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Just for final clarification yes, we evolved from monkeys.

AV1611VET

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You seem to have the idea that a single layer of strata suddenly forms, that is not so.
What I'm trying to point out, since you said this:
Explain how fossils get distributed throughout the geologic strata ...

... is that the dirt comes first, not the bones.

So it's not that the bones are "distributed" into the dirt, but that the dirt covers the bones.

I was born in 1954, and I can assure you the dirt I live on is much older than I.

The dirt and I did not show up at the same time.
 
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RickG

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What I'm trying to point out, since you said this:


... is that the dirt comes first, not the bones.

So it's not that the bones are "distributed" into the dirt, but that the dirt covers the bones.

I was born in 1954, and I can assure you the dirt I live on is much older than I.

The dirt and I did not show up at the same time.
You just don't understand my point. You asked which came first. Both came at the first time. The difference is the strata formed over a period of extended time, while the fossils (bones) collected within that time frame.
 
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rjs330

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Irrelevant to my point.

Well, you've heard it now. If I were persuaded by people like Geisler that that was how I had to read the Bible, I would dismiss the Bible as nonsense immediately. (Also, Geisler is a theologian, not a Bible scholar.)

I think you misunderstood me. The scholarly takes I was referring to were Walton Sparks and Enns. These guys fly in the face of scholarly takes on the bible that have been around for hundreds of years and more. The twisting and turning they do in their thought processes are amazing. And most of them have done very little with looking at other passages of scripture that reaffirm what Genesis is saying. There are ton of assumptions in their arguments that are no where to be found in scripture itself.

The whole reason you love men like these is because they tell you, you don't have to believe what the bible says. You would rather trust in man's nonsense than trust the word of God. You fall dangerously close to Paul's warning that people will worship the creation more that the creator because we see man's knowledge as greater than Gods proclamations. That kind of thinking leads to the twisting of scriptures because scripture as it stands cannot be reconciled with "scientific" beliefs. Thus scripture must be wrong rather that science being wrong. Let God be true and every man a liar.
 
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Speedwell

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I think you misunderstood me. The scholarly takes I was referring to were Walton Sparks and Enns. These guys fly in the face of scholarly takes on the bible that have been around for hundreds of years and more. The twisting and turning they do in their thought processes are amazing. And most of them have done very little with looking at other passages of scripture that reaffirm what Genesis is saying. There are ton of assumptions in their arguments that are no where to be found in scripture itself.
The doctrine of self-interpretation is your doctrine, not theirs.

The whole reason you love men like these is because they tell you, you don't have to believe what the bible says.
Or maybe because we think they're right. You keep blaming it on "evolution," but of all the reasons not to believe your Bible doctrine, evolution isn't even near the top of the list.
Thus scripture must be wrong rather that science being wrong.
Or maybe your Bible doctrine is wrong. You don't own the Bible. You don't get to dictate what other Christians must believe about it--especially when you don't understand why they believe the way they do.
 
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rjs330

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The doctrine of self-interpretation is your doctrine, not theirs.

Or maybe because we think they're right. You keep blaming it on "evolution," but of all the reasons not to believe your Bible doctrine, evolution isn't even near the top of the list. Or maybe your Bible doctrine is wrong. You don't own the Bible. You don't get to dictate what other Christians must believe about it--especially when you don't understand why they believe the way they do.

The doctrine of self interpretation is a Must if you want to understand scripture. The bible does not self interpret every single passage. But to blatantly ignore scripture when it does is the height of literary malpractice. No true scholar would accept such nonsense.

The very basis of biblical scholarship is discovering what the text says. It's not about belief. I can believe a great many things. And I can believe a great many things that are wrong. It doesn't matter a wit what I believe if what I believe contradicts what the bible says. These so called scholars have forgotten the principles of scholarship. Their assumptions are astounding because they use the assumption instead of the scripture.

Scholarship is about the text. And what the text says. Then we should assign our belief based upon what the text says. Not on tradition or mythological belief or some Pharisee says. What does the text say. Its not that difficult. Yet some scholars have opted out of that and into belief. Which is not true scholarship.
 
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rjs330

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And how the text says it, an aspect of scholarship which you ignore.
No, I don't. That's part,of determining what a text says. But the how a text says it doesn't necessarily change what the text says. Some come to fault with that thought process. Genesis being a,good example. As you well know some believe Gen 1 is poetry. Other scholars say it doesn't fit Hebrew poetry. But for arguments sake,even if it was written in poetic format it does not mean it is not fact. But many people base their thought on that rather again by the text.
 
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Speedwell

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No, I don't. That's part,of determining what a text says. But the how a text says it doesn't necessarily change what the text says. Some come to fault with that thought process. Genesis being a,good example. As you well know some believe Gen 1 is poetry. Other scholars say it doesn't fit Hebrew poetry. But for arguments sake,even if it was written in poetic format it does not mean it is not fact. But many people base their thought on that rather again by the text.
What it means is that the proposition that it is accurate historical fact is faith-based, not scholarship. Mind you, if that's what you want to believe, I'm not going to try to talk you out of it. I'm just trying to explain to you why I believe what I do.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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I wanted to also add that in that chart there is missing the direct ancestor of all those major primates pictured. There's no so called grandparent fossil, my words, for the modern orangutan, gorilla, chimpanzee. Those apes did not appear out of nowhere. And today's human is not like any ape today so there is also no transition species or evidence of that hairy ape unto the human being today. That is what is missing in Dawkins chart. Having graphs that lead from apes to a female human isn't evidence.

Ah, you don't know how cladograms work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladogram
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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That's not the evidence. That's evidence of what was stated earlier. There's no direct ancestor evidence of the primates of today. In that regard your picture is great. Nor is there evidence of the gradual transformation of species which the Darwinian theory demands. Though Darwin is not the founder of the theory of evolution it still is required to further his hypothesis.

:scratch: You say this in response to a series of skulls showing a gradual transformation? :scratch:
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Inflammatory responses against Christians is not going to change the facts that apes didn't just appear on earth. Without evidence of a direct ancestors of all the major orders: primates, carnivores, and so forth , the one's lacking credibility are those that claim those creatures just appeared without direct ancestor fossils.
Experts in the field recognize that.

"They are here today; they have no yesterday." Donald Johansen, Paleontologist

You shouldn't make specious accusations against your fellow forum members.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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That's not how stratification works though.
So if there was creation and a flood, you would find what we find today too, you see.
It even explains it better because of the evidence for (relatively) rapid fossilization and stratification.

Oh my. We observe the opposite of what we'd expect to find if the Flood actually occurred - both geologically and paleontologically.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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rjs330

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What it means is that the proposition that it is accurate historical fact is faith-based, not scholarship. Mind you, if that's what you want to believe, I'm not going to try to talk you out of it. I'm just trying to explain to you why I believe what I do.
Actually no. It is based on scholarship. Scholarship lets the text speak for itself. It's only upon outside influences that change ones thoughts about the text. It's called outside bias. And for Genesis this outside bias is usually based upon science. Since science tries to tell us Genesis cannot be accurate therefore their must be another answer. The other answers are usually relegated Genesis being poetry or referring to other uninspired ancient literature. Instead of just letting scripture speak for itself. Of you do there is no other answer. Failure to,take,it at face value is not scholarship but biased thinking not based on scripture but outside influence.
 
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sfs

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Actually no. It is based on scholarship. Scholarship lets the text speak for itself. It's only upon outside influences that change ones thoughts about the text.
This would be nice if it were true, but it's not even remotely the case. It's always a human being reading the text, a human being from a particular cultural context, with expectations about how texts work and about how to read. "Letting the text speak for itself" means nothing more than going with whatever default presuppositions and biases you happen to have inherited. If you let the text "speak for itself", it will tell you something very different than it would have told a 14th century Scholastic or a 1st century Jew.
It's called outside bias. And for Genesis this outside bias is usually based upon science.
Also not true. For most Biblical scholars, the "outside bias" is the cultural context of the ancient Near East -- the context in which Genesis was written.
 
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rjs330

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This would be nice if it were true, but it's not even remotely the case. It's always a human being reading the text, a human being from a particular cultural context, with expectations about how texts work and about how to read. "Letting the text speak for itself" means nothing more than going with whatever default presuppositions and biases you happen to have inherited. If you let the text "speak for itself", it will tell you something very different than it would have told a 14th century Scholastic or a 1st century Jew.

Also not true. For most Biblical scholars, the "outside bias" is the cultural context of the ancient Near East -- the context in which Genesis was written.

Complete nonsense. The text speaks for itself is the basis of scholarship. Using the ancient Near East cultural context is only good if you need it because the text is confusing. Jimminy Christmas, the bible would not be truth of we all were only able to,understand it if we were a 14th century Jew. You make my,point very eloquently on why your idea is a false one.

If we cannot claim the bible is truth but only truth on,how you interpret it, then NO ONE can really understand or interpret scripture. Gods truth is fluid,depending on who's reading it. That's nonsense. How could we possibly follow scripture if we cannot or do not know what its really saying. We have no right then to use scripture,to,teach, reprove or exort because my truth is different than yours. When Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life and no,one comes to the Father except through me" it is not a fluid statement to,be interpreted any way we see fit. Your philosophy leads to,no ultimate truth because all truth including scriptural truth is only based on bias.

Make an effort to present yourself to God as a tried-and-true worker, who doesn’t need to be ashamed but is one who interprets the message of truth correctly.
2 Timothy 2:15 CEB
http://bible.com/37/2ti.2.15.CEB

Since childhood you have known the holy scriptures that help you to be wise in a way that leads to salvation through faith that is in Christ Jesus. Every scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for showing mistakes, for correcting, and for training character, so that the person who belongs to God can be equipped to do everything that is good.
2 Timothy 3:15‭-‬17 CEB
http://bible.com/37/2ti.3.15-17.CE

The message can be interpreted correctly. We are to set aside bias. That's the point of true scholarship. Conform,your thoughts to Gods word not vice versa.
 
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bhsmte

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Complete nonsense. The text speaks for itself is the basis of scholarship. Using the ancient Near East cultural context is only good if you need it because the text is confusing. Jimminy Christmas, the bible would not be truth of we all were only able to,understand it if we were a 14th century Jew. You make my,point very eloquently on why your idea is a false one.

If we cannot claim the bible is truth but only truth on,how you interpret it, then NO ONE can really understand or interpret scripture. Gods truth is fluid,depending on who's reading it. That's nonsense. How could we possibly follow scripture if we cannot or do not know what its really saying. We have no right then to use scripture,to,teach, reprove or exort because my truth is different than yours. When Jesus says "I am the way, the truth and the life and no,one comes to the Father except through me" it is not a fluid statement to,be interpreted any way we see fit. Your philosophy leads to,no ultimate truth because all truth including scriptural truth is only based on bias.

Make an effort to present yourself to God as a tried-and-true worker, who doesn’t need to be ashamed but is one who interprets the message of truth correctly.
2 Timothy 2:15 CEB
http://bible.com/37/2ti.2.15.CEB

Since childhood you have known the holy scriptures that help you to be wise in a way that leads to salvation through faith that is in Christ Jesus. Every scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for showing mistakes, for correcting, and for training character, so that the person who belongs to God can be equipped to do everything that is good.
2 Timothy 3:15‭-‬17 CEB
http://bible.com/37/2ti.3.15-17.CE

The message can be interpreted correctly. We are to set aside bias. That's the point of true scholarship. Conform,your thoughts to Gods word not vice versa.

If the text spoke for itself, you wouldnt need scholars.
 
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Speedwell

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Since science tries to tell us Genesis cannot be accurate therefore their must be another answer.
LOL! You seem to have an obsession about science, but for my part if the theories of evolution and an ancient cosmos were overturned by credible evidence tomorrow, my opinion of Genesis would not change.
 
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rjs330

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If the text spoke for itself, you wouldnt need scholars.
We don't. Scholarship is available to every believer. Its not just for "educated folks". That's part of the problem. Some believe that because someone throws "I'm a scholar" on the end of their name they suddenly have greater insight. We don't need education. We need the spirit of God. In the days of the NT Paul told us that individuals in the church were granted to be teachers. He never said they had to get edumacated. The spirit guide s not a text book.
 
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Hieronymus

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You just don't understand my point. You asked which came first. Both came at the first time. The difference is the strata formed over a period of extended time, while the fossils (bones) collected within that time frame.
Nope, they can form in days or weeks, many layers even at the same time.
 
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