Judgement Day

[lamikin]

Except that I was looking for NT comment on the 2nd coming as such. When the NT uses it, it is about the Gospel event.

No, the Gospel event is the first coming.

 

[CryOfALion]

Judgment day for the entire West is in Revelation 17-18.

17 sounds like the Church, and how it lead to founding what is eventual Europe and America (including territories.)

18 sounds like the actual judgment - and identity of the Fallen "queen."

Females, and especially human spiritual relations are represented by churches and/or spiritual alignments: good church/righteousness = virgin, bad church/sinfulness = harlot. Babylon = confusion. Queen is a great woman = great church/spirituality. By implication this fallen queen in 18 is synonymous with the wore of Babylon.

There is only a select culture that lives deliciously, and trades all kinds of goods with the world so much so that the world mourns in remembrance of the wealth exchanged (18:9).

 

[lamikin]

There are about 25 uses.

The ABS Metzger production is the only Greek composite I know of. All the 5000 copies of things are referrenced there, with priority to (Aleph) A, B, C, D and p46 as the most complete in one place.

From now on you need to quote what I asked which you didn't do and it makes it hard to follow what was asked in post #14.

I don't know if you are aware of the fact that (Aleph) A designated Sinaiticus and B designated Vaticanus only represent ......1%........ of the exisitng manuscripts. Metzger himself even admits that..

"Non-Byzantine readings, for example, in the Codex Vaticanus, can be explained from the tendency of Scribes to assimilate and simplify the text." (Jakob Van Bruggen, The Ancient Text of the New Testament ) [Winnipeg: Premier, 1976, pp.30-31.]

Metzger himself even admits about Sinaticus..........

"In the light of such carelessness in transcription, it is not surprising that a good many correctors (as many as nine) have been at work on the manuscript. . .Tischendorf's edition of the manuscript enumerates 14,800 places where some alteration has been made to the text. . .[With] more recent detailed scrutiny of the manuscript. . .by the use of ultra-violent lamp, Milne and Skeat discovered that the original reading in the manuscript was erased. . .[in places].
(Bruce Metzger, Manuscripts of the Greek Bible) [Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1999] pg.77

That he would use it is a conundrum to me. There are about 9000 changes in this text from that of the Majority and Traditional text, amounting to one difference in every verse. It omits some 4000 words from the Gospels, adds 1000, repositions 2000 and alters another 1000. It has approximately 1,500 readings that appear in no other manuscript; this affects nearly 3000 words.

Metzger admits that Vaticanus and Siniaticus do not agree with the majority of manuscripts. (Bruce Metzger, Manuscripts of the Greek Bible) [Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1999] pg.78

Not only do Vaticanus and Siniaticus not agree with the majority of manuscripts they don't even agree with each other. There are 8000 changes in Vaticanus and 9000 changes in Siniaticus and their not the same changes. When their added together, they alter the Majority existing text in about 13,000 places. This is two changes for every verse. Together they omit 4000 words, add 2000, transpose 3500, and modify 2000.

The majority of Bible scholars believe they are depraved and terribly corrupt.

I'll have to make this it for today, will answer the rest of your post later.

 

[Rev20]

Does anyone believe that America figures into this prophecy?

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. Zech.12:9

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the Lord go forth and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. Zech.14:2-4

That passage in Zechariah is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century. The last battle will be Satan going after the church by deceiving all the nations:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." -- Rev 20:7-9​

The breadth of the earth means the entire earth, the camp of the Saints is the holy temple, and the beloved city is New Jerusalem, both "headquartered" on heavenly mount Sion:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." -- Eph 2:19-22​

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. . ." -- Heb 12:22-24​

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner," -- 1Pet 2:6-7​

It is a spiritual war: a war of deception.


.

 

[lamikin]

There are about 25 uses.

The ABS Metzger production is the only Greek composite I know of. All the 5000 copies of things are referrenced there, with priority to (Aleph) A, B, C, D and p46 as the most complete in one place.

ch 20+ refers to the Rev of course. Some of us believe the marriage syncs with Eph 5 and was understood to be current to the apostles times, but then at the end of time comes Rev 20, matching Mt24B and is worldwide.

Descriptions vs events. Rev 22:1 mentions living water and uses the language from Zech 14:8. It is not an "event" happening so much as a description of what that age is like. There are descriptions of the Son of Man that are like that.

How can you NOT see two comings? All those passages quoted about the Gospel mix seamlessly with things we normally think of as 2nd coming. There are even some I would say are abuot the DofJ. Striking the shepherd, the betrayal, and the piercing are all used by the NT about the Gospel. The king on the foal is back in ch 9.

My bad on this one, since I thought you were referring to . .2. . Second Comings. There are those that think there will be 2 making 3 comings of Jesus all together.

Slow down on the peaceful and vanquishing bits. 1, show me 'dwelling peacefully' anywhere in the book, and 2, 2/3 of Israel perish in 14:2-3. They seem to be in close sequence too. It is also the time when living water flows all year round. This is not normal for Judea. I think it is a figure of speech.

All you have to do is read Zech.chapters 12-14 and you will see that God will do away with Israel's enemies and they will live in peace, and like I said that has not happened yet.

2, 2/3 of Israel perish in 14:2-3

What is it about this you do not understand? This is the Tribulation when transgressors will be purged from the land.

It is also the time when living water flows all year round. This is not normal for Judea. I think it is a figure of speech.

No it's not a figure of speech. Jesus told the woman at the well He would give her living water if she would believe in Him. You even said as much at the top of your post.

Rev 22:1 mentions living water and uses the language from Zech 14:8. It is not an "event" happening so much as a description of what that age is like. There are descriptions of the Son of Man that are like that.

Like the Rev I have a very hard time basing anything on Zech that is not crystal clear elsewhere. I would never suggest starting any doctrine there.[/quote]

 

[lamikin]

That passage in Zechariah is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in the first century. The last battle will be Satan going after the church by deceiving all the nations:

In my OP I quoted Zech.14:2-4. If as you say that refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in first century, why wasn't such a dynamic event as the Mt. of Olives splitting in half and half going to the north and half going to the south creating a great valley between them ever recorded?

Hm?

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." -- Rev 20:7-9

The breadth of the earth means the entire earth, the camp of the Saints is the holy temple, and the beloved city is New Jerusalem, both "headquartered" on heavenly mount Sion:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." -- Eph 2:19-22
​

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. . ." -- Heb 12:22-24
​

"Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner," -- 1Pet 2:6-7
​

It is a spiritual war: a war of deception.


.

 

[Rev20]

In my OP I quoted Zech.14:2-4. If as you say that refers to the destruction of Jerusalem in first century, why wasn't such a dynamic event as the Mt. of Olives splitting in half and half going to the north and half going to the south creating a great valley between them ever recorded?

It is figurative language, like most of Zechariah (like most of the prophesies, generally.) For example, would you interpret 13:7 literally? You might, if Christ had not explained it. But now you have no excuse.

By the way, the old testament that Christ and his disciples quoted frequently, the Septuagint (LXX), has this translation for verse 14:3

"And the Lord shall go forth, and fight with those Gentiles as when he fought in the day of war." -- Zec 14:3 LXX

That changes the entire complexion of 14:1-5.



.

 

[lamikin]

It is figurative language,

Behold the day of the Lord cometh, Zech.14:1

The phrase "in that day" occurs no less than sixteen times in the 12-14 chapters of Zech, signifying the Day of the Lord or as 14:1 says "the day of the Lord cometh", signifying the Day of the Lord, the future period when the Lord will publically manifest His powers in delivering Israel from her foes and establishing her in the promised millenial Kingdom.

They will flee to the valley of the mountians for sanctuary

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah the king of Judah Zech.14:5

Pretty precise to be figuative.

 

[parousia70]

Behold the day of the Lord cometh, Zech.14:1

The phrase "in that day" occurs no less than sixteen times in the 12-14 chapters of Zech, signifying the Day of the Lord or as 14:1 says "the day of the Lord cometh", signifying the Day of the Lord, the future period when the Lord will publically manifest His powers in delivering Israel from her foes and establishing her in the promised millenial Kingdom.

14:8
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.

Living Waters are a present reality in Christ. Christ himself claimed to have fulfilled Zech 14:8 in His earthly Ministry.(Jn 7:38)

We are not still waiting for Zech 14:8 to be fulfilled.

They will flee to the valley of the mountians for sanctuary

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah the king of Judah Zech.14:5

Pretty precise to be figuative.

They Did Flee, just as Jesus instructed them to flee when the saw "Jerusalem encompassed by Armies", they fled to Pella in the valley of the mountains.
Literally Fulfilled.

 

[Rev20]

Behold the day of the Lord cometh, Zech.14:1

The phrase "in that day" occurs no less than sixteen times in the 12-14 chapters of Zech, signifying the Day of the Lord or as 14:1 says "the day of the Lord cometh", signifying the Day of the Lord, the future period when the Lord will publically manifest His powers in delivering Israel from her foes and establishing her in the promised millenial Kingdom.

They will flee to the valley of the mountians for sanctuary

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah the king of Judah Zech.14:5

Pretty precise to be figuative.

When do you think the day of the Lord occurred? Christ was anointed and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom in the last days (Heb 1:1-2); and the day of Pentecost occurred in the last days. Read this passage by Peter very carefully:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." -- Acts 2:17-21​

Would logic dictate that Peter was telling us the following?

1. The Day of Pentecost: Spirit poured out onto all flesh - about 30 AD
2. Everyone can call on the name of the Lord to be saved - about 33 AD
3. The Great and Notable Day of the Lord - 2014 AD +

It is written that the first two events occurred in the last days. Now if the third event occurred 2000 years later, then the last days must be at least 2000 years long, and is therefore a meaningless prophetic term.


.

 

[TPeterY]

That Day will come to pass when the Lord puts the enemies of Israel under her.

Acts 2:35 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
until I put your enemies under your power.



.

 

[lamikin]

It is figurative language, like most of Zechariah (like most of the prophesies, generally.) For example, would you interpret 13:7 literally? You might, if Christ had not explained it. But now you have no excuse.

By the way, the old testament that Christ and his disciples quoted frequently, the Septuagint (LXX), has this translation for verse 14:3

"And the Lord shall go forth, and fight with those Gentiles as when he fought in the day of war." -- Zec 14:3 LXX

That changes the entire complexion of 14:1-5.



.

"And the Lord shall go forth, and fight with those Gentiles as when he fought in the day of war." -- Zec 14:3 LXX

So what are you interpreting this to say? with means the Gentiles are not foes but are with the Lord? That's pushing it a bit since (v.5b) says the Lord shall come with all the saints. Are you trying to say that the Gentile nations are the Lords saints?


OH PLEASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There has never been any tangible proof that there ever was an

LXX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[lamikin]

14:8
And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.

Living Waters are a present reality in Christ. Christ himself claimed to have fulfilled Zech 14:8 in His earthly Ministry.(Jn 7:38)

We are not still waiting for Zech 14:8 to be fulfilled.



They Did Flee, just as Jesus instructed them to flee when the saw "Jerusalem encompassed by Armies", they fled to Pella in the valley of the mountains.
Literally Fulfilled.

When they fled during the time "Jerusalem was encompassed by Armies" which I'm assuning your referring to 70AD, why history never says a thing about the light diminishing. . .

(v.6,7)........And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.


Coupled with the fact that the Mt. of Olives is still in tact to this day, what you'r saying is not the possible senario.

 

[parousia70]

When they fled during the time "Jerusalem was encompassed by Armies" which I'm assuning your referring to 70AD, why history never says a thing about the light diminishing. . .

(v.6,7)........And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.


Coupled with the fact that the Mt. of Olives is still in tact to this day, what you'r saying is not the possible senario.

Yet the fact remains that Zech 14:8 is a present day fulfilled reality, in the person of Jesus Christ.

That's a problem for your view.
How do you reconcile it?

 

[lamikin]

Yet the fact remains that Zech 14:8 is a present day fulfilled reality, in the person of Jesus Christ.

That's a problem for your view.
How do you reconcile it?

What your missing is the point that Zech. 12-14 has to do with Israel being saved from its enemies by the person Jesus Christ and living in peace which to this day has never happened.

 

[lamikin]

The footnotes in my Bible say that a recent geological survey (c.1988) in the area has verified the presence of a prominent fault running east and west throught the southern section of the Mt. of Olives.

Found a site that shows the fault lines of the Middle East. Third row down is one that says Zech.14:4 and shows where the fault is located.

fault lines of the middle east - Yahoo Image Search Results

How wonderful to see proof that the cleaving in half of the Mt. of Olives will one day be a reality.

 

[parousia70]

Jesus himself claimed to have fulfilled Zech 14:8 in His earthly ministry.

I get that that is a problem for your view, but ignoring it won't make it go away.

 

[parousia70]

How wonderful to see proof that the cleaving in half of the Mt. of Olives will one day be a reality.

Why would God need to put a fault line there in order to cleave the mount of olives in two?

 

[lamikin]

Why would God need to put a fault line there in order to cleave the mount of olives in two?

God used the things of the earth in the plagues against Egypt so why wouldn't he use a naturally occuring geographical one?

It just confirms Zech.14:4

 

[lamikin]

Jesus himself claimed to have fulfilled Zech 14:8 in His earthly ministry.

I get that that is a problem for your view, but ignoring it won't make it go away.

Because Jesus is what He is doesn't mean prophecy has been fulfilled.