Just for final clarification yes, we evolved from monkeys.

[mmksparbud]

If I have faith that my car will start even though there's no gas in it...what happens?

Well, the bible doesn't mention gas, so it is spiritually safe to say it will not start.----however---there have been people who prayed for help as they were out of gas and there was a blizzard and the car did start up just long enough for them to get to a part of the highway were there was more traffic and they were able to get help. This was in a horrible blizzard in No. Dakota years ago. But I know you will not believe in stuff like this. Nor when my cousin lost her brakes on a hill, going down, and there was nothing she could do but pray, the car just slowly stopped on its own. Or when my friend I've known since I was 14 was out horseback riding (she was on a horse before she could walk) the horse bolted, she went backwards, her feet went up over her head, they were past the point she could straighten them out herself all she could do was pray, she felt hands on her back push her forwards and she straightened up and got control of the horse. She had friends with her who saw it and they couldn't believe it when she flipped back over, it's not possible to do on a running horse when your feet are over your head. Her best friends daughter had died just a few months earlier from exactly the same kind of accident. Why she was saved and not her friend is not known, she had something more to do for God we guess. Lots of stuff like that you won't believe.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

This is basically admitting you aren't willing to change your mind based on the available evidence. This is being intellectually dishonest and willful ignorance. You are choosing magical thinking over verifiable evidence.

You can't convince them otherwise....They'd rather believe jailbird Ken Hovind and the "creation scientists" (talk about an oxymoron there) than the real science, the real evidence. They just don't understand that the bible is not a science textbook, it's a collection of myths, history (not written in the same manner as our modern day history books), poetry, allegory and other literary genres. It's not a science text, it's not a history text...however, somehow or another believing in the "infallibility of scripture" means that you take it at face value and not the way it's meant to be taken...
And...the VERY thin "scholarship" put forward by biblical "literalists" just perpetuates the utter disaster.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Well, the bible doesn't mention gas, so it is spiritually safe to say it will not start.----however---there have been people who prayed for help as they were out of gas and there was a blizzard and the car did start up just long enough for them to get to a part of the highway were there was more traffic and they were able to get help. This was in a horrible blizzard in No. Dakota years ago. But I know you will not believe in stuff like this. Nor when my cousin lost her brakes on a hill, going down, and there was nothing she could do but pray, the car just slowly stopped on its own. Or when my friend I've known since I was 14 was out horseback riding (she was on a horse before she could walk) the horse bolted, she went backwards, her feet went up over her head, they were past the point she could straighten them out herself all she could do was pray, she felt hands on her back push her forwards and she straightened up and got control of the horse. She had friends with her who saw it and they couldn't believe it when she flipped back over, it's not possible to do on a running horse when your feet are over your head. Her best friends daughter had died just a few months earlier from exactly the same kind of accident. Why she was saved and not her friend is not known, she had something more to do for God we guess. Lots of stuff like that you won't believe.

I love these anecdotes...no witnesses...nothing...if it makes you feel good, then go for it...

But...God didn't cure my friend's little boy and he died a horrible death from cancer before he was three...

I REALLY have a big problem with this baloney..."God healed....." I've never seen God regrow a leg or an arm or eyes or other body parts...so Ummm...no....

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

You can't convince them otherwise....They'd rather believe jailbird Ken Hovind and the "creation scientists" (talk about an oxymoron there) than the real science, the real evidence.

Their entire belief system depends on the bible being read as 100% literal. I know its pointless to go back and forth with them but maybe a lurker of this board will learn something.

 

[mmksparbud]

Faith is believing things without evidence. So what you're saying about me doesn't even make sense. I follow the evidence to its logical conclusion.

I see what you mean, however, you place your faith in science even before there is evidence, I mean, you look to it for answers to whatever may come up. You have a question, you will look to see what the lat4st scientific findings are. You already have decided that is what the truth will be.

What do you mean toss out anything that doesn't add up? You don't seem to understand how science works. If experiment disagrees with hypothesis, you throw the hypothesis out because it is wrong. You're starting at a conclusion and working backwards....this is pseudoscience. It's why Intelligent Design loses in court every single time because it is unscientific nonsense.

By that I mean, if you have to decide between the bible says this or science says this--you will choose science---and throw out anything that doesn't agree. Yes, I understand you throw out things that don't agree with the hypothesis. You see, our hypothesis is--God is real, the bible is truth---it is not a scientific journal, not meant to be, But when it states that God did something, we believe He did it.

This is basically admitting you aren't willing to change your mind based on the available evidence. This is being intellectually dishonest and willful ignorance. You are choosing magical thinking over verifiable evidence.

It may be willful ignorance but definitely not intellectually dishonest. We are being intellectually honest in sticking to our hypothesis that God is real and His word is real, therefore, Exodus did happen and one day----science will discover it. You call it magic, we call it the reality of God's power.

Is believing things without evidence a virtue? Yes or no.

LOL!! I refuse to answer that yes or no! It totally depends on what your faith is in. If it is in God, then yes. If it is in something or someone human, no.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Ya know....some folks go past "Christianity" and go straight to "biblolatry"...

 

[mmksparbud]

Their entire belief system depends on the bible being read as 100% literal. I know its pointless to go back and forth with them but maybe a lurker of this board will learn something.

That's utterly ridiculous---many massages are not literal, they are poetry, they are parables, they ae prophecies for a later time, they are meant as allegories, It all depends on context. When it says
Son_7:7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.

That is definitely not literal!

 

[mmksparbud]

Ya know....some folks go past "Christianity" and go straight to "biblolatry"...

Absolutely not, but it is the word of God and revered as such--it does not save, only Jesus saves, but His words are there and point to Jesus.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

That's utterly ridiculous---many massages are not literal, they are poetry, they are parables, they ae prophecies for a later time, they are meant as allegories, It all depends on context. When it says
Son_7:7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.

That is definitely not literal!

And Genesis 1 & 2 is NOT a science lesson!!! It's a myth...a creation MYTH...a way for ancient men to explain how they got on the planet...every primitive culture has one...does not mean the Genesis account is true to the exclusion of all other creation myths.

But...this "heathen" has actually studied ancient cultures' creation myths...

 

[mmksparbud]

I love these anecdotes...no witnesses...nothing...if it makes you feel good, then go for it...

But...God didn't cure my friend's little boy and he died a horrible death from cancer before he was three...

I REALLY have a big problem with this baloney..."God healed....." I've never seen God regrow a leg or an arm or eyes or other body parts...so Ummm...no....

There were witnesses in all of the above. And prayers did not save my 1st husband from cancer, nor my stepsons 32 year old wife from cancer, nor a beloved friend, nor my mother, nor my sister-in law, nor my brother, nor my stepmother. We all die. We do not know when, nor why at a particular time. Why did my friend die at 14, a sweet, gentle, kinder kid never lived, but my evil father not till he was 81? I do intend on asking Him one day. And no, I've never seen body parts regrow either. And I do not believe in these phony TV faith healers, either. One claimed to heal a kid blind from birth, but the idiot then asks the kid to tell him what color that woman was wearing, and what color that was or that and the kid names them all accurately---right---except a person blind from birth can not tell you the color of anything--they have never seen them. They can say the grass is green or the sky is blue because they've been told that, but they have never seen the color and can not point it out in anything else. And they certainly don't know what turquoise is. Yes, I do believe in healing, but that wasn't real, and we are not to believe every spirit, but to test them for truth----wise as serpents and harmless as doves.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

I see what you mean, however, you place your faith in science even before there is evidence, I mean, you look to it for answers to whatever may come up

Ummm, no. You are not a mind reader. If there is no evidence for a hypothesis or something hasn't been demonstrated to be accurate with testing, my answer will be "I don't know".

By that I mean, if you have to decide between the bible says this or science says this--you will choose science---and throw out anything that doesn't agree

Science is supported by evidence. You seem to do the exact opposite. If the evidence disagrees with your beliefs, the evidence must be wrong. This is intellectual dishonesty. Why choose magical thinking over verifiable evidence?

You see, our hypothesis is--God is real, the bible is truth---it is not a scientific journal, not meant to be

What is the test you run to test your hypothesis? What is the falsifiable test you run to make sure you aren't wrong? What results should we see from a test that would demonstrate that you are wrong?

But when it states that God did something, we believe He did it.

Which is circular reasoning. If your argument can be used for any religion, do you think you have a viable way of obtaining a truth? Example: When it states Krishna did something, we believe he did it. When it states that Muhammad did something, we believe he did it. Do those arguments convince you of those religions? If not, why does that argument hold any weight for your religion?

It may be willful ignorance but definitely not intellectually dishonest. We are being intellectually honest in sticking to our hypothesis that God is real and His word is real

When you disregard evidence that demonstrates your literal interpretation of Genesis is false, that is intellectual dishonesty.

therefore, Exodus did happen and one day----science will discover it

Archaeology abandoned studying the Exodus a long time ago so good luck with that. It didn't happen.

LOL!! I refuse to answer that yes or no! It totally depends on what your faith is in. If it is in God, then yes. If it is in something or someone human, no.

How is faith valuable when it comes to God but utterly useless when it comes to everything else in your life? You can't really have it both ways. Faith is either a reliable way to find truth or it is not. Which is it?

That's utterly ridiculous---many massages are not literal, they are poetry, they are parables, they ae prophecies for a later time, they are meant as allegories, It all depends on context. When it says
Son_7:7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.

That is definitely not literal!

But talking snakes is supposed to be literal? LOL

 

[mmksparbud]

And Genesis 1 & 2 is NOT a science lesson!!! It's a myth...a creation MYTH...a way for ancient men to explain how they got on the planet...every primitive culture has one...does not mean the Genesis account is true to the exclusion of all other creation myths.

But...this "heathen" has actually studied ancient cultures' creation myths...

Why do you call yourself heathen when it says you are Christian? Nobody says it is a science textbook. Gen. 1 and 2 just says that God created this world in 6 days, and what was created on each of those days, nothing much more than that.
And in Exodus 20---there is a commandment, written by the hand of God that says--
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And He wrote it twice as the first set was broken. And no -- yom is not an eon--in context it is a day. An evening and a morning is a day.
And there are many cultures with a creation myth--which only make sense--cause they got them from the morphing of the actual creation story with their believes in other gods.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Why do you call yourself heathen when it says you are Christian? Nobody says it is a science textbook. Gen. 1 and 2 just says that God created this world in 6 days, and what was created on each of those days, nothing much more than that.
And in Exodus 20---there is a commandment, written by the hand of God that says--
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And He wrote it twice as the first set was broken. And no -- yom is not an eon--in context it is a day. An evening and a morning is a day.
And there are many cultures with a creation myth--which only make sense--cause they got them from the morphing of the actual creation story with their believes in other gods.

Oh good grief...there are creation myths that PREDATE the writing of the Genesis account.
The bible is not a science textbook. The bible is not factual when it comes to creation. The Epic of Gilgamesh pretty much says the same thing and it predates the bible.
Evolution is pretty much proven whether you like it or not.

And according to you I'm a "heathen" because I'm not a fundamentalist bible-worshipping narrow-minded, science-hating anti-intellectual like many around here.

 

[mmksparbud]

Science is supported by evidence. You seem to do the exact opposite. If the evidence disagrees with your beliefs, the evidence must be wrong. This is intellectual dishonesty. Why choose magical thinking over verifiable evidence?

No, it would be intellectual dishonesty to say I believe in God, but not in His word. Without His word there is no defining Christianity--there is no Christianity. Evidence is evidence. It is neither right nor wrong. However, not everything about a subject is known. At first there was only blood. Then, there are classifications of it, then there was other things that have been learned, DNA from it. And now, even touch DNA. A person just touching an object may leave enough DNA behind. They couldn't do that 2000 years ago. It's not that science is wrong, it's that they haven't found out everything yet. The instruments to find out have not been developed yet---like X-ray machines, and now scanners that they can use for studying old burned out scrolls, not only humans, without even touching them. That they can get those burned scrolls and actually unfold them and read the writing on them without ever touching them is mind boggling.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

No, it would be intellectual dishonesty to say I believe in God, but not in His word. Without His word there is no defining Christianity--there is no Christianity.

When the bible is looked at properly...with the view to the literary genres and devices used, it maintains its meaning as a book of faith. When one properly understands this, then faith in God's word becomes easy. So does accepting the proper role that science plays in discovering the origins of the planet we live on...and other planets, the solar system, the galaxies and the universe. Knowing the science behind it doesn't make it any less awe-inspiring. In reality, it makes it even MORE awe-inspiring...to think that God created this universe, that he set the planets into motion, that this is how it all ended up....it's amazing...Discounting evolution and the big bang in many ways, denigrates God...it takes away from his unparalleled power to set things into motion, from a tiny singularity to what we see and what we can't see.

So...I would say that your supposition of "intellectual dishonesty" is incorrect. Utterly off base. The utter amazement at how we got to where we are from millions of years of change is amazing. ONE little change in a string of DNA set evolution on its way...and over time, from one celled organisms to fish, to the big dinos to us...from some unknown ancestor to my goofy felines...it's mind-blowing and awe inspiring. Does it take away from my faith? Not one bit...if anything, it adds to it.

 

[mmksparbud]

Oh good grief...there are creation myths that PREDATE the writing of the Genesis account.
The bible is not a science textbook. The bible is not factual when it comes to creation. The Epic of Gilgamesh pretty much says the same thing and it predates the bible.
Evolution is pretty much proven whether you like it or not.

And according to you I'm a "heathen" because I'm not a fundamentalist bible-worshipping narrow-minded, science-hating anti-intellectual like many around here.

Yes, of course there are. But see, our creation "myth" happened first. Not that it was written about first.
Geeze, tha't a lot of negatives in that sentence and not a very accurate one either. I, for one, and many others like me, do not hate science, do not worship the bible-never even occurred to us, are not narrow minded (well, certainly not by our own standards!) and definitely not anti-intellectual. We we'ren't always Christians, I was wild as the best of them for over 25 years (I just was never stupid enough to do drugs) I, for one, was tested at a very high IQ-they would not give us our numbers, they just said among the top 3--I didn't care, the numbers meant nothing to me anyway. I was reading Freud at 12, and I made up stories on "What I did for summer vacation" in school because we were poor and went nowhere and it was boring and embarrassing to write --- I read 25 books--Not that I was the smartest kid around--- in high school, there was a 4th grader that would come in and talked to our senior class science teacher and would leave the teacher wondering what he had been talking about--little Japanese kid. He made our teacher feel stupid. There are many highly intelligent Christians. I no longer am! Fibro has messed with my brain something aweful.
And it's not that I will not change--I hated Marijuana all my life, blamed it for my brothers drug use. Took me years to realize he would have died the way he did if there had been no marijuana. I did a lot of resesrch--and I went on it for over 1 1/2 years for medical purposes--pain control. I've been in pain 24/7 for over 26 years. That really helped me the most. And I am not opposed to transgenders either and have had many a battle with those who are. As far as I'm concerned it is a birth defect that can be corrected.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Yes, of course there are. But see, our creation "myth" happened first. Not that it was written about first.

Not according to the best scientific evidence

I, for one, and many others like me, do not hate science, do not worship the bible-never even occurred to us, are not narrow minded (well, certainly not by our own standards!) and definitely not anti-intellectual.

Could have fooled me reading here

I, for one, was tested at a very high IQ-they would not give us our numbers, they just said among the top 3--I didn't care, the numbers meant nothing to me anyway. I was reading Freud at 12, and I made up stories on "What I did for summer vacation" in school because we were poor and went nowhere and it was boring and embarrassing to write --- I read 25 books--

IQ =/= intellect. My IQ isn't that high...it's high but not Einstein high...however, I've taken the time and effort to educate myself, formally and informally.

My problem is the anti-science bias when it comes to misunderstanding the creation myths found in multiple cultures across pre-history. The Genesis account is not a fact, is not meant to be a fact, was never really understood to be a scientific fact. First...the scientific disciplines of paleontology, archeology, physics, etc. were not known then. Second, you are dealing with a nomadic band of people who are barely advanced enough to be called bronze age hunter-gatherers who haven't had the time to think about much...

Now...go read the Epic of Gilgamesh (which pre-dates the Genesis account), read other creation myths. Educate yourself beyond your narrow focus. By arguing against highly educated experts, you, who argue in favor of "Creation Science" look like a bunch of country bumpkins who didn't get past 2nd grade and just blindly follow what your pastor told you. This is why I can't take any of you seriously...you claim that if one doesn't "believe" in a literal creation, then you're a heathen, you're not really a christian, you dispute the word of god...better yet, just read back at the accusations you have leveled at me to find out what those of us who do not hold your position (and see it as a continuation of the dumbing down of our society) are thought of by those who think they've got the inside track on that freeway to paradise.

 

[mmksparbud]

When the bible is looked at properly...with the view to the literary genres and devices used, it maintains its meaning as a book of faith. When one properly understands this, then faith in God's word becomes easy. So does accepting the proper role that science plays in discovering the origins of the planet we live on...and other planets, the solar system, the galaxies and the universe. Knowing the science behind it doesn't make it any less awe-inspiring. In reality, it makes it even MORE awe-inspiring...to think that God created this universe, that he set the planets into motion, that this is how it all ended up....it's amazing...Discounting evolution and the big bang in many ways, denigrates God...it takes away from his unparalleled power to set things into motion, from a tiny singularity to what we see and what we can't see.

So...I would say that your supposition of "intellectual dishonesty" is incorrect. Utterly off base. The utter amazement at how we got to where we are from millions of years of change is amazing. ONE little change in a string of DNA set evolution on its way...and over time, from one celled organisms to fish, to the big dinos to us...from some unknown ancestor to my goofy felines...it's mind-blowing and awe inspiring. Does it take away from my faith? Not one bit...if anything, it adds to it.

You can look at it that way I suppose. But to me---that God created this world in 6 days is a far more awesome thing than it took Him millions of years. That we are created in His image is more awesome than I came from a gorilla---though I do have a couple relatives I sometimes wonder about.
I believe He created this galaxy in 6 days. It doesn't use that word. And it states that when God began His creation week the earth was void and without form and that He parted the waters. So, that there was water here, and rocks and earth already for perhaps billions of years before He (as the original says "fattened") the earth is no big deal. Personally, and it does not state this, I believe He set some sort of "core" here---an asteroid of some sort first, then came back when He felt it was the right time and filled it up. It states He spoke and it was done. There is power in that voice---the power to raise the dead. The power to bring forth this world in 6 days. When He called "Lazarus, come forth." He called him by name. If He'd of said "Come forth" every grave would have opened. The power of sound, they are just discovering it--sound waves, very interesting.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

But to me---that God created this world in 6 days is a far more awesome thing than it took Him millions of years.

Hanging on to that belief is part of what turns people against Christianity.

That we are created in His image is more awesome than I came from a gorilla-

No...chimpanzees...and if God has an incorporeal body, how are we created in His image. The part about His image is having the "breath of life" in us...as in man is a living soul. It has nothing to do with the meatsack that surrounds our soul/spirit. Another huge miss in understanding Genesis.

And it states that when God began His creation week the earth was void and without form and that He parted the waters. So, that there was water here, and rocks and earth already for perhaps billions of years before He (as the original says "fattened") the earth is no big deal. Personally, and it does not state this, I believe He set some sort of "core" here---an asteroid of some sort first, then came back when He felt it was the right time and filled it up. It states He spoke and it was done. There is power in that voice---the power to raise the dead. The power to bring forth this world in 6 days.

This makes utterly no sense if you have studied cosmology. It sounds more like a child trying to explain something and stringing random things together rather than any coherent, sensical cosmology. There's been some excellent work done lately and some really fascinating things have been written (and the documentaries from the Science Channel, Smithsonian and other outlets are fantastic).

So...one last time...the insistence on the literal creation account makes Christians sound anti-intellectual, anti-science and backwards as heck...as a result, most reasonably intelligent folks stay as far away from that as possible. There's absolutely no way to "check my brain at the door" of a church or a religion. So...as long as certain groups of Christians insist on hanging on to this, and looking utterly ridiculous when they attempt to debate anyone with any real knowledge of geology, evolutionary biology, paleontology, cosmology...well...they will never, ever be taken seriously. There's absolutely no way I can take any of the "arguments" set forth by the creationists seriously. All they repeatedly show is their ignorance.

 

[mmksparbud]

Now...go read the Epic of Gilgamesh (which pre-dates the Genesis account), read other creation myths. Educate yourself beyond your narrow focus.

Good grief---what makes you think I have not read it? Or the Quran, Confucius, or Thripitaka, The Vedas - The Bhagvadgita - The Ramayana---What on earth makes you think your focus is wider than anyone else's? However, I've never read any of them in their native language---not even the bible (just a few parts here and there through the Mechanical Translation)

you claim that if one doesn't "believe" in a literal creation, then you're a heathen, you're not really a christian, you dispute the word of god...better yet, just read back at the accusations you have leveled at me to find out what those of us who do not hold your position (and see it as a continuation of the dumbing down of our society) are thought of by those who think they've got the inside track on that freeway to paradise.

My, my--you sound angry. I did not call you heathen, You called yourself that. I may not understand the new "evolutionist Christian" view for in my youth there was never any such thing--you were either a creationist or an evolutionist---the morphing of the 2 is a recent thing that I discovered on this site. I am obviously a little behind the times. Perhaps, just to save time, you might want to just tell me what accusations I leveled at you as it seems you've been leveling many at me. But I do like the way you phrase things---"the inside track on that freeway to paradise"----quite poetic.