Just doing a straw poll

[erin74]

Just want to get an idea of where people stand. I have recently been in a number of discussions in the area of women's ordination and women submitting to their husbands.

What I'd like to know is this:
Do you believe women should submit to their husbands?
Do you believe that a woman should not teach or have authority over a man?

I am not looking to start a huge debate - just a straw poll to see if I am right in assuming what I assume people would think on this thread.

Also - where I am going with this. I have had a lot of people play the culture card on these topics.... It occurred to me that if the people of Sodom were told that they shouldn't rape people would they have said - "well that is a cultural thing and Lot is a bit of a weirdo fundamentalist on that one. It's commonly accpeted to be ok and we have moved on from a culture that doesn't allow this kind of behaviour." Sorry I am using an extreme hypothetical scenario which has not weight whatsoever, and am happy to be told that. I agree completely. It was just a thought I had is all.

I know that there are some things in the bible that are cultural. So how do you go about deciding what you think is cultural and what is not?

For me if the bible gives a reason that is linked to something bigger than culture I tend not to let the culture card have a place... but I am obviously flying in the face of what other people view as normal in doing this....
So, consequently, I hold a conservative view on both of the topics above, and yet still love women! Yet I find people assume I am downtrodden, etc to do so..... just to give you an idea of where I am coming from - only fair really.

Thoughts please - and I am looking for friendly discussion overall. That is why I came here.

erin

 

[mannysee]

hi,

in answer to your questions: no, and no.
As to a woman in submission to her husband, if one reads the whole passage in Ephesians regarding husbands/wives/Christ/the church/the body/marriage, the whole idea of mutual love and submission to each other for Christs sake is seen.
When I read this entire passage, i am overawed at the mystery of marriage and Christ and the church. As opposed to when one says, "Women must submit to their husbands" alone, and the steam begins to come out of a ladies ears!
No, for the second question, as this regards positions of authority within the church, and this is again, how God designed things.

 

[cygnusx1]

Now Listen I wear the trousers in my house !!! ...............



.....................


................


.... My Wife says I must!

 

[oworm]

Now Listen I wear the trousers in my house !!! ...

Right on. Me too. I come and go as i please. Dinner is ready WHEN I say it will be ready. The house is cleaned WHEN I say it will be cleaned. The ironing is done WHEN I say it will be done. I stay on my PC as long as i like and leave my clothes lying around wherever i want. I also leave the toilet seat up and do the dishes if i feel like it!
I never hear a word of complaint about this and thats the way it should be!































Of course this will probably all change if i ever marry

 

[HiredGoon]

What I'd like to know is this:
Do you believe women should submit to their husbands?

Yes, a wife should submit to her husband, and the husband should love his wife as Christ loves the church.

Do you believe that a woman should not teach or have authority over a man?

Yes, she should not teach nor have authority over a man. For this reason the Orthodox Presbyterian Church does not have female pastors or elders.

 

[5solas]

..... I never hear a word of complaint about this and thats the way it should be!

Of course this will probably all change if i ever marry

Probably - it depends on the wife you get....



I do not think that women should either teach within the Church or be elders.

With the exception of:

Titus 2:3-4 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children,

 

[Jon_]

Do you believe women should submit to their husbands?

(Eph. 5:22 KJV) Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

​

Yep.

Do you believe that a woman should not teach or have authority over a man?

(1 Tim. 2:12 KJV) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

​

Yep.

I am not looking to start a huge debate - just a straw poll to see if I am right in assuming what I assume people would think on this thread.

Yeah, you will probably find a fairly strong concensus on this issue among Reformed thinkers. Even among the ladies, for which I am grateful.

Also - where I am going with this. I have had a lot of people play the culture card on these topics.... It occurred to me that if the people of Sodom were told that they shouldn't rape people would they have said - "well that is a cultural thing and Lot is a bit of a weirdo fundamentalist on that one. It's commonly accpeted to be ok and we have moved on from a culture that doesn't allow this kind of behaviour." Sorry I am using an extreme hypothetical scenario which has not weight whatsoever, and am happy to be told that. I agree completely. It was just a thought I had is all.

It is a little bit of an extreme example, but it is also a perfect valid one. There are no "culture-specific" commandments in the Bible, excepting perhaps those that deal with eating and not eating. The commandment of Paul is explicit, though. Unless you refuse the inspiration of Scripture, it must be understood that Paul's commandment was inspired by the Holy Spirit, which means it is a commandment from God.

I know that there are some things in the bible that are cultural. So how do you go about deciding what you think is cultural and what is not?

There are? That's interesting. I've never seen any Biblical commandment that only applied to a specific culture (the Law, of course, being a very special consideration because of its theological implications).

For me if the bible gives a reason that is linked to something bigger than culture I tend not to let the culture card have a place... but I am obviously flying in the face of what other people view as normal in doing this....

So, consequently, I hold a conservative view on both of the topics above, and yet still love women! Yet I find people assume I am downtrodden, etc to do so..... just to give you an idea of where I am coming from - only fair really.

Thoughts please - and I am looking for friendly discussion overall. That is why I came here.

It is wonderful to know that you recognize the privilege and grace of the position that the Lord has given you on earth. With it comes great responsibility and you appear to have accepted that as well. I'm glad that all of the modern humanism that has been infecting the church has not ensnared you with its deception. God be glorified for sanctifying you with knowledge.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JJB]

Hi Erin,

You've got a sister here who agrees with you! It is a cultural bias that women should be teaching and preaching. It started in the 70s and continues to this day. It's the same cultural belief that says women should aspire to mens' jobs. I am happily free from that. I worked before we had children, now I don't intend to return to a paying job until the time is right -- which depends on our family. I'm not jealous of the world of men.

I love being a wife and mom. I would not change it for the world. I love the sphere of influence God has blessed me with! A noisy house full of giggling girls is right up my alley. Taking care of a husband, who likewise takes care of me is a blessing.

 

[Jon_]

Hi Erin,

You've got a sister here who agrees with you! It is a cultural bias that women should be teaching and preaching. It started in the 70s and continues to this day. It's the same cultural belief that says women should aspire to mens' jobs. I am happily free from that. I worked before we had children, now I don't intend to return to a paying job until the time is right -- which depends on our family. I'm not jealous of the world of men.

I love being a wife and mom. I would not change it for the world. I love the sphere of influence God has blessed me with! A noisy house full of giggling girls is right up my alley. Taking care of a husband, who likewise takes care of me is a blessing.

I LOVE YA, JULES!

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JJB]

I LOVE YA, JULES!

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

How'd you know my nickname? lol That is what my friends call me!

 

[erin74]

Thanks for your responses.

It's what I was hoping to get... just some confirmation that I am not completely on my own here in what I believe. Sometimes on this site it feels as if I am, and have a completely faulty way of viewing scripture.

I was sharing on another part of the forum that I thought that Eph 5 showed us how husbands and wives relate in a similar way to the members of the godhead. That is the son submits to the father, just as a wife is to submit to her husband. That there is order in the godhead - the spirit does not direct the son, nor the son the father. The same being that the wife does not direct her husband. And yet the spirit and the son are no less God because of it, just as the wife is still an equal within the marriage.

It seems that this was something a bit new to a lot of people, and that it was considered poor judgement to not make marriage decisions together (implying of course that I had no say whatsoever). I think that the words I received were along the lines of "good intentions do not necessarily bring good decisions"....

I find that to be able to model our marriage on the trinity is an immense priviledge, and I feel sad that feminism has caused so many christians to miss out on this. Don't get me wrong - I am not anti-woman. I am very pro-woman. I want for woman to have a right to stay at home and raise their kids without being judged as a doormat by the world!

enough raving

thanks

erin

 

[Knight]

Yes and yes.

For reasons already stated.

 

[Jon_]

How'd you know my nickname? lol That is what my friends call me!

I'm sneaky like that.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JJB]

Thanks for your responses.

It's what I was hoping to get... just some confirmation that I am not completely on my own here in what I believe. Sometimes on this site it feels as if I am, and have a completely faulty way of viewing scripture.

I was sharing on another part of the forum that I thought that Eph 5 showed us how husbands and wives relate in a similar way to the members of the godhead. That is the son submits to the father, just as a wife is to submit to her husband. That there is order in the godhead - the spirit does not direct the son, nor the son the father. The same being that the wife does not direct her husband. And yet the spirit and the son are no less God because of it, just as the wife is still an equal within the marriage.

It seems that this was something a bit new to a lot of people, and that it was considered poor judgement to not make marriage decisions together (implying of course that I had no say whatsoever). I think that the words I received were along the lines of "good intentions do not necessarily bring good decisions"....

I find that to be able to model our marriage on the trinity is an immense priviledge, and I feel sad that feminism has caused so many christians to miss out on this. Don't get me wrong - I am not anti-woman. I am very pro-woman. I want for woman to have a right to stay at home and raise their kids without being judged as a doormat by the world!

enough raving

thanks

erin

Hi Erin,

That this concept is new to believers shows how much our culture has infected the body of Christ. God offers us a much better way, as usual!

There is no way I would construe what you are saying to be anti-woman. That's what the world says, tho.

One question I have considered but haven't dared to ask is this: Why is it that a woman is willing to submit to a boss who does not love her but will pay her, but will not or is thought of as less for submitting to a husband who does love her? It makes no sense.

This issue comes up at family gatherings for us. It usually comes from other women, who are not believers. They find it threatening somehow that we chose to have our children raised by parents rather than people who do not have our children's best interest at heart. If you follow the trail, it typically ends at the value we place on money over and above our own children. Not always for every person, but in our family's situation that's where the trail ends. There are situations where this cannot be and then trust in God is utmost.

Okay, I'll vacate the soapbox for the next speaker!

Julie

 

[JJB]

I'm sneaky like that.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

You're so funny. That sense of humor God gave you is wonderful!

 

[erin74]

Hi Erin,

One question I have considered but haven't dared to ask is this: Why is it that a woman is willing to submit to a boss who does not love her but will pay her, but will not or is thought of as less for submitting to a husband who does love her? It makes no sense.

I think the difficulty with this argument is that men do the same thing - submit to their bosses for money. But I agree with you that it makes no sense. I also think that they would argue that it isn't submission - but this is more about a faulty perception of submission than a bad argument.

This issue comes up at family gatherings for us. It usually comes from other women, who are not believers. They find it threatening somehow that we chose to have our children raised by parents rather than people who do not have our children's best interest at heart. If you follow the trail, it typically ends at the value we place on money over and above our own children. Not always for every person, but in our family's situation that's where the trail ends. There are situations where this cannot be and then trust in God is utmost.

I think some women who work sometimes have feelings of guilt that they may not have dealt with well. A lot of women haven't considered that they can go with less money - it is that foreign a concept. And they would really like to be home with their kids, but they truly believe that they can't afford it. For some it's true - they can't because feminism has gained for us the situation where it is unaffordable for a family to buy property on one wage alone in most places. Also some people chose a lifestyle - be it where they live, what car they drive, etc, that makes it impossible for their families to live on one wage alone. Have they realised that they are chosing the lifestyle above staying home with their kids? I suspect some yes, hence some feelings of guilt and attempts to justify. Some no, and so have feelings they may not have dealt with either. I suspect both lead to guilt feelings, and in turn they treat those of us who chose to do this badly. Perhaps this is an attempted justification. They 'despise' (too strong a word but I can't find a replacement) that we have prioritised differently, and perhaps in a way that they are not bold enough to chose.

I know I will get shot down by some women for this.... I certainly wouldn't be bold enough to post so candidly in some other parts of the forum. There are probably other factors at play as well that I haven't considered.... but I see this as the heart of it.

The thing that I am noticing more and more on CF and church is that there are a lot of christians trying to marry our culture and christianity, and are left justifying their choice. Usually in all of the this the bible seems to be the part that gets compromised. Where does this come from - is it from poor bible teaching to start with, or is the lure of the world the problem. Or is it a combiation of the two?

Ok - now I have officially finished raving!

erin

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

I will agree with the consensus here, but just add one small thing. A lot of folks think that the wife has no authority at all, or at least not so much as to mean anything. The Bible is pretty clear, I think, that this notion is false. We know that the wife has authority over her husband's body (1 Cor. 7:4), an authority which would mortify a great many modern husbands, especially those who have little vices they would like to keep from their wives. She also has authority over the management of the household (1 Tim. 5:14), also to the dismay of many men today. Proverbs 31 indicates that the husband trusts in his wife for several things which she has genuine authority over, even though she is under his authority. I think it would come as a shock to many Christian men to learn that although they have authority over their wives, they are responsible for using that authority to ensure that she uses her authority over him in these areas.

 

[5solas]

Amen!