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As far as this goes, I can agree, and I believe that it is the law which Abraham followed, not having the written ordinances given through Moses, and the same law which Paul spoke of:
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2)
...to those [who are] without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those [who are] without law; (1 Cr 9:21)
Which is why:
...if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Gal 5:18)
That is, the written law, not that there is no law for a believer.
May we all be carried away by the spiritLook at what Ezekiel 36:26-27 says about the Spirit/Torah relationship...
Yeshua came to show the spirit of the Torah.
No there are 2 different covenats with different jurisdictions.Interesting points. I agree with most of your argument...cept for the last one--
So what you're saying is that G-d had two different "walks" for believers...
One in obedience to His Instructions (Torah) as David did and spoke highly of throughout Psalms, as Moses did, as Zechariah and Elizabeth did (in Luke 1:6), and a different walk --without having to follow and obey the Instructions of G-d ----after His death...(because now we no longer have to "consciously keep Torah" because we do it "spiritually" by walking in the Spirit?)
Did you even read that post? I highlighted the word also in my quote which you leave out. Why? I ask you as Paul does do you not hear the law? How about Deut 28:1? I don't even need Paul to show this. Do you also throw Moses?Again I never said that I maintain my salvation with keeping Torah. (and that if I didn't keep this next Sabbath holy..i'd lose my salvation)
And you are saying that when John (a believer) tells the believers in his letter that "sin is the transgression of the Law" he doesn't actually mean that sin is the violation of the law but something else....
Paul i believe also confirms this when he says...as a believer that he wouldn't know what "coveting" was if it wasn't for the Law of G-d showing him what is wrong and right.
No there are 2 different covenats with different jurisdictions.
And the word believer(s) strictly applies to Christians unless the context states otherwise. One can't be of the devil and a believer at the same time. LLoJ (bless his heart) already said that Jesus called Torah observing Jews children of the devil.
Don't forget our beloved Saul/PaulOh brother.
"the word believers strictly applies to Christians unless the context states otherwise."
Was Abraham a believer?
Was David a believer?
Was John the Baptist a believer?
Were Zechariah and Elizabeth believers?
Was Moses a believer?
I translated nothing in my post.Starting with the fact that you wrongly translated the verse
You don't understand word goal. When a goal is achieved it is the end of something achieved. In the case of the law it is over just as Luke stated in 16:16 which I quoted to you.the Greek word "telos" does NOT mean end, but rather goal...as in Messiah is the goal of the Torah of righteousness to everyone that believes.
I point you to the explanation Jesus provides after His resurrection - 44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me. LK 24This complies with what Yeshua HIMSELF said in John 5:46-47
Yeshua is the GOAL of all of Torah. Even you agree with that statement.
Your statement disagrees not only with All of Scriptures and His own words, but also with Matthew 5:17.
Again..Yeshua is the GOAL of the Torah.
Is the faith of all the believers in scripture up for question? Like the question asked...Don't forget our beloved Saul/Paul
Btw, isn't there some division within the MJ sect concerning Paul?
http://www.christianforums.com/t7589021-8/#post58443303
[REPORT FREE THREAD] staff/member(MJ members) discussion "Discrediting Paul"
Starting with the fact that you wrongly translated the verseI translated nothing in my post.You don't understand word goal. When a goal is achieved it is the end of something achieved. In the case of the law it is over just as Luke stated in 16:16 which I quoted to you.I point you to the explanation Jesus provides after His resurrection - 44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me. LK 24
Even the demons believe, just don't bow down to themIs the faith of all the believers in scripture up for question? Like the question asked...
Is Abraham a believer?
Is Moses a believer?
Is Isaiah a believer?
Is Daniel a believer?
Is Yeshua a believer?
Is Nicodemus a believer?
Is Timothy a believer?
Is Paul a believer?
There is one thing to believe and live in fear for sins committed. It is quite another to be a believer and live in Him.Even the demons believe, just don't bow down to them
Young) James 2:19 thou--thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons/daimonia <1140> believe and they shudder!
Young) Revelation 9:20 and the rest of men, who were not killed in these plagues, neither did reform from the works of their hands, that they may not bow before the demons/daimonia <1140>, and idols, those of gold, and those of silver, and those of brass, and those of stone, and those of wood, that are neither able to see, nor to hear, nor to walk,
What does Gal 5 say about the life style of the righteous Christian? It says there is no law. It clearly says the life style is not one of sin or wickeness. What does I Tim 1:8-10 say about life styles and who the law applies to? If you demand that the law applies to the Christian, who then is the righteous? If yo claim that the law applies to you what is your confession according to I Tim 1:9-10? How can one be both? I would think that having a lifestyle of but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; is against the law.You're missing my point in all of what I wrote...my point is that if Scripture says PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS --that must mean..that there is more than one explanation or definition of righteousness...UNLESS the Word is instructing us to practice salvation--which in that case makes sense, because keeping of Torah is putting our faith in action. Work your salvation with fear and trembling. Faith without works of faith is dead.
What does Gal 5 say about the life style of the righteous Christian? It says there is no law. It clearly says the life style is not one of sin or wickeness. What does I Tim 1:8-10 say about life styles and who the law applies to? If you demand that the law applies to the Christian, who then is the righteous? If yo claim that the law applies to you what is your confession according to I Tim 1:9-10? How can one be both? I would think that having a lifestyle of but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; is against the law.
Are you not still demanding obedience to the defunct law?You're missing my point in all of what I wrote...my point is that if Scripture says PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS --that must mean..that there is more than one explanation or definition of righteousness...UNLESS the Word is instructing us to practice salvation--which in that case makes sense, because keeping of Torah is putting our faith in action. Work your salvation with fear and trembling. Faith without works of faith is dead.
That would be correct. The covenants have changed.I don't know if I quite follow...
example.
David as a Torah-observant believer, physically kept the feasts of G-d.
Are you saying that a believer (Jewish or Gentile) in Yeshua, after His death, no longer has to physically keep the feasts of G-d?
Or Yeshua himself saying that "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath" and "the Sabbath was made for man" (before His death). Are you saying that Jewish and Gentile believers after His death, no longer have to do good on the Sabbath or keep the Sabbath?
That would be correct. The covenants have changed.
You make reference to Mk 2:27 as all pro law people do and take it out of context. Jesus also said He is the sabbath to those who can understand Mat 11:28-30.
NO! The covenants have changed. There is no obligation for any to the defunct and superceded covenant. Can the Jews continue in their ethnic heritage? Yes! Is it a requirement? No! Galatian 3:28 shows this written by a hardline Pharisee Paul. The is also backed up by Acts 15.We're taking this one step at a time Scratch. Step 1 -JEWS. So are you now admitting that a Jewish believer needs to continue to keep the Torah of G-d, like David continued, AFTER he was saved by grace through faith??
NO! The covenants have changed. There is no obligation for any to the defunct and superceded covenant. Can the Jews continue in their ethnic heritage? Yes! Is it a requirement? No! Galatian 3:28 shows this written by a hardline Pharisee Paul. The is also backed up by Acts 15.
Definitely written after Yeshua's death.Hebrews 4:9 said:"So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."
Grace and the law aren't the same thing. I never said that grace is dismissed. Read Romans 11:32 for the express purpose of the law. This is different from the reason of the law - Rom 4:15. The reason for the law is to legally charge and punish allowing for the purpose of the law - grace to exist.what happened to grace for the believers then? If the Christian is wicked wouldn't they need more grace, just as the law abounds more, so should grace. 70 x 7.. I believe there is salvation for even a wicked repentant Christian...
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