Just for final clarification yes, we evolved from monkeys.

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Thermodynamics: "the branch of physical science that deals with the relations between
heat and other forms of energy (such as mechanical, electrical, or chemical energy),
and, by extension, of the relationships between all forms of energy."

How many types of energy are we talking about when we say biological systems?
Several.

It does not apply to a biological system since a biological system is a CLOSED system. The Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to an OPEN system.

 

[pat34lee]

... you have got to be having a laugh.
So the Chicxulub Crater and the resulting KT Boundary, wherein all of the dinosaur and Cretaceous era life died out suddenly is... what? Nothing?

Pixie dust. Just like the oort cloud and dark matter and dark energy.
We killed the dinosaurs. Like many other large carnivores.

 

[pat34lee]

And yet is not against the rules to say that a WEBSITE is lying.

You didn't say 'A'. You said 'EVERY', which means
all YEC's are liars.

 

[pat34lee]

Fruit flies =/= all of life.
Fail.

If they can't get past first using fruit flies, they will never get
proof of evolution.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Everything is assumed in evolution. You assume the bones on whales are vestigial hip bones

LOL! You can literally look at the skeleton of a whale and see them!

 

[pat34lee]

It does not apply to a biological system since a biological system is a CLOSED system. The Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to an OPEN system.

Bad argument. Adding energy randomly only makes things worse.
There is no way to get Hulk or the F4 by adding radiation. That only
gives cancer, health problems, sterility and death.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Random genetic mutations do not lead anywhere except to sterility and death.

Demonstrably false. Populations in Tibet have a genetic mutation that allows them to live in higher atmospheres. There are populations with sickle cell mutation that protects them from malaria. These are just a couple examples in humans.

1. The same thing that keeps your computer from sentience. You must program
anything and everything that a computer does. Anything outside programming
gives unpredictable responses, up to the BSOD.

A computer is not a living system. Fail, unless you can provide a test to demonstrate this and a falsifiable test that could potentially prove you wrong. Can you provide these things?

2. Ever hear of an egg tooth? Necessary to break out of a healthy shell.

Epic fail. That is not what I am talking about. They literally have the DNA to grow actual teeth. But they don't have teeth....I award you 0 points and you must retake biology next semester.

3. Necessary for reproduction. DNA only demonstrates similarity, not necessarily
kindred.

So I can't take a DNA test to demonstrate who my parents, siblings and grandparents are? You have no clue what you're talking about, Pat.

4. degeneration. We used to be larger and grow older.

Average lifespan thousands of years ago was about 25. You fail again.

5. A kind is more like species. Most bears come from one kind. Equines are a kind.
Mammals and vertebrates contain many kinds.

Define species. Does it match that of your definition of a kind? A house cat and a lion cannot interbreed but aren't they the same "kind"? They're both cats.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Bad argument. Adding energy randomly only makes things worse.
There is no way to get Hulk or the F4 by adding radiation. That only
gives cancer, health problems, sterility and death.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SteveB28]

Hello Steve.

You don't seriously believe that a die roll, cannot be predicted given the variables.

Correct. Because you cannot measure all the variables perfectly.

Consider just one.....the angle from the horizontal that a particular face of the die is released. Was it 26 degrees? Or 26.1? Or 26.01? Or 26.001? And so on...... An infinitessimally small difference in that angle can change the outcome. The margin of error in the measurement has infinite possibilities.

And so it is with all of the variables......

Hence, randomness.......all that we can say is that each face of the die has an equal chance of being displayed, given that randomness.

And so it is with the location of each of those ancient viral insertions. And yet, with 99.99% accuracy, we find across hundreds of thousands of those insertions an identical insertion point in each of the genomes of chimpanzees and humans!

 

[SteveB28]

I asked that but I keep getting the evolution happens in populations not individuals, thing---but for crying out loud--it has to happen in individuals before it can happen in a population. And then they say one species can not turn into another yet they say a bear was actually a fish and they say we all began as fish!!

Do you folk not understand how a branching pattern works?

Or are you simply being wilfully ignorant, in order to protect your preconceived beliefs?


.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Steve.

Thanks for your reply.

you cannot measure all the variables perfectly.

The concept of perfection has no application in space time. Science deals with
space time, not an imaginary domain containing perfection or even the infinite.

The roll of a die could be modeled in a software program rather easily.

Science can only study and define finite entities. The infinite has no finite boundaries,
no measurement is possible on the infinite, the infinite is undefined in science.

A random event cannot occur Steve, if a random event ever occurred, then the
universe is beyond comprehension. For to propose that one random event can
occur, infers that other random events occur. This simply means that the universe
is beyond comprehension.

Underneath everything that science has ever learned about the universe. To
consider that what we think is a pattern, could very well be nothing more than
a randomness displaying some pattern. This is beyond the domain of science to
even consider.

Are you saying that sub atomic physics has found a random event. Are you
saying that sub atomic physics is beyond the comprehension of science. We
assume in science that the universe is orderly, displays patterns, that we can
understand it.

A universe that has a set of random events defies understanding. How would
we ever know, whether all events have inbuilt random variables or not?

A random event cannot exist, an event without a cause, this is an undefined
event. Since the outcome of a random is not predictable, not knowable.

 

[SteveB28]

Hello Steve.

Thanks for your reply.

The concept of perfection has no application in space time. Science deals with
space time, not an imaginary domain containing perfection or even the infinite.

The roll of a die could be modeled in a software program rather easily.

A program which would permit an infinite number of input variables!

Science can only study and define finite entities. The infinite has no finite boundaries,
no measurement is possible on the infinite, the infinite is undefined in science.

EXCEPT for mathematics! It can and does consider those probabilities.

And what we are faced with here is a mathematical probability. The probability that all of those hundreds of thousands of ancient viral insertions should be found in identical locations with a 99.99% consistency between two species, can be calculated. It is rather an uncomplicated binomial probability problem.

Not only that, of course. There are further matching locations between humans and gorillas, chimpanzees and gorillas, humans and orangutans, chimpanzees and orangutans and so on. And, in each of these cases, we find the same matchings of identical locations, in keeping with the nested hierarchy of these species, as evolutionary theory would predict.

But, people like you cannot allow yourselves to consider those calculations, can you? Because, if you did, you might be faced with the overwhelming conclusion that the dogma to which you adhere just might be wrong! And we can't have that, can we? Being wrong is simply an impermissible option.........

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Steve.

We are dealing with only a simple roll of a die.

A program which would permit an infinite number of input variables!

Let's say we restrict the straight roll of the die to just the movement of one face.
A gentle push from one face to the next, outcome predicted every time.

Now we partly roll the die again gently, but restricted to just two face movements,
outcome predicted every single partial roll.

We can continue this process and continue the number of faces, theoretically for
very large numbers of rolls.

Your concept of randomness in any die rolls is not supported by a careful management
of the rolls. This means that the assignment of randomness to die rolls in not sound.

Mathematics is not based on real world axioms.
A straight line can exist in mathematics but not in the real world.
A perfect circle can exist in mathematics but not in the real world.
Measurement in mathematics is perfect, measurement in the real world
is always just an approximate measurement.

EXCEPT for mathematics!

You cannot use mathematics and apply it directly to the real world.
Because the axioms of mathematics are not real world axioms.

Your not understanding the distinction between mathematical theory and
mathematical applications in the real world.

There is no straight line in curved space and time.

 

[SteveB28]

Measurement in mathematics is perfect, measurement in the real world
is always just an approximate measurement.

And, when that measurement approaches a 100% match, as in the case of ERV insertions, an "approximate" calculation will be just fine!

You cannot use mathematics and apply it directly to the real world.
Because the axioms of mathematics are not real world axioms.

Except we can! The theoretical conclusion provided by mathematics shows that our die results should reflect a 1 in 6 ratio of one integer against the others.

And our evidence from a "real world" series of trials confirms that understanding!

Your not understanding the distinction between mathematical theory and
mathematical applications in the real world.

You are afraid, aren't you? Every single one of those matching insertion points, the 1 : 9 X 10^13 probability of them falling into that match, scares the life out of you, doesn't it?

You HAVE to find a way of deflecting, of confusing the issue, of hunting for red herrings....because what is your alternative?

To accept the evidence that is staring you in the face!

 

[klutedavid]

And, when that measurement approaches a 100% match, as in the case of ERV insertions, an "approximate" calculation will be just fine!



Except we can! The theoretical conclusion provided by mathematics shows that our die results should reflect a 1 in 6 ratio of one integer against the others.

And our evidence from a "real world" series of trials confirms that understanding!



You are afraid, aren't you? Every single one of those matching insertion points, the 1 : 9 X 10^13 probability of them falling into that match, scares the life out of you, doesn't it?

You HAVE to find a way of deflecting, of confusing the issue, of hunting for red herrings....because what is your alternative?

To accept the evidence that is staring you in the face!

Hello Steve.

We agree to disagree.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Pixie dust. Just like the oort cloud and dark matter and dark energy.
We killed the dinosaurs. Like many other large carnivores.

... you have got to be joking.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You didn't say 'A'. You said 'EVERY', which means
all YEC's are liars.

That wasn't me. That was SteveB28

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

If they can't get past first using fruit flies, they will never get
proof of evolution.

29+ evidences of macroevolution.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Bad argument. Adding energy randomly only makes things worse.
There is no way to get Hulk or the F4 by adding radiation. That only
gives cancer, health problems, sterility and death.

And this shows that you know absolutely nothing about science.
Do you know UV is? It's a form of radiation, which the Earth and everything on it get's hit with every single day.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Proves nothing other than a spider is a spider.

DNA can be used to identify an individual.
It can also be used to identify a species.

You know what it can also be used for?
Determining kinship and ancestry.

Denying it, doesn't make it go away.