Just a quick question for law proponents.

tzadik · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
Grace and the law aren't the same thing. I never said that grace is dismissed. Read Romans 11:32 for the express purpose of the law. This is different from the reason of the law - Rom 4:15. The reason for the law is to legally charge and punish allowing for the purpose of the law - grace to exist.

Again you are using your understanding of the word "nomos" to substitute it with the Torah of G-d. It simply does not fit the description.
You are telling me that the perfect, righteous, pure, good, spiritual, holy Torah of G-d's sole purpose is to charge and punish. This is a false statement. Period.

You need to figure out what law this nomos is talking about in this particular passage before you go throwing "THE law" around...

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
All your arguments stem from your interpretation of the word "nomos" to mean the Torah of G-d, without actually knowing (contextually) if it actually is talking about the Instructions of G-d, or the Law of G-d, or the 10 commandments, or the Psalms, or the entire "OT" or the law of sin, or the law of death, or the punishments in the Law of G-d. Just a couple of meanings behind the word "nomos" off the top of my head.
Of course if you want to substitute the word "law" here to mean "Torah of G-d", that is between you and G-d.
It doesn't agree with the rest of Scriptures, say for instance David (Psalm 1) talking about the Torah of G-d and saying "blessed is the man who does not walk by the wicked, or stand with the wicked or sit with the wicked." BUT....DELIGHTS in the Torah of G-d. (Righteous man delights in the Torah of G-d and meditates in His Torah day and night)
hmmm I thought the Torah of G-d is only for the wicked...
see how flawed "Torah of G-d is only for the wicked" argument is?

We went over that before and I invited you to show the word nomos anything else besides the law -towrah or Torah and get no response. So am I correct or are you being lazy? I don't think you have a leg to stand on and are trying to confuse people. You sure aren't confusing me. You do this with the word towrah and then Insist it is the law by the use of the T. Do you undrestand yet?

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
WOW. I capitalize the T in Torah or all of it (TORAH) because it's the HOLY WORD OF G-D!
<shakes head> I don't know what else to tell ya.
The Torah = the Instructions of G-d for His people. (I capitalized the I in Instructions too)

You're misusing the word as the MJ folks do. What can I say.

tzadik · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
We went over that before and I invited you to show the word nomos anything else besides the law -towrah or Torah and get no response. So am I correct or are you being lazy? I don't think you have a leg to stand on and are trying to confuse people. You sure aren't confusing me. You do this with the word towrah and then Insist it is the law by the use of the T. Do you undrestand yet?

I say Torah with a capital T because it's the WORD of G-d. I already explained this ---if you look at all the posts written--before accusing...
scroll back and look at all my posts in this thread --replying or "talking" to you...

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Oh brother. Do the covenants change the way G-d wants us to walk in His ways?
"the word believers strictly applies to Christians unless the context states otherwise."
Was Abraham a believer?
Was David a believer?
Was John the Baptist a believer?
Were Zechariah and Elizabeth believers?
Was Moses a believer?

According to you or the Scripture. No God doesn't want us to practice sin which is the only consistant thing between both covenants. No John the Baptist and Zechariah and Elizabeth weren't Christians. What you have as would be the same as saying Joshua was a Cthristian. No you people weren't followers of the Messiah known Jesus the Christ (Messiah) after which Christians are called. Burden of proof is on you, not me. There is no conclusive proof and silence isn't suffient.

You're misusing the word believer.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

visionary said:
Is the faith of all the believers in scripture up for question? Like the question asked...

Is Abraham a believer?
Is Moses a believer?
Is Isaiah a believer?
Is Daniel a believer?
Is Yeshua a believer?
Is Nicodemus a believer?
Is Timothy a believer?
Is Paul a believer?

So I must ask believers of what? Only the last 3 you named even remotely had the opportunity to be classified as Christians. The use of the word believer here is being abused.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Luke 16:16? What about Luke 16:17 which tells us clearly that the Torah of G-d is DEFINITELY not over. If the Torah of G-d is actually over, why did they continue keeping it? why did they continue to talk about it? Do you realize that MUCH of what was prophesied in "Law and the Prophets" have not yet been fulfilled? Yes the first coming of the Messiah was fulfilled, but that was not the ONLY thing "CONCERNING the Messiah" that was written in the Torah...or do you think that His first coming fulfilled EVERYTHING written in the law and the prophets? I hope not.
So you see the Torah of G-d can not be over and done with, for there are still many shadows of wonderful things to come that we are still waiting on.
So even in it's prophetic facet alone, the Torah is FAR from being over and done. (EVEN concerning the Messiah Himself!!)

Ah yes you sprang that verse on me before. In the previous verse Jesus clearly states the law and the prophets were until John which means very clearly that their era has passed from time.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Since you didn't respond on it and are talking AGAIN about 1 Tim 1:8-10:

All your arguments stem from your interpretation of the word "nomos" to mean the Torah of G-d, without actually knowing (contextually) if it actually is talking about the Instructions of G-d, or the Law of G-d, or the 10 commandments, or the Psalms, or the entire "OT" or the law of sin, or the law of death, or the punishments in the Law of G-d. Just a couple of meanings behind the word "nomos" off the top of my head.
Of course if you want to substitute the word "law" here to mean "Torah of G-d", that is between you and G-d.
It doesn't agree with the rest of Scriptures, say for instance David (Psalm 1) talking about the Torah of G-d and saying "blessed is the man who does not walk by the wicked, or stand with the wicked or sit with the wicked." BUT....DELIGHTS in the Torah of G-d. (Righteous man delights in the Torah of G-d and meditates in His Torah day and night)
hmmm I thought the Torah of G-d is only for the wicked...
see how flawed "Torah of G-d is only for the wicked" argument is?

I have responded twice to you on this very thing.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Lol you mean Yeshua did away with His Father's Holy day with that statement (which already is the son doing something on his own against his father's command)...yet continued to keep the Sabbath Himself? (Matthew 12) Not to mention, all of the believers continued keeping Sabbath and meeting on the Sabbath to hear the word of G-d. It's quite amazing how easy Scriptures are at pointing truth. We must be however ready to drop our own thoughts our own traditions, our flawed human understanding and submit to His Word.

Hosea 2:11. I'm ready for the her argument BTW.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Galatians and Acts 15 tell the JEWISH believer that the perpetual, forever, everlasting Instructions and signs between G-d and Israel are no longer applicable because Yeshua died?
As in...Yes G-d commanded that they'd be kept FOREVER, throughout all their generations (of believers), but it didn't actually mean forever but rather stopped when the Messiah died?

What about Definitely written after Yeshua's death.

This has nothing to do the the 7th day sabbath called sabbaton in the NT. The word used in Heb 4:9 is sabbatismos. In Mat 11:28-30 Jesus declared Himself to be this rest that they couldn't enter into as God declared. Really a fasinating subject merriting a thread by itself.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Lol you mean Yeshua did away with His Father's Holy day with that statement (which already is the son doing something on his own against his father's command)...yet continued to keep the Sabbath Himself? (Matthew 12) Not to mention, all of the believers continued keeping Sabbath and meeting on the Sabbath to hear the word of G-d. It's quite amazing how easy Scriptures are at pointing truth. We must be however ready to drop our own thoughts our own traditions, our flawed human understanding and submit to His Word.

Who are these believers you refer to? Are they Jews in Jerusalem or the Gentiles, Paul and Peter living as Gentiles in Antioch? You still haven't divorced ethnic heritage from spiritual life. Even the council at Jerusalem didn't require the keeping of the sabbath. And they wer Jews even thd disciples of Jesus making that statement.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Again you are using your understanding of the word "nomos" to substitute it with the Torah of G-d. It simply does not fit the description.
You are telling me that the perfect, righteous, pure, good, spiritual, holy Torah of G-d's sole purpose is to charge and punish. This is a false statement. Period.

You need to figure out what law this nomos is talking about in this particular passage before you go throwing "THE law" around...

Beg your pardon in a rose garden.

Jesus used the word nomos in reference to the towrah and/or the Torah. Even you use the word the with Torah. That word gives exclusive meaning to what ever follows it.

You can insit on my ignorance all you want to. Who died and made you God as the saying goes?

I don't take this subject lightly.

Your next inference that I'm ignorant will be reported. I hope you understand.

Lysimachus · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
Do you have some other explanation? I didn't see it. I don't see how if you observe or keep the law you're not under it. Especially since it seems to be a condition of salvation for you. If one isn't obedient to the law, I take your position is that they aren't a Christian or in possession of salvation called eternal life. Perhaps you can explain this.

If you don't understand my agreement with Frogster on this point I have no clue how to make it plain. And what does it matter anyway?

This "the law" business is getting old. It ain't flyin.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
I say Torah with a capital T because it's the WORD of G-d. I already explained this ---if you look at all the posts written--before accusing...
scroll back and look at all my posts in this thread --replying or "talking" to you...

The complete Bible isn't referred to as the Torah. You know this and I have pointed out the use of Torah to you. If you wish to continue the mis use of the word please be my guest. I have told you what it means in English. I didn't write the rules of language. You simply aren't communicating what you wish.

I have tried to help you communicate what you wish. If you don't like it and refuse my suggestion it is fine by me. Keep having these communication problems. Not my problem.

from scratch · Dec 6, 2011

Lysimachus said:
This "the law" business is getting old. It ain't flyin.

If you don't like engage yourself elsewhere.

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
See that's where we part ways Scratch. You purport that salvation = righteousness and righteous=salvation.
So when you read verses like
Psalm 106:3 "How blessed are those who keep justice, Who practice righteousness at all times!"
Ezekiel 18:5, 22 "But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness...All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live."
Ezekiel 45:9 `Thus says the Lord GOD, "Enough, you princes of Israel; put away violence and destruction, and practice justice and righteousness. Stop your expropriations from My people," declares the Lord GOD."
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Romans 10:5 "For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness."
Matthew 6:1 "Practice not your righteousness before men"
1 John 2:29 "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him."
1 John 3:7, 10 "Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother."

When you read these do you consider the task at hand is to PRACTICE SALVATION...or something else?

curious..do you remember how we were talking about how the law does not sanctify on the other thread?

The galatians were justified..by faith, WE ALL KNOW THAT, THEY KNEW THAT, THE JUDAISTIC ONES PROBABLY KNEW THAT, THEY WERE AT THE COUNCIL MEETING IN JERUDSALEM IN ACTS 15, VERSE 15;5.

Ok, having said that, why didn't the Holy Spirit, want them under law, to go to a "higher level"?

3;2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Ok, because the Genesis 26:5 discussion will cause to big an argument, we'll remove Abraham from the "saved by grace/kept Torah list"...let's turn then to David. Was David saved by grace through faith alone? (I'll answer for ya) ABSOLUTELY. Now after David was saved and placed "under grace" did David continue to keep the Torah of G-d? Did David sing it's praises? Did David say "blessed is the man who delights in the Torah of G-d? and blessed the man that walks in the Torah of G-d?"
Yes?
Why in the World would David continue to keep the Torah of G-d and observe it as a guide that teaches him to walk in G-d's ways, after he's already been imputed righteousness, and salvation??
Simple question. Simple answer - because the Torah of G-d teaches believers in G-d how to walk in His ways.

excuse me..why leave Abraham, who was our example? used in Rom 4, and 9, and Gal 3 and 4? lets not act like the bible did not use him , to ward off the torah from the churches.

How could Abraham have torah, when the scriptures say, he did not have it till 430 yerars later? gal 3;17

Do u realize the fact, that if Abraham had the Torah, paul could not..not..use Abe to ward off torah? Otherwise we gentiles, you and me, would have to com ein by judaism TOTALLY TOATLLY, against ALL NT theology!

look here..the law voids the promise, so how could Abe have torah?

it would self destruct, the promise that is, if abe had torah.

4;14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

from scratch said:
My buddy Frogster is just as honest. You are demanding salvation be maintained by the law and if you use Abraham who never had the law according to Moses was not saved in any relationship to the law. That is by the law or maintained by by the law. Romans 4 clearly says by imputation and not obedience to anything. Your argument clearly fails.

thanks bro!
yup...

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Unbelievable. I did not say that the Torah maintains my salvation or anybody elses. You're blind (either innocently or by choice) if you don't see that David was saved by grace through faith alone, and continued to keep Torah. Now if you want to ask me "WHY did David continue to keep Torah?" we can go that route. But the point remains David, and every other believer throughout Scripture continued to keep G-d's Word and walk in His ways, after salvation. It wasn't to maintain their salvation, as if they didn't keep the Sabbath this Saturday they'd lose it, but rather because they loved G-d and wanted to Keep His Word.

as far as the red above..then why did u not finish our conversation? where I tried to talk about how the law does not sanctify..

You left off thinking galatians was ".JUST ABOUT JUSTIFIFCATION"

Remember?

does the law sanctify?

Frogster · Dec 6, 2011

tzadik said:
Look at what Ezekiel 36:26-27 says about the Spirit/Torah relationship...

Yeshua came to show the spirit of the Torah.

you're quoting ezek again, yet you don't think the new cov began yet, and you don't think it is for gentiles!

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