Judging??

[belladonic-haze]

To Tangnefedd

may I ask
1. Why would it be right to judge people who were guilty of the 'crimes' you mention?
2. Who would be in a position to judge those 'criminals'
3. Who woud say what the crimes were? I mean stealing doesnt necessarily hurt other people nor does bestiallity really does it?
4. What about those sexual 'crimes' like adultery and homosexual practice which you didn't mention which I would have thought were more common than the ones you did mention? What if some people didnt think adultery was wrong, especially when for example two couples all agreed to it?
You see if we can't all decide on what the crime is, how can we judge the criminal?

You wrote this to Tangnefedd but I like to react. I am very judgemental towards rapists for instance, because I know what they are capable of (and believe me, I wish I didn't). So if a rapist is killed by someone I will not be sad about it. I will not have a party, but to me it is not a loss to the world. Even if they say they are saved now, I can not bring myself to forgive them in any way.

For homosexuality it is different. I do not consider it a crime. To me it is as normal and healthy sexual behavior as heterosexuality. I guessed by reading Tangnefedd reaction she thinks the same way about it. But let me rephrase that to my words. I am not judgemental about them. I have gay and bisexual friends and I love them with all my heart. I see how happy they are with their spouses/partners and that is prove enough for me that there is nothing wrong with them. I would hate myself if I judged them...judging people for their clothes, religion, skin color or any other way of life is wrong...always! At least that is what Jesus taught me....

if you judge about others do not be surprised if they start to judge you...

God bless you,
Belladonic

 

[brightmorningstar]

To belladonic-haze,
Thanks for your reply and question
However my question to Tangnefedd was why would it be right to judge people because unlike the first two posts Tangnefedd referred specifically to certain crimes then said people who do them should be judged. I have similarly suggested what I believe were some more frequent ‘crimes’ but asked how we decided what were crimes. Since I mentioned homosexual practice Tangnefedd has clearly reacted and objected to that being a crime and so have you. Romans 2 begins therefore we who judge others do the same things (as in Romans 1)



So now because we aren’t able to agree to judge what is wrong or right we are back on the homosexual debate. In many ways I should not have mentioned it but as we cant agree it kind of proves my point

if I judged them...judging people for their clothes, religion, skin color or any other way of life is wrong...always! At least that is what Jesus taught me....

I agree with Jesus does tell us not to judge people, Romans 2 of course and Matthew 7:1 but you said

For homosexuality it is different. I do not consider it a crime. To me it is as normal and healthy sexual behavior as heterosexuality.

For me however it is a crime because scripture, Genesis 19, Leviticus 18 & 20, and Jesus teaching Matthew 19, Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 6:9-, 1 Timothy 1:10, and Romans 1 shows me it is. So I put it to you that when it comes to judgement you look to follow Jesus but when it comes to certain sins or 'crimes' you are liable to make your own decisions about things.

 

[Tangnefedd]

People hide behind the Bible to support their own prejudices. It is not reasonable to condemn homosexuality, a perfectly normal activity between two consenting adults (over 16 in the UK).

Rape, bestiality and sex with a minor is of course to be condemned because the sex is not consensual.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Tangnefedd,

People hide behind the Bbile to support their own prejudices. It is not reasonable to condemn homosexuality, a perfectly normal activity between two consenting adults (over 16 in the UK).

Another post from you without any citations.
And homsoexual practice as its a sin against God because.....
Leviticus 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable"
1 Corinthains 6:9 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"
Romans 1:27 "In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

Romans 2 "You, therefore, have no excuse"
YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE

 

[Tangnefedd]

So it is in the Bible, written so long ago that much of it does not equate to the 21st century! It is high time someone rewrote it leaving out the stuff that by any reasonable non fundie standards is wrong!

 

[Cerberus~]

4. What about those sexual 'crimes' like adultery and homosexual practice (as described in 1 Corinthians 6:9) which you didn't mention which I would have thought were more common than the ones you did mention? What if some people didnt think adultery was wrong, especially when for example two couples all agreed to it?

For sex to be a crime, there has to be a part involved who didn't want to be involved. Flashing, rape, pedophilia, peeping tomery, beastality, necrophilia, ect. Homosexuality, adultery, touching yourself, orgies and fornication though somewhat taboo in our society, and condemned in the Bible are not real legal crimes.

The government has not the business, nor the power to restrict or regulation consensual sex.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Obviously if someone is guilty of murder, stealing, sexual crimes (paedophilia, rape and bestiality) then they will be judged and rightly so. But it is the stupid petty little 'sins' that some fundies dredge up that are not illegal, when judging others gets pathetic imo. Providing no one is being hurt, what one does in the privacy of one's own home is one's own business, and others should keep their noses out!

Conversely, people should not take what they do in the privacy of their home and try to normalize it by reinventing public policy, much less do so and expect others to respect their privacy at the same time.

So it is in the Bible, written so long ago that much of it does not equate to the 21st century! It is high time someone rewrote it leaving out the stuff that by any reasonable non fundie standards is wrong!

I can't believe this. I really hope I am wrong and you are being satirical or joking.(EDIT: Unfortunately, sometimes the truth is not allowed to be told). How can you call yourself a Christian and believe the Word of God should be changed according to your whim. I don't think it is possible.

 

[Cerberus~]

I can't believe this. I really hope I am wrong and you are being satirical or joking. If you really believe this then this is all I have to say: You are a wolf in sheeps clothing. You should remove that little cross from your profile that says 'christian' and replace it with something else, for you have created a god according to your own desires. You are not a christian.

Now, now, we have a rule against that, ya know.

 

[belladonic-haze]

To belladonic-haze,
Thanks for your reply and question
However my question to Tangnefedd was why would it be right to judge people because unlike the first two posts Tangnefedd referred specifically to certain crimes then said people who do them should be judged. I have similarly suggested what I believe were some more frequent ‘crimes’ but asked how we decided what were crimes. Since I mentioned homosexual practice Tangnefedd has clearly reacted and objected to that being a crime and so have you. Romans 2 begins therefore we who judge others do the same things (as in Romans 1)



So now because we aren’t able to agree to judge what is wrong or right we are back on the homosexual debate. In many ways I should not have mentioned it but as we cant agree it kind of proves my point

I agree with Jesus does tell us not to judge people, Romans 2 of course and Matthew 7:1 but you said

For me however it is a crime because scripture, Genesis 19, Leviticus 18 & 20, and Jesus teaching Matthew 19, Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 6:9-, 1 Timothy 1:10, and Romans 1 shows me it is. So I put it to you that when it comes to judgement you look to follow Jesus but when it comes to certain sins or 'crimes' you are liable to make your own decisions about things.

Is sinning criminal? I understand that you believe that. It's in the bible...but that doesn't mean (for me I mean) that I can see it in that way. That also doesn't mean I do not respect God's word. I just disagree on that and some other issues. That is free will, something God gave to me....

But why judge them? I mean, they do not force you to become gay...rape you or do other criminal things to you or any other person. The real sex crimes are always harming someone else.

[BIBLE]
Matthew 7
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

[/BIBLE]

That is my rule...and Like I said I am not perfect. But only God can look someone in the heart and knows the truth.....and only God decides who goes to heaven, and only He can judge.....

I am not perfect, far from that. But trying not to judge is very important to me. One day I will be able to forgive those who have hurt me, cause only that way I will be truly free. And with Jesus teaching I know I will get there

 

[belladonic-haze]

I can't believe this. I really hope I am wrong and you are being satirical or joking.(EDIT: Unfortunately, sometimes the truth is not allowed to be told). How can you call yourself a Christian and believe the Word of God should be changed according to your whim. I don't think it is possible.

Hello, this is judging! You can not do this. Not here in my thread. Keep it nice, please! I am a Christian too and...ahem......I am talking about judging here. Why does it always end up in a discussion about homosexuality? People are being judge for so much more, like skin color, hair color clothing, looks and so on........

 

[KarateCowboy]

Hello, this is judging! You can not do this. Not here in my thread. Keep it nice, please! I am a Christian too and...ahem......I am talking about judging here. Why does it always end up in a discussion about homosexuality? People are being judge for so much more, like skin color, hair color clothing, looks and so on........

So by your judgement, I am a judge? How are we to uphold justice? If someone murders my friend should I say "I am not to judge"? How absurd. The moral of the verses you are quoting is to judge fairly and impartially, not to judge at all.

BTW, the reason why you see it always turning to homosexuality is because you have people like Tangnefedd always proselytizing about it like a bunch of demons. You know what you said about 'being nice'? That's exactly what they want. Let us be nice and placated while they go work their defilement. Anyway, I'm done here.

 

[MERCY@GRACE]

Obviously if someone is guilty of murder, stealing, sexual crimes (paedophilia, rape and bestiality) then they will be judged and rightly so. But it is the stupid petty little 'sins' that some fundies dredge up that are not illegal, when judging others gets pathetic imo. Providing no one is being hurt, what one does in the privacy of one's own home is one's own business, and others should keep their noses out!

I've only been on this forum a short period of time, but by now I can pretty much guess what your response will be to 99% of the topics. I've heard it said that Christians are the most judgemental ppl around.....I'd have to say those that hold a strong dislike for christians (or as you call em fundies) rank right up there w/ some of the most judgemental.

 

[belladonic-haze]

So by your judgement, I am a judge? How are we to uphold justice? If someone murders my friend should I say "I am not to judge"? How absurd. The moral of the verses you are quoting is to judge fairly and impartially, not to judge at all.

BTW, the reason why you see it always turning to homosexuality is because you have people like Tangnefedd always proselytizing about it like a bunch of demons. You know what you said about 'being nice'? That's exactly what they want. Let us be nice and placated while they go work their defilement. Anyway, I'm done here.

Well, I would love to hurt my rapists, but I don't because I am not a judge and I am not allowed to break the law. I also find it interesting that, if someone is disagreeing with verses in the bible they are considered bad or not Christians. That is idiotic. You don't know the person. You just read the words on the screen....I said; Ahem....I am writing a thread about judging.....next time I will say; Ahem...maybe I should put my foot in my mouth....LOL

Anyway; I am talking about judging in general. Let's keep this simple.

Why judge someone because of the way he/she looks, lives or what religion they have. That is what is happening in this world today. We all know better then our next door neighbor and judge him/her because they are not the same skin color or have the same religion or have a different lifestyle. We all judge murderers, rapists and so on. That is what we all do.....if I hear that someone raped and murder a child I judge him and sentence him in my fantasy.....heck, we are only human. So common, start talking abot this with the little differences we have. Why say that someone eats too much if he/she is build bigger....it could come from medication, or lack of exercise because they have a physical condition that makes them not able to exercise....or even a mental condition. Why judge someone who is muslim and compare him/her with terrosist, just because they say they are muslim.....Why judge someone who sits in a wheelchair and stands up to go to a restroom in a restaurant. Not all people in wheelchairs are paralized (I have seen these things happen to friends of me...)

THAT is the real challenge....why judge someone you do not know?

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Tangnefedd,

So it is in the Bible, written so long ago that much of it does not equate to the 21st century! It is high time someone rewrote it leaving out the stuff that by any reasonable non fundie standards is wrong!

I think you have been rumbled, your original point seems to have been a flamer and you want to promote gay and lesbian issues. Your original post

Obviously if someone is guilty of murder, stealing, sexual crimes (paedophilia, rape and bestiality) then they will be judged and rightly so. But it is the stupid petty little 'sins' that some fundies dredge up that are not illegal,

didn’t need to mention specific sexual crimes and neither did my reply, but Biblically Romans 2 says we shouldn’t judge others for doing those things in Romans 1 which inlcudes a specific sexual sin. As I don’t think you have a problem with, theft, murder, paedophilia, rape and bestiality, nor I suggest deceit, malice, gossip, slanderer and arrogance, your claim that the Bible needs to be re-written in this case rests on your objection to homosexual practice being a sin. And yet judgement is the focus of the OP and sadly for you, you can’t avoid those things being judged in the discussion when Christians have the Bible as the word of God.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To Cerberus,

For sex to be a crime, there has to be a part involved who didn't want to be involved.

I would differ from you on this as I would say the Christian view is as for example 1 Corinthians 6:18 “Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.”

 

[brightmorningstar]

To belladonic-haze,

Is sinning criminal?

That’s a whole different discussion and as Tangnefedd first mixed 'sexual crimes' and 'sin' in the same post that would have been a better time and poster to have addressed yoru question to. Both I would say are disobedience.

The real sex crimes are always harming someone else.

Sorry but I would disagree as my previous post shows this not to be the case ... 1 Corinthians 6:18

But why judge them? I mean, they do not force you to become gay...rape you or do other criminal things to you or any other person.

but I am not judging anyone. I am not judging the thief, only judging that Jesus teaches us theft is wrong, (Matthew 15), I am not judging the heterosexual, only that sex outside marriage is wrong, I am not judging the homosexual, only that homosexual sex is wrong (1 Corinthians 5-7)according to the teaching of Jesus through the New Testament apostles and disciples.
What Romans 2 tells us is not to judge anyone. Romans 2 show us that to judge people for faults is to be a hypocrite because we all fall short, If you won a race and a gold medal would I be judging you if I said you had done well? The Matthew 7 means nothing if we don’t know what the plank or the speck is. Unless we know what a speck or a plank is, we cant see it let alone remove it from our brother’s eye or ours.
So Matthew 7 is no different from Romans 2 except that in Romans 2 Paul refers specifically to a particular speck and plank that some refuse to acknowledge.


Nothing to do with judging anyone; just all to do with judging what is right and what is wrong.

 

[belladonic-haze]

Nothing to do with judging anyone; just all to do with judging what is right and what is wrong.

I understand what you are saying. But that is the difficulty of this discussion; who decides what is right and wrong? You? I? God? Allah? Bush? the Judge? the Dalai Lama, Gandhi?

See, we all know the difference between right and wrong (black and white) but what about the grey area? Is that different between cultures? And are we then allowed to judge what is right and wrong??

Just thinking out loud here.....

 

[brightmorningstar]

To belladonic-haze,

I understand what you are saying. But that is the difficulty of this discussion; who decides what is right and wrong? You? I? God? Allah? Bush? the Judge? the Dalai Lama, Gandhi?
See, we all know the difference between right and wrong (black and white) but what about the grey area? Is that different between cultures? And are we then allowed to judge what is right and wrong??



Just thinking out loud here.....

Thanks. Firstly your comment was But why judge them? So my reply addressed the point that I don’t judge ‘them’, I just try to judge what is right according to Christ.

Secondly as I am a Christian and believer and follower of Christ Jesus, I believe Jesus Christ is Lord, He and His words are the truth, the way and the life. I would expect all Christians to believe Christ is the truth rather than you or I or Ghandi. This is what I know Christians around the world believe regardless of their culture or colour of their skin.

 

[belladonic-haze]

To belladonic-haze,

Thanks. Firstly your comment was But why judge them? So my reply addressed the point that I don’t judge ‘them’, I just try to judge what is right according to Christ.

Secondly as I am a Christian and believer and follower of Christ Jesus, I believe Jesus Christ is Lord, He and His words are the truth, the way and the life. I would expect all Christians to believe Christ is the truth rather than you or I or Ghandi. This is what I know Christians around the world believe regardless of their culture or colour of their skin.

I guess I am not as sure as you are. I love Jesus and I try to live by His teachings as good as I can. I am only human . But that doesn't mean I hold the truth in my hand because I am a Christian.

What is the truth anyway.....it is in the eye of the beholder. I'll bet a lot of others disagree with the Christian view of life i.e. atheists, agnostics, hindus, buddhists muslims and so on and so on.

I only know a truth that is right for me; to respect love and feel compassion for every living being as much as I can. And believe me, I can not find any respect or compassion in my heart and soul for i.e. rapists or people that kill baby seals for their fur or.......
Jesus could do it. And Buddha as well.....but like I said; I am only human. I guess there is only one who knows the truth; God or whatever humans call Him. And even then I know a lot of people who disagree; atheists . But who is right or wrong on that matter, I would not know. I only know that most humans do not live according the 10 commandments, even Christians or muslims (Muslims have such commandments too) and if you look at the Buddhists they do not differ in their teachings from the 10 commandments......... The three main things that you find in religions are respect, compassion and love....and that is hard enough to do as a simple and imperfect human being.

 

[brightmorningstar]

To belladonic-haze,

I guess I am not as sure as you are. I love Jesus and I try to live by His teachings as good as I can. I am only human .

I think you are right that’s exactly what I try and do … as best I can

But that doesn't mean I hold the truth in my hand because I am a Christian.

Well my point was that Jesus is the truth, so the more Jesus lives in us by His Spirit and word 1 Corinthians 2:13, Ephesians 1:13, John 6:53, 14 & 15, Galatians 2:5, 2 Timothy 2:25, 2 Peter 1:12, and of course 1 John 4:6 then the more I think we have the truth in us as Christians and we grow more and more in truth as we are lead by the Spirit to live out the word. Don’t you think so?

What is the truth anyway.....it is in the eye of the beholder. I'll bet a lot of others disagree with the Christian view of life i.e. atheists, agnostics, hindus, buddhists muslims and so on and so on.

I thought beauty was in the eye of the beholder. In fact Pontius Pilate asked "What is truth?" directly after Jesus had told him "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."