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logos65

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According to Halley's Bible Handbook, Origen, a early church leader said that Jude's statement is a reference to a passage in the apocrypha book, "The Assumption of Moses."

Also Josephus says God hid Moses body lest it be made an idol. Possibly Satan wanted it to tempt Israel into idolatry.
 
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wildboar

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There are a couple of different versions of the "Assumption of Moses" or more accurately "The Testament of Moses" that seems to be the source of this story and was part of a body of generally accepted stories in the early church. Many translations say something like "But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him." But it could also be translated and is better supported both by the context and the story that it is drawn from "did not dare to accuse the devil of slander."
 
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BigNorsk

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Hard to know the source. For instance the books that mention might be the source, but just as or even more likely is they took it from someplace else. I don't know anyone had gotten his Doctorate for finding the orginal source. Most likely a dozen conflicting ideas have all been given doctorates.

Welcome to higher criticism.

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Iscariot

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I do find it funny that Jude again makes reference to another aprocriphal book. (I actually posted in a different thread about Jude and his quoting from the Book of Enoch in verse 14) Sounds like the author of the Book of Jude was well versed in Pseudepigrapha and Apocryphal writtings, which could be evedence of the confusion in the early church over which books were consitered cannon and which were not.
 
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2 King

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I gave my opinon on another thread.


Originally Posted by BreadAlone
2.) the fact that it brings up the story of Moses' body. But, I have faith that God keeps His word pure.
(Click on the Red Scriptures for links to that scripture:))

when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses;
which some understand literally of the fleshly and natural body of Moses, buried by the Lord himself, partly out of respect to him; and partly, as some think, lest the Israelites should be tempted to an idolatrous worship of him; but rather it was to show that the law of Moses was to be abolished and buried by Christ, never to rise more: and they think that this dispute was either about the burying of his body, or the taking of it up again; Satan on the one hand insisting upon the taking of it up, in order to induce the Israelites to worship him, and Michael, on the other hand, opposing it, to prevent this idolatry; but then the difficulty is, where Jude should have this account, since the Scriptures are silent about it. Some have thought that he took it out of an apocryphal book, called "the Ascension of Moses", as Origen , which is not likely; others, that he had it by tradition, by which means the Apostle Paul came by the names of the Egyptian magicians Jannes and Jambres; and some passages are referred to in some of their writings , as having some traces of this dispute; but in them the discourse is not concerning the body, but the soul of Moses; not concerning burying or taking up of his body, when buried, but concerning the taking away of his soul, when he was alive; which none of the angels caring to undertake, at length Samael, the chief of devils, did, but without success, wherefore God took it away with a kiss himself: besides, the apostle produces this history as a thing well known; nor is it reasonable to suppose that such an altercation should be between Michael, and the devil, on such an account; or that it was in order to draw Israel into idolatry on the one hand, and on the other hand to prevent it; since never was the custom of the Israelites to worship their progenitors or heroes; nor did they seem so well disposed to Moses in his lifetime; nor was there any necessity of taking up his body, were they inclined to give him honour and worship; yea, the sight of his dead body would rather have prevented than have encouraged it: but this is to be understood figuratively; and reference is had to the history in (Zechariah 3:1,2) ; as appears from the latter part of this verse: some think the priesthood of Christ is intended, which was the end, the sum and substance, of the law of Moses; and seeing that Joshua, the high priest, was a type of Christ, and the angel of the Lord contended with Satan about him, he might be said to dispute with him about the body of Moses; but this sense makes a type of a type, and Christ to contend about himself; besides, this should rather be called the body of Christ than of Moses, others think that the temple of the Jews is meant about the rebuilding of which the contention is thought to be; and which may be called the body of Moses, as the church is called the body of Christ; though it should be observed, that the temple is never so called, and that not the place where the church meets, but the church itself, is called the body of Christ: but it is best of all to understand it of the law of Moses, which is sometimes called Moses himself, (John 5:45) (Acts 15:21) (21:21) (2 Corinthians 3:15) ; and so the body of Moses, or the body of his laws, the system of them; just as we call a system of laws, and of divinity, such an one's body of laws, and such an one's body of divinity: and this agrees with the language of the Jews, who say , of statutes, service,

purification… that they are (hrwth ypwg) , "the bodies of the law"; and so of Misnic treatises, as those which concern the offerings of turtle doves, and the purification of menstruous women, that they are

(ypwg) , "the bodies" of the traditions , that is, the sum and substance of them: so the decalogue is said to be "the body of the Shema", or "Hear, O Israel", (Deuteronomy 6:4) , so Clemens of Alexandria says, that there are some who consider the body of the Scriptures, the words and names, as if they were, (to swma tou mwsewv) , "the body of Moses". Now the law of Moses was restored in the time of Joshua the high priest, by Ezra and Nehemiah. Joshua breaks some of these laws, and is charged by Satan as guilty, who contended and insisted upon it that he should suffer for it; so that this dispute or contention might be said to be about the body of Moses, that is, the body of Moses's law, which Joshua had broken; in which dispute Michael, or the angel of the Lord, even the Lord Jesus Christ himself,
 
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BigNorsk

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I do find it funny that Jude again makes reference to another aprocriphal book. (I actually posted in a different thread about Jude and his quoting from the Book of Enoch in verse 14) Sounds like the author of the Book of Jude was well versed in Pseudepigrapha and Apocryphal writtings, which could be evedence of the confusion in the early church over which books were consitered cannon and which were not.


Well, I would say that could easily be reading something that isn't there. For instance is a pastor on Sunday morning quotes from a book does that mean he's quoting it as scripture? He might even talk of the author as an authority and how the book is right, but he isn't speaking of it as scripture.

To assume because there are quotes that the church was therefore confused really is calling for conclusions not in evidence.

For instance the Book of Jasher (book of the upright) mentioned in 2 Samuel 1:18. The incident is even pointing to the book as proof that what the author is saying is true. Yet, I'm not aware of anyone that's really made the case the Book of Jashar was ever taken as scripture by the Hebrews.

Some people think one of the three medieval books that have been found claiming to be the book of Jasher are, but really, chances are none of them are the true book. Much like most likely the Book of Enoch is not a writing nor necessarily even the writing referred to in the bible.

Lots of fakes over the years. Some fooled some of the people...
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LionDog1

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Basically I am interested in the history of the verse concerning Michael and Satan disputing the bones of Moses.
I was wondering where Jude got the information for this verse. I have looked in the Bible for it but cant find it. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 9

So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. Deuteronomy 34:5-6

He was buried in a cave in a ravine or a gorge in a valley of Pisgah in the land of Moab, he was buried by "Angels" as ancient traditions qualify. The "Angels" hid the body of Moses so that his body could not be used by superstitious pilgrims or use for idolatrous veneration, in after ages. This is the most probable conclusion.
:liturgy:
 
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freeport

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Basically I am interested in the history of the verse concerning Michael and Satan disputing the bones of Moses.
I was wondering where Jude got the information for this verse. I have looked in the Bible for it but cant find it. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

It is not said where that verse comes from.

It is not from Zechariah 4, however, as some think.

But may be related.

Zechariah 3

Clean Garments for the High Priest

1 Then he showed me Joshua [a] the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan [b] standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" 3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes."
Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you."
5 Then I said, "Put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the LORD stood by.
6 The angel of the LORD gave this charge to Joshua: 7 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you a place among these standing here.
8 " 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes [c] on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.


Because Joshua is shown to be signifying Jesus.


Zech 6


9 The word of the LORD came to me: 10 "Take silver and gold from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon. Go the same day to the house of Josiah son of Zephaniah. 11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jehozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the LORD, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.' 14 The crown will be given to Heldai, [d] Tobijah, Jedaiah and Hen [e] son of Zephaniah as a memorial in the temple of the LORD. 15 Those who are far away will come and help to build the temple of the LORD, and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. This will happen if you diligently obey the LORD your God."


The Branch is clearly identified in Scriptures as the Messiah, Jesus. Joshua actually means "Jesus" or "God saves".
 
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ittarter

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Well, I would say that could easily be reading something that isn't there. For instance is a pastor on Sunday morning quotes from a book does that mean he's quoting it as scripture? He might even talk of the author as an authority and how the book is right, but he isn't speaking of it as scripture.

A pastor is not infallible. According to many Christians, the "authors" or writers of the Bible were infallible. It's not a fair comparison.

This issue comes up a lot. The problem is the possibility of a transference of authority. Why does a man in the blessed state of divine "infallibility" suddenly recall a favorite author or book? Why would he need to quote it? Does it substantiate or strengthen his argument? If he's already God's mouthpiece, how could it? And if it doesn't, then what on earth is the purpose of the citation?

Of course, one might suppose that back when Jude (or whoever) wrote such and such a letter, he didn't realize that what he was writing was eventually going to be considered "gospel truth." It seems so obvious from an anthropological perspective, and yet, there's a lot of resistance to the idea...

For instance the Book of Jasher (book of the upright) mentioned in 2 Samuel 1:18. The incident is even pointing to the book as proof that what the author is saying is true. Yet, I'm not aware of anyone that's really made the case the Book of Jashar was ever taken as scripture by the Hebrews.
Of course. Not enough evidence to prove or disprove. But there's no good reason it couldn't have been, either. And that in itself is significant.

Much like most likely the Book of Enoch is not a writing nor necessarily even the writing referred to in the bible.
What?! The book of Enoch is real. I'm not sure if I am understanding you correctly here.
 
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freeport

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Basically I am interested in the history of the verse concerning Michael and Satan disputing the bones of Moses.
I was wondering where Jude got the information for this verse. I have looked in the Bible for it but cant find it. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


I should also note there is some excellent, ancient Jewish text on this matter.

n. There is something very like it in Debarim Rabba, sec. ii., fol. 263,1: "Samael, that wicked one, the prince of the satans, carefully kept the soul of Moses, saying: When the time comes in which Michael shall lament, I shall have my mouth filled with laughter. Michael said to him: Wretch, I weep, and thou laughest. Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy, because I have fallen; for I shall rise again: when I sit in darkness, the Lord is my light;

 
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trevorlewthor

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I do find it funny that Jude again makes reference to another aprocriphal book. (I actually posted in a different thread about Jude and his quoting from the Book of Enoch in verse 14) Sounds like the author of the Book of Jude was well versed in Pseudepigrapha and Apocryphal writtings, which could be evedence of the confusion in the early church over which books were consitered cannon and which were not.

Or it could just be evidence that Jude was able to determine what was true from within these books because of other knowledge that he had. Paul quotes from pagan sources in Acts 17 and there is no indication that he saw those pagans as Scripture
 
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freeport

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On Moses being buried and this having something to do with this verse: Jewish tradition has many stories about Moses. Most are false.

Why would Michael the Archangel and the Devil have anything to do with burying the body of Moses, especially when it is stated God Himself buried Moses on the mountain?

The whole point about Moses being buried has nothing to do with this. This is why the Jews can up with these legends.

No, the point is that the ministry of Moses is over and never to come again.

But what of Moses at the resurrection? Therefore, of course I do not mean Moses himself will never come again, for clearly he will. But, the burying of Moses means burying the ministry of condemnation which brought death.

This symbolism was working in tandem with the passing of the torch to Joshua. Joshua did not hit the rock, nor speak wrongly, claiming to be God as Moses did. (Moses was commanded to say 'thus sayeth the Lord, He will bring the water from the rock', but Moses instead said, 'Aaron and I will bring water from the rock.)

Joshua, of course, metaphorically points to Jesus.

Therefore we were to look for a new ministry, and that ministry has come through Jesus Christ.
 
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