Judging the Fruit

[Introverted1293]

We are constantly saying we should judge the fruit in a person's life to judge they are really Christians. That is what the Bible teaches, therefore I don't argue with that. But sometimes that judgment can go a bit too far. I keep hearing Christians saying "well, if you were a true Christian, you wouldn't swear; or if you were a true Christian, you would go to church; or if you were a true Christian, you would not be so depressed." The question is, how do you know? I have read the Bible and the Bible does not say that people who have the Holy Spirit are not going to be subject to fleshly feelings. But that is what it seems like Christians are saying. In fact, the Bible says our fleshly feelings will still be there along with Godly feelings.

What right do Christians have to tell someone that they are not a true Christian when the person is trying to develop their relationship with God? So, the question is, when we make judgments on the state of salvation, is our judgments more about us, or is our judgments being influence by the Holy Spirit? Are we simply trying to insult that person?

People who have the Holy Spirit are still going to be depressed. People who have the Holy Spirit may still not go to church due to the fact that they struggle making friends. People who have the Holy Spirit may not always smile, in fact, they may frown a lot due to depression. They may hate physical contact with the human race to protect themselves.

But people who have the Holy Spirit desire to turn away from sin, so they can maintain their relationship with God, because God is their best friend or their only friend. People who have the Holy Spirit desire to read the Word.

But they are still subject to human emotions and depressions and anxiety.

I do not know if I have the Holy Spirit, but I do not desire to go to church or have relationships with human beings due to hurt and pain. I am rejecting people. This does not mean I am rude to them. I follow 1 Corinthians 13, but I still keep my distance. I don't see anything wrong with that.

But my desire is to turn from sin and have a relationship with God because he is the only thing that matters.

I do not desire to go to church, even though I have been invited to go to church. People have said, "well, that proves you do not have the Holy Spirit." How do you know? You read letters that Paul wrote to the Church, and they were all subject to human emotions, and yet they were still Christians. We look at someone and see their flaws and say "well, you are not a true, because you have this flaw or that flaw."

I am extremely depressed and I do not like people any more. Does that mean I should treat them with hate, absolutely not!!! The Bible tells what love is and I need to follow that. The reason I need to follow 1 Corinthians 13 is so I can maintain my relationship with God. I do not want to upset Him.

But I can not trust people. This is just the way that it is. Telling someone that they can not be true Christians because of this or that is their form of truth.

People who have the Holy Spirit are still going to deal with hurt and pain and scars. People who have the Holy Spirit are going to stop trusting other people.

The point is, I wish Christians would stop acting like as though a person who has the Holy Spirit would not have problems and flaws. Read what Paul wrote to the Church. They had the problems, and yet they had the Holy Spirit.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't believe that we ought to judge the salvation of others. Only God has that right. That is the part that says "judge not, lest ye be judged".

We can know if a person is false and should not follow their teaching by their fruit. And we ought to judge our own fruit.

But I don't know of anywhere we are told to actively judge the salvation of others within the full context.

So I agree with you that no one ought to be saying, "if you were really a Christian, you wouldn't do xyz".

At the absolute most, if we are truly concerned for someone and speaking in love, we could exhort them to examine themselves to see if they are truly following Christ, because of xyz behavior. All the while doing so in fear, knowing that we too are subject to potential slipping, and taking care to our own selves. People rarely approach it in that way though - but that's the only way it can be right. And if they are eager to point out anyone's sins, their own hearts are not right to do so.

 

[Serving Zion]

We are constantly saying we should judge the fruit in a person's life to judge they are really Christians. That is what the Bible teaches, therefore I don't argue with that. But sometimes that judgment can go a bit too far. I keep hearing Christians saying "well, if you were a true Christian, you wouldn't swear; or if you were a true Christian, you would go to church; or if you were a true Christian, you would not be so depressed." The question is, how do you know? I have read the Bible and the Bible does not say that people who have the Holy Spirit are not going to be subject to fleshly feelings. But that is what it seems like Christians are saying. In fact, the Bible says our fleshly feelings will still be there along with Godly feelings.

What right do Christians have to tell someone that they are not a true Christian when the person is trying to develop their relationship with God? So, the question is, when we make judgments on the state of salvation, is our judgments more about us, or is our judgments being influence by the Holy Spirit? Are we simply trying to insult that person?

People who have the Holy Spirit are still going to be depressed. People who have the Holy Spirit may still not go to church due to the fact that they struggle making friends. People who have the Holy Spirit may not always smile, in fact, they may frown a lot due to depression. They may hate physical contact with the human race to protect themselves.

But people who have the Holy Spirit desire to turn away from sin, so they can maintain their relationship with God, because God is their best friend or their only friend. People who have the Holy Spirit desire to read the Word.

But they are still subject to human emotions and depressions and anxiety.

I do not know if I have the Holy Spirit, but I do not desire to go to church or have relationships with human beings due to hurt and pain. I am rejecting people. This does not mean I am rude to them. I follow 1 Corinthians 13, but I still keep my distance. I don't see anything wrong with that.

But my desire is to turn from sin and have a relationship with God because he is the only thing that matters.

I do not desire to go to church, even though I have been invited to go to church. People have said, "well, that proves you do not have the Holy Spirit." How do you know? You read letters that Paul wrote to the Church, and they were all subject to human emotions, and yet they were still Christians. We look at someone and see their flaws and say "well, you are not a true, because you have this flaw or that flaw."

I am extremely depressed and I do not like people any more. Does that mean I should treat them with hate, absolutely not!!! The Bible tells what love is and I need to follow that. The reason I need to follow 1 Corinthians 13 is so I can maintain my relationship with God. I do not want to upset Him.

But I can not trust people. This is just the way that it is. Telling someone that they can not be true Christians because of this or that is their form of truth.

People who have the Holy Spirit are still going to deal with hurt and pain and scars. People who have the Holy Spirit are going to stop trusting other people.

The point is, I wish Christians would stop acting like as though a person who has the Holy Spirit would not have problems and flaws. Read what Paul wrote to the Church. They had the Holy Spirit, and yet they had the Holy Spirit.

God is love. He who stays in love stays in God and God in him. The problem is that not everyone who believes they have holy spirit in fact has love. So their idea of what holy spirit is, is based upon an erroneous doctrine that enables them to believe that holy spirit is something different than it's reality. (Do a YouTube search for "false spirits invade the church").

Jesus said that because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many would wax cold, and that is what has happened since the 80's, though the momentum has been happening longer than that.

Jesus said that if we have His commandments and keep them, then we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.

So this indicates that indeed, repentance does in fact lead toward love, that is the indwelling of The Holy Spirit - but what you are describing is that some Christians don't want to become holy, they would rather be content with their sin, lawlessness, and so they become the ones described by 1 Timothy 4:1, Matthew 13:30 etc.

How does 1 John 3:6 fit with what you are saying?

 

[Introverted1293]

Edit: I meant to say look at the early church; they had problems, yet they had the Holy Spirit.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Maybe you would like reading about some of the desert Fathers - Holy hermits and such. There were people full of the Holy Spirit who withdrew from society in order to seek God.

As it happens, once they reached a certain level of spiritual maturity, they often (but not always) were put in a position of helping others, and so they did. But many longed for solitude even then.

Your situation might be a bit different, so I'm not suggesting you actually do such a thing. (There is fierce spiritual warfare in it and there are things necessary to prepare and safety nets in our brothers and sisters in Christ to prevent us being misled.) But there are parts of that you might like reading about.

We are not all the same ...

 

[Serving Zion]

Edit: I meant to say look at the early church; they had problems, yet they had the Holy Spirit.

Good point there! The spirit is what compels the heart to manifest into the world (consider Proverbs 4:23, Luke 11:34). So the spirit is separate from the heart, and again from knowledge.

The Holy Spirit produces the agreeable nature - that is, to behave in love with one another that naturally builds itself up in knowledge of the truth (1 Corinthians 13:6, Ephesians 4:15-16), whereas as St. Paul notes in Romans 12:2 "do not be conformed to the pattern of the world, but be transformed through the renewing of the mind", and in Ephesians 2:2-3 he says that the way of the world is to respond with wrath rather than love - in this way smashing and tearing down all opposition by power and might (Ecclesiastes 8:9, Proverbs 16:25).

Love and growth in unity through longsuffering and faithfulness is what The Holy Spirit produces, but of course when St. Peter has come from a Jewish background, he has an expectation of nobility that is a godliness that doesn't flow from the mentality of the gentiles (his society always regarded them as unclean - just as we might observe the type of filth of the demoniac in Mark 5 in some people of the world today - there are various degrees of uncleanness, and in those days, the Jewish people observed that a certain cleanliness was next to godliness - 1 Corinthians 5:1).

Yet when he was convicted by The Holy Spirit that operated through St. Paul to draw from his heart and knowledge, it was love in him, the holy spirit, that enabled him to swallow his pride and to concede that St. Paul had spoken in holy spirit for Messiah's sake (Mark 10:42-43), and in such a way he grew to increase in knowledge and Christ-like character.

It's the same principles at work between Christians of today, if indeed we are born of God and building each other up in love (Ephesians 1:22-23, John 15:4). "This will continue until we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of Ben-Elohim—to mature adulthood, to the measure of the stature of Messiah’s fullness". Ephesians 4:13