Just a quick question for law proponents.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 6, 2011

Lysimachus said:
This "the law" business is getting old. It ain't flyin.

Some just like the "old stuff" I guess

Luke 5:37 "And no one is casting young wine into OLD vessels, if yet no surely shall be ruined the wine, the young of the vessels and it shall be being poured out and its vessels shall be perishing .
38 but young wine into NEW/kainouV <2537> vessels is to be cast and both are preserved together.
39 and no one drinking old immediately is willing young, for he is saying, 'for the the Old kind/mellow is'".
[Matt 9:17/Mark 2:22/Hebrews 8:13]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7549230-2/#post57234334
Are you under THE law, Grace or both (2)

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
You're missing my point in all of what I wrote...my point is that if Scripture says PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS --that must mean..that there is more than one explanation or definition of righteousness...UNLESS the Word is instructing us to practice salvation--which in that case makes sense, because keeping of Torah is putting our faith in action. Work your salvation with fear and trembling. Faith without works of faith is dead.

faith without works is dead, yet james who said that, did not want mosaic works added to the church in acts 15. Why?

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
I have responded twice to you on this very thing.

Care to try for 3

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
All your arguments stem from your interpretation of the word "nomos" to mean the Torah of G-d, without actually knowing (contextually) if it actually is talking about the Instructions of G-d, or the Law of G-d, or the 10 commandments, or the Psalms, or the entire "OT" or the law of sin, or the law of death, or the punishments in the Law of G-d. Just a couple of meanings behind the word "nomos" off the top of my head.
Of course if you want to substitute the word "law" here to mean "Torah of G-d", that is between you and G-d.
It doesn't agree with the rest of Scriptures, say for instance David (Psalm 1) talking about the Torah of G-d and saying "blessed is the man who does not walk by the wicked, or stand with the wicked or sit with the wicked." BUT....DELIGHTS in the Torah of G-d. (Righteous man delights in the Torah of G-d and meditates in His Torah day and night)
hmmm I thought the Torah of G-d is only for the wicked...
see how flawed "Torah of G-d is only for the wicked" argument is?

lol..read the list of people in 1 tim 1, it was about moral law, just like rom 1, same list, and..

THE HOLY SPIRIT, said, get THE LAW TEACHERS OUTTA TIM'S CHURCH.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
Grace and the law aren't the same thing. I never said that grace is dismissed. Read Romans 11:32 for the express purpose of the law. This is different from the reason of the law - Rom 4:15. The reason for the law is to legally charge and punish allowing for the purpose of the law - grace to exist.

Sounds pretty simple to me

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

visionary said:
Is the faith of all the believers in scripture up for question? Like the question asked...

Is Abraham a believer?
Is Moses a believer?
Is Isaiah a believer?
Is Daniel a believer?
Is Yeshua a believer?
Is Nicodemus a believer?
Is Timothy a believer?
Is Paul a believer?

HEHEHEH, the law is not of faith..read gal 3;12, it was juxtaposed to 3;11, the way of faith..

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 6, 2011

Frogster said:
HEHEHEH, the law is not of faith..read gal 3;12, it was juxtaposed to 3;11, the way of faith..

I like Galatians

http://www.christianforums.com/t7411599-20/#post53440207
Galatians Chapter 3

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Galatians and Acts 15 tell the JEWISH believer that the perpetual, forever, everlasting Instructions and signs between G-d and Israel are no longer applicable because Yeshua died?
As in...Yes G-d commanded that they'd be kept FOREVER, throughout all their generations (of believers), but it didn't actually mean forever but rather stopped when the Messiah died?

What about Definitely written after Yeshua's death.

just remember 70 ad...

all the jewish christians in antioch, were not living torah, but yes..u can ignore that again!

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 6, 2011

Frogster said:
faith without works is dead, yet james who said that, did not want mosaic works added to the church in acts 15. Why?

Cuz they were a burden?

Acts 15:10 Now then why are ye trying the God, to put a yoke/zugon <2218> upon the neck of the Disciples, which neither the fathers of us neither are we able to bear?
[Deut 28:48/Reve 6:5]

Reve 6:5 And when it up opens up the third seal, I hear the third living one saying "Be coming'!
And I saw and Behold! A black horse, and the one sitting on him having a yoke/zugon <2218> in the hand of him..
[Deut 28:18/Acts 15:10]

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Again you are using your understanding of the word "nomos" to substitute it with the Torah of G-d. It simply does not fit the description.
You are telling me that the perfect, righteous, pure, good, spiritual, holy Torah of G-d's sole purpose is to charge and punish. This is a false statement. Period.

You need to figure out what law this nomos is talking about in this particular passage before you go throwing "THE law" around...

then make a clear refute to the text, you just keeping saying torah, torah..,,but lets see a scritptural rebuttal, post the verse, then scaratch or myself, wil accomodate u.
post it..

ivebeenshown · Dec 6, 2011

Frogster said:
faith without works is dead, yet james who said that, did not want mosaic works added to the church in acts 15. Why?

You mean the same James who, at the same council, agreed with the Holy Spirit and the other Apostles that Gentiles should be required to abstain from fornication and eating blood?

We're not called to keep the law of Moses -- however, don't confuse the parts for the whole.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 6, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
You mean the same James who, at the same council, agreed with the Holy Spirit and the other Apostles that Gentiles should be required to abstain from fornication and eating blood?

We're not called to keep the law of Moses -- however, don't confuse the parts for the whole.

Good point

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
You mean the same James who, at the same council, agreed with the Holy Spirit and the other Apostles that Gentiles should be required to abstain from fornication and eating blood?

We're not called to keep the law of Moses -- however, don't confuse the parts for the whole.

then don't eat meat of there is blood in it, and don't eat pork!

i mean , if your gonna hole up the ceremonial, got for it!
no more shrimp, or lobster in butter!

visionary · Dec 6, 2011

Frogster said:
then don't eat meat of there is blood in it, and don't eat pork!

i mean , if your gonna hole up the ceremonial, got for it!
no more shrimp, or lobster in butter!

Acts 15 only covers the blood in meat.. is this something you follow?

New_Wineskin · Dec 6, 2011

Frogster said:
If one blows it under law, and condemns himself for the "slip up".
Sort of like if our puppy makes a mistake on the rug.

Who gets the credit, when one has a "good day" the under law?

Romans 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

I have another question ...

Why do the Law proponents call it a "slip up" or something like that when they disobey the Law and yet call those that don't consider the Law for them "disobedient" to the Lord ? What makes them better ?

hmmmm ...

Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: Gods name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.[b]

Of course , they don't call themselves "Jews" . Jews don't do this anymore . If they think that slight loophole dismisses them from Paul's argument , there really won't be an honest discussion .

New_Wineskin · Dec 6, 2011

Lysimachus said:
This "the law" business is getting old. It ain't flyin.

So call it "biblical authority" . A rose by any other name ...

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

visionary said:
Acts 15 only covers the blood in meat.. is this something you follow?

lets not forget, the issue..whose name is here?

5But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

New_Wineskin said:
I have another question ...

Why do the Law proponents call it a "slip up" or something like that when they disobey the Law and yet call those that don't consider the Law for them "disobedient" to the Lord ? What makes them better ?

hmmmm ...

Of course , they don't call themselves "Jews" . Jews don't do this anymore . If they think that slight loophole dismisses them from Paul's argument , there really won't be an honest discussion .

perfect! u get a cheesesteak on me!

yup, if they wan't condemn others along with themsleves, then they gotta praise themselves.

Lysimachus · Dec 6, 2011

New_Wineskin said:
So call it "biblical authority" . A rose by any other name ...

Well, the reason I said that was because his expression is trying to emphasize that there is no "distinction" in the law. In other words, if you're going to keep one law, you have to keep all 613. That is the implication of his profuse use of the term.

While I believe "THE law" is to be kept, there is clearly a distinction within that "THE law" package. These include the Moral Law, the Ceremonial Law, the Civil Law, and Hygienic Laws. All of it together was "THE law", but a number of these laws are now realized Antitypically.

Sacrifices, circumcision, offerings, sprinkling of blood, incense, festivals, etc. etc. all still exist, but spiritually as we rest in the atoning merits of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Nonetheless, Christ's intercessory work still involves his intercession for those who confess their sins against the Law of God, for which the Ten are the foundation to all of Christ's extensive laws. And this Testimony, the original Tables of Stone, are found in the Ark of the Covenant in heaven where Christ Ministers (Revelation 11:19; 15:5).

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

Lysimachus said:
Well, the reason I said that was because his expression is trying to emphasize that there is no "distinction" in the law. In other words, if you're going to keep one law, you have to keep all 613. That is the implication of his profuse use of the term.

While I believe "THE law" is to be kept, there is clearly a distinction within that "THE law" package. These include the Moral Law, the Ceremonial Law, the Civil Law, and Hygienic Laws. All of it together was "THE law", but a number of these laws are now realized Antitypically.

Sacrifices, circumcision, offerings, sprinkling of blood, incense, festivals, etc. etc. all still exist, but spiritually as we rest in the atoning merits of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary.

Nonetheless, Christ's intercessory work still involves his intercession for those who confess their sins against the Law of God, for which the Ten are the foundation to all of Christ's extensive laws. And this Testimony, the original Tables of Stone, are found in the Ark of the Covenant in heaven where Christ Ministers (Revelation 11:19; 15:5).

do u mean the law where sin had dominiom? Rom 6;14.

Just a quick question for law proponents.

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