See: Equivocation, doublespeak, and weasel-words.
Okay. Why do you disagree with what I stated injustice is?
 
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Moral Orel

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I was just skimming the wikipedia page on "justice" ( Justice ), and there are lots of others ways of thinking about it. What you're describing is probably "retributive justice", and what I'm describing is probably "utilitarian justice".
Yep, retributive justice is the topic. Note that I'm not personally advocating for retributive justice, though. The thing is with death there isn't any major group of Christians talking about any kind of utilitarian justice, only retributive justice. I'm sure there are some, but I'm addressing the bulk of Christians.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I thought humans deserved death because of sin. Is that not a basic Christian theme?

Sure is... but He has desired to have fellowship eternally with a family of humans (the church) for whom He sent Jesus to die for.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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Does God practice justice, or does God practice mercy?

I would say that practicing justice is to ensure that people get punishments they deserve.

And I would say that practicing mercy is to spare people from punishments they deserve.

Clearly, it isn't possible to do both, so which does God practice?

God is judgement itself, just like he is goodness itself. Problem solved *dusts off hands*.
 
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Moral Orel

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Sure is... but He has desired to have fellowship eternally with a family of humans (the church) for whom He sent Jesus to die for.
Okay... So humans deserve death because of sin, but you also said that no one deserves anything.
 
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