Judas was once saved and lost it...

Tellastory · Jul 24, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
What? all OT saints were saved not by the individual being predestined, the plan was predestined that all those who believe would be conformed to the image of Gods Son. The OT saints had to repent and believe in Gods righteousness and the provision he gave. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. hey also had the animal sacrifices which typified that salvation. But many things were hid from them. But they too were hid with God in Christ as Abraham was and others.

Wrong, they were in Christ, they were hid with Christ, and they had the hope in tem also, as we read

"26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Colossians 1:26,27

This "mystery" of Christ in you the hope of glory was there but hidden in mystery. All OT saints had this hope in them as we read

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:16,29

So Abraham as all OT saints had Christ in them. If they did not have Christ in them they would never belong to Him.

They could not have Christ in them if the ransom was not paid yet. Read this;

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

So the O.T. saints had died in faith, not having received the promises as seeking a place in Heaven above which was made possible when Christ had died, descended in the earth to preach to them in prison to lead the captive from captivity.

"...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9

"28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." Galatians 4:28,29)

These verses do not apply to O.T. saints when Jesus had not paid the price for them yet.

First notice in the section you quoted, that you MISSED "We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness." . Jesus would say the same thing to you as you try and tell him noone was born again yet.

And yet Jesus would not say that because He said also that the Son of Man had to be lifted up ( ascended into Heaven as the Son of Man in Heaven ) before believers that believe in Him can be saved by Him as that was when the born again process begins which was at Pentecost.

I did not say they ascended up to heaven.

Well, to say that the O.T. saints were saved before Christ paid the ransom is to infer they were in Heaven. If you meant otherwise, then clarity was needed. As it is, the O.T. saints were not in hell, but yet one has to wonder how they can call them "saved" when they were not in Heaven. Christ came to preach unto the so that by believing in Him; He saves them.

Although Elijah was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot but that's another discussion.

I believe that "heaven" is the upper atmosphere and not the actual Heaven where God dwells since flesh & blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Enoch was taken as well, but I believe both are travelling in time presently to be dumped off to serve as the two witnesses for the great tribulation.

But they were saved in Christ hid with him. The OT saints ate of the Spiritual Rock that followed them and that rock was Chris

"1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Cor 10:1-4)

It is still written that they had all died in faith, not having received the promise yet, but since Christ had preached unto them in prison, they have the Spirit of Christ now.

what? this is your words "officially saved yet". they were saved and salvation is to be in Christ and have him in them. Jesus said to Judas and the others that they were sheep and His disciples sent forth. Jesus also said to Judas that he would have the Spirit of the father speaking in him when needed. You, as many seem to just run from the verses in Matthew 10 and go off into other stuff. Stick with the clear verses in Matthew 10 and let your other views fall to the ground and re arrange your doctrine to line up with truth. I think I may have to start a whole thread about the OT salvation and being born again. Also about the destiny of the unevangelized and how God reaches them.

Explain why the ghost of Samuel was brought up from the earth in 1 Samuel 28th chapter.

Explain why Jesus had to descend first and whom are the captives that He has led from captivity?

You want to hold to Matthew 10th event, but what about John 20th chapter event? And yet in John 14th chapter, the promise of the forever abiding Holy Ghost was to be given when He was no longer with them but had gone to the Father as He began saying so at the beginning of that chapter.

I didnt say they went to heaven yet. I said they were saved, by grace through faith and they all had life.

"1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.2 For by it the elders obtained a good report." Heb 11:1,2

"4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous" Heb 11:4

was Abel a child of God and saved? read 1 John 2: and 3

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible." Heb 11

But your eyes see Jesus said also. They saw because they were born again. Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. But their eyes saw.

Alot of the Jews that crucified Him also saw but did not believe. So not every one that saw Him were born again if you were to apply the promise of the Holy Spirit as being given before He had actually paid that ransom & before He ascended to the Father from where He said He would give that promise from.

You other errors I will have to look at later i have to step out for now. But so much error it takes a long time to wade through it all. It all starts with your wrong understanding that the OT saints were not saved and born again and in Christ.

I believe they died in faith, but they had not received the Spirit of Christ yet until Christ had come to them to preach unto them. If they had the Spirit of Christ, then there would be no need to preach unto them, right? But there was because faith in Christ comes by hearing the Good News about Jesus Christ in order to believe in Him which was the specific requirement to be saved. They knew that the Messiah was coming & God was going to bring them Home to Heaven where the city of God dwells, but now seeing Him face to face in prison, their joy was made full.

They could not be new creatures in Christ to receive the promise of the forever abiding Holy Spirit until the ransom was paid. There was no other way to be "saved".

Tellastory · Jul 24, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Wrong, the baptism with the Holy Ghost is not intial salvation. All the apostles were already saved before the cross John 17:6,8, 12 and then they got the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, power was given to them etc.

And this prayer was said before what event? Before He was betrayed and the remaining disciples had fled. Now any one that denies Him or is ashamed of Him are what?

So explain how they still did not need Jesus as their Saviour afterwards when He had died & risen.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Now... were the disciples saved now, along with doubting Thomas? Nope. Still not yet.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also....10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

The commandments below are the ones to believe in Him repeated over and over again as the requirement for receiving the promise from the Father in Jesus's name of the forever dwelling Holy Ghost.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. ....

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So this is Jesus talking to His disciples long into their ministry with Him and yet Jesus was referring to this promise of salvation as something they had not received yet because He was still with them. By going to Heaven is the only way any believer can be saved by Him in being translated into the kingdom of light.

Colossians 1:13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Jesus as God the Saviour from Heaven is saving all those that believe in Him.

Acts 4:12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

This testimony above for all the believers since Pentecost has to be the same testimony for the remaining disciples & even the O.T. saints.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 9 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Verse 18 is what Jesus had to preached unto the O.T. saints in prison so that by hearing, they believe, & be led by Him from captivity up on earth upon His resurrection until He has ascended into Heaven to give them the promise & thereby moving Paradise, the holding area, from beneathe the earth to Heaven as well.

Though He descended to fill all things, it was upon His ascension after His descension that He filled all things.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

That filling is the permament indwelling Holy Ghost upon their salvation; hence their born again experience.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?....6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.....13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So that promise to Abraham of the seed ( Jesus Christ ) in Whom all nations shall be blessed is how by faith in Jesus Christ is how any one, including Abraham as leading by example of faith & believing in God to be applied towards Jesus Christ specifically is how anyone are heirs as Abraham's seed.

Abraham had to apply faith in Jesus Christ also to be an heir to the promise God given to him about his seed. That is how Abraham is blessed too and why Jesus had to go to that prison to preach unto him & other O.T. saints for them to receive the promise upon His ascension and be heirs to that seed as promised to Abraham of that citizenship in Heaven.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

LoveofTruth · Jul 24, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
What denomination are you ??? I have no idea who is teaching this stuff

I am not part of a man made denomination, the word denomination means to make a name, we see this at the tower of Babel.

and everything I said is biblical and true. Use scripture for correction. Its better.

LoveofTruth · Jul 24, 2015

Tellastory said:
Truth cannot be denied, but if the truth you perceived is going against scripture, then obviously, you are not reading it to be applying it rightly.

What I say does not go against scripture, that has yet to be proven. Most of the time it is misunderstanding, either of terms, or doctrines, or I have found that some only see things naturally and all their judgement is based on their own understanding , the spiritual realities and mysteries are often misunderstood. Like The true Light that ligheth every man that cometh in to the world John 1:9. That Light is in every man since Adam, but not in union with every man until the new birth. This light of the glorious gospel of Christ shines within, and this is the treasure in earthen vessels, that is often hid from men, and it is called Christ in you the hope of glory.

Tellastory said:
Let's be clear about the truth that this below is not specifically talking about Judas Iscariot since it is plural.

Psalm 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. 26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Wrong, Judas is included in that context. We read in Acts 1 that Judas was spoken of in context to that specific Psalm. So who ever else is referred to Judas was one of them as well. This is very clear and the only reason someone would try to avoid the clear contecxt and meaning is because of their bias and doctrinal stance from what they have been told. Because this is a clear rebuke to the OSAS and Calvinist thought. Rather than simple say amen brother that is true and I was believing falsehoods for so long. They dig in and try to defend their position. But in doing this they become more entangled in error...sadly. At least this is from what I have seen.

Tellastory said:
Let us also acknowledge the truth that the book of the living is not the same thing as the book of life. To have their habitation desolate & their tents vacant is referring to the land of the living. It can be applied to Judas Iscariot, but hardly a winning argument about him being written in the actual Book of life. See the other reference for Judas.

I dont agree again, in that book of the living, which is the book of life that Jesus referred to when the ones he sent out were rejoicing that devils were subject unto them. We read that Judas was no longer written with the "righteous". Only the righteus are in that book, not just all living men unrighteous and righteous. That is an error to try and twist it that way as if the book only refers to people alive on earth and not saved.

Tellastory said:
Psalm 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer. 5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. 6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. 7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. 8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
Now this reference above you can definitely say is prophetical towards Judas Iscariot and letting his days be few is blotting him out of the book of the living. May God cause the increase for you to see that.

Judas was an apostle and his bishiopprick was given to another. To be an apostle is a sent one of God. He was also given power and was ordained and sent forth , and was called a sheep sent to the lost sheep. Undeniable evidence. He also obtained part of the ministry. Meaning he was in the power and ministered as a believer.

Tellastory said:
I submit something that I can only hope God will help you to see, but if a professing believer does not depart from iniquity by looking to Him to overcome ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ), then they will be punished accordingly by being left behind at the pre trib rapture, but He will still overcome for them since our confidence is in Him to finish what He has started in them ( Philippians 1:6-11 & 2 Timothy 4:18 ). This is what designates the vessels unto dishonour in His House for not departing from iniquity: 2 Timothy 2:19-21 which is why God is judging His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 )

No the only way any can overcome is to abide in him by faith,

"4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?": 1 John 5:4,5)

And no, there is no pre trib rapture, the rapture is at the end the SECOND coming, at the last trump after the tribulation of those days etc . But thats another thread to discuss that. And if a believer does not depart from iniquity as you spoke there,
They may be hardened through an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God. This can happen through the decitfulness of sin, Hebrews 3 and if a believer commits the sins mentioned in 1 Cor 6:9,10 and Galatians 5. They will not inherit the kingdom of God, in other words they will be lost and headed for the lake of fire as similar sins are mentioned for those who go to the lake of fire. And if their names are not written in the lambs book of life they will go to the lake of fire also.

Tellastory said:
If the professing believer does not depart from iniquity, then the works thereon is burned up but the foundation remains; the physical body is destroyed, but the spirit is still saved to be received later on after the great tribulation. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

This is not accurate. whatsoever is not of FAITH is sin. And when they wilfully sin there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation. Also if they are not in faith they are in unbelief and unbelief is one of the sins headed for the lake of fire. The foundation is faith in Christ. if they abide not in faith they are not on the foundation.

Tellastory said:
In Matthew 10, you are correct which is why that dwelling of the Holy Ghost was temporary. Judas was not saved & neither were the rest of disciples at that time.

Where does it say in Matthew 10 that they had the Holy Ghost dwelling in them and temproary?. There is a trinity, they had the Spirit of the father and the Spirit of Christ. The Holy Ghost was not yet given. Jesus said it is not you that speak but the Spirit of your father that speaketh in you. He did not say the Holy Ghost speaketh in you, but the Spirit of your Father. "20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." (Matthew 10:20 KJV)

and Jesus said,

"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him....26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name" John 14:23,26

here we see they could have , before the cross the father and the Son abiding in them, and after Jesus died and rose again the Holy Ghost was sent from the father to them.

Tellastory said:
BUT the actual baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus gives as promised from the Father can only be sent when Jesus was no longer among them but in Heaven.

Yes I touched on this above

Tellastory said:
John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. 34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come. 35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles? 36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come? 37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So... the disciples did not receive that promise yet until Pentecost and Judas Iscariot had never received that promise to be saved.

No this is not accurate. Jesus said there also, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" here the drinking is the life, and the water of the word, this is salvation. But those who drink or believe on him, will later be filled with the Spirit .

Tellastory said:
I doubt they could get far doing that in their days when the Temple was standing; and so Jesus is the high priest that had to ascend first to Heaven to serve as our Passover Lamb in coming to God the Father. There is no other way.

I was speaking spiritually of this reality as it should have been clear.

J

Tellastory said:
ohn 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

.

Yes Jesus is the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world John 1:9, and he is the word or seed sown in the hearts of men. When they believe the word takes root and sprouts ( new birth born again by the word of God) .

Tellastory said:
No. Look at what that verse says.

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Judas had never kept His word.

its not enough for you to just give your opinion based upon your doctrine that Judas "Never " kept his word. Jesus said they did while he was with them that is enough. Judas was also one of Jesus sheep and he said his sheep hear his voice and he knows them

And in John 17:6 Jesus is speaking of the 12 who once belonged to the father as he said. And Judas at the beginning was one of his sheep. Jesus even said to tall the 12 (before Judas betrayed him)

"27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:27,28

Here we see that Jesus speaking to the apostles, (Judas included) said that they would be sitting on twelve thrones, . Twelve being one for each of them. This shows that up till then Judas was still saved and had blessings if he continued in the faith as they all had.

Now for Matthew 10th chapter again... consider this.

Tellastory said:
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Now; they received the Holy Ghost "again" and so I ask you; were they saved in Matthew 10th chapter or in John 20th chapter? Or neither?

In Matthew 10 we do not read of them receiving the Holy Ghost. They had the Spirit of the father speaking in them when needed. This event was AFTER he had died and rose again. Your distorting the text and trying to mix the two together, they are not the same.

Tellastory said:
John 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

So how can men be a new creature aka a new bottle?

Here he is talking about the New covenant and the old etc.The new birth, or born again by the word of God. Is not the same as the Holy Ghost baptism. The Holy Ghost is only given to those that obey him, and

"32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

They have to obey first to be given the Holy Ghost baptism. The obedience is the obedience of faith as scripture shows, which they all had before pentecost. They did believe in Jesus as i could bring many scriptures.. And he that believes Jesus said hath life.

'"made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" Romans 16:16.

Tellastory said:
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Again, we read of the Spirit of the Father, the Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ (the Spirit of His Son)

Tellastory said:
So Jesus sent the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost when He has ascended to Heaven so that ALL believers were saved in the same way when God in Heaven saved us of those from among the living.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

So for new bottles to receive the new wine and not spill; but be sealed, Jesus had to pay the ransom and lead the way into Heaven before saving any one with the promise from the Father of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost. There is no other way to be reconciled to God by except by our Passover Lamb being in Heaven in saving future citizens on earth for the kingdom of heaven.

Cutting this reply short; and continuing with the rest of your post in the next reply; God be willing.

OT saints were saved by grace through faith and they had to be born again, or quickened by the word of God. There is so much i could bring to prove that all OT saints were saved. But it is a long talk. Maybe a whole new thread.

Tellastory · Jul 24, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
What I say does not go against scripture, that has yet to be proven. Most of the time it is misunderstanding, either of terms, or doctrines, or I have found that some only see things naturally and all their judgement is based on their own understanding , the spiritual realities and mysteries are often misunderstood.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

It is obvious that we are not reading His words in the same light, brother, and so I leave the convincing to God, but as far as OSAS goes, you would be remiss in telling others that Jesus Christ IS your Saviour if you might lose your salvation still.

Discipleship is about running that race as saved believers trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to abide in Him & His words as kept in the KJV Bible in living as His disciples for we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be moved ( Hebrews 12:28 of Hebrews 12:1-29 ); which is to say we cannot lose our salvation ( John 6:39-40 ) , but to run to be received as a vessel unto honour in His House which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in being partakers with Christ the firstfruits in attending the Marriage Supper ( 2 Timothy 2:10 & Luke 14:15-24 ) to avoid being a castaway ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) in becoming a vessel unto dishonour to be received later on in His House after the great tribulation. 2 Timothy 2:19-21

The same confidence we have in Christ Jesus in running that race to finish it for us as we are entrusting Him as our Good Shepherd in following Him as His disciples, the same confidence we can have in Him for those left behind for not looking to Him to lay aside every weight & sin and thus were not running that race, but He will still finish His work in them to His glory as vessels unto dishonour in His House testifying to the power of God in salvation for those that believe in Him, even in His name.

LoveofTruth · Jul 24, 2015

Tellastory said:
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

It is obvious that we are not reading His words in the same light, brother, and so I leave the convincing to God, but as far as OSAS goes, you would be remiss in telling others that Jesus Christ IS your Saviour if you might lose your salvation still.

Discipleship is about running that race as saved believers trusting Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to abide in Him & His words as kept in the KJV Bible in living as His disciples for we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be moved ( Hebrews 12:28 of Hebrews 12:1-29 ); which is to say we cannot lose our salvation ( John 6:39-40 ) , but to run to be received as a vessel unto honour in His House which is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in being partakers with Christ the firstfruits in attending the Marriage Supper ( 2 Timothy 2:10 & Luke 14:15-24 ) to avoid being a castaway ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 ) in becoming a vessel unto dishonour to be received later on in His House after the great tribulation. 2 Timothy 2:19-21

The same confidence we have in Christ Jesus in running that race to finish it for us as we are entrusting Him as our Good Shepherd in following Him as His disciples, the same confidence we can have in Him for those left behind for not looking to Him to lay aside every weight & sin and thus were not running that race, but He will still finish His work in them to His glory as vessels unto dishonour in His House testifying to the power of God in salvation for those that believe in Him, even in His name.

All believers must abide ( remain in him) or be cast out and cast into the fire as Jesus said. All beleivers must continue in the faith, our faith is not a fatalism of sorts. Believers can cast off faith having damnation, make shipwreck of faith, depart from the faith, have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, deny the faith, etc.

LoveofTruth · Jul 24, 2015

Lavendar Frog said:
I'd ask what pastor is teaching them this as well.

The anointing teaches us of all things 1 John 2:27 and we have no need that any MAN should teach us. Yes we hear the new man in Christ as Christ the head works effectually in other parts of the body. But it is not man that teaches us.

Lavendar Frog · Jul 24, 2015

How would one who studies on their own ascertain with perfect certainty that it is the Holy Spirit guiding their learning?
Even Lucifer can quote scripture. He was around when God's breath inspired man to write it down.
Wouldn't the many false teachers, pastors that we hear about delivering false doctrine to their congregations, believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit?
When Lucifer was the first and most beautiful of God's angels, and is highly intelligent, how can one know it isn't his spirit leading them in their studies? Especially when false teachers do exist and operate in God and Jesus' name.

LoveofTruth · Jul 24, 2015

Lavendar Frog said:
How would one who studies on their own ascertain with perfect certainty that it is the Holy Spirit guiding their learning?
Even Lucifer can quote scripture. He was around when God's breath inspired man to write it down.
Wouldn't the many false teachers, pastors that we hear about delivering false doctrine to their congregations, believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit?
When Lucifer was the first and most beautiful of God's angels, and is highly intelligent, how can one know it isn't his spirit leading them in their studies? Especially when false teachers do exist and operate in God and Jesus' name.

we have the witness in ourself, the Lord will reveal all things to believers. But we also need to have the body of believers and we all edify one another. Also we need the holy scriptures.

The three fold way is

1. the anointing

2. the body of believers in whom are also in the anointing

3. The holy scriptures that were given by anointed men by the Spirit.

Wordkeeper · Jul 24, 2015

New American Standard Bible
Luke 16:22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

Actually it's not a long talk.

Tellastory claims everybody is in hell before the Cross, and the only ones that get out, after Christ's ascension, are the ones who have seen Christ's day and were glad.

The above proves that the saints were saved, not in hell, and that the reprobate are already undergoing punishment, in hell.

LoveofTruth said:
What I say does not go against scripture, that has yet to be proven. Most of the time it is misunderstanding, either of terms, or doctrines, or I have found that some only see things naturally and all their judgement is based on their own understanding , the spiritual realities and mysteries are often misunderstood. Like The true Light that ligheth every man that cometh in to the world John 1:9. That Light is in every man since Adam, but not in union with every man until the new birth. This light of the glorious gospel of Christ shines within, and this is the treasure in earthen vessels, that is often hid from men, and it is called Christ in you the hope of glory.

Wrong, Judas is included in that context. We read in Acts 1 that Judas was spoken of in context to that specific Psalm. So who ever else is referred to Judas was one of them as well. This is very clear and the only reason someone would try to avoid the clear contecxt and meaning is because of their bias and doctrinal stance from what they have been told. Because this is a clear rebuke to the OSAS and Calvinist thought. Rather than simple say amen brother that is true and I was believing falsehoods for so long. They dig in and try to defend their position. But in doing this they become more entangled in error...sadly. At least this is from what I have seen.

I dont agree again, in that book of the living, which is the book of life that Jesus referred to when the ones he sent out were rejoicing that devils were subject unto them. We read that Judas was no longer written with the "righteous". Only the righteus are in that book, not just all living men unrighteous and righteous. That is an error to try and twist it that way as if the book only refers to people alive on earth and not saved.

Judas was an apostle and his bishiopprick was given to another. To be an apostle is a sent one of God. He was also given power and was ordained and sent forth , and was called a sheep sent to the lost sheep. Undeniable evidence. He also obtained part of the ministry. Meaning he was in the power and ministered as a believer.

No the only way any can overcome is to abide in him by faith,

"4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?": 1 John 5:4,5)

And no, there is no pre trib rapture, the rapture is at the end the SECOND coming, at the last trump after the tribulation of those days etc . But thats another thread to discuss that. And if a believer does not depart from iniquity as you spoke there,
They may be hardened through an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God. This can happen through the decitfulness of sin, Hebrews 3 and if a believer commits the sins mentioned in 1 Cor 6:9,10 and Galatians 5. They will not inherit the kingdom of God, in other words they will be lost and headed for the lake of fire as similar sins are mentioned for those who go to the lake of fire. And if their names are not written in the lambs book of life they will go to the lake of fire also.

This is not accurate. whatsoever is not of FAITH is sin. And when they wilfully sin there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation. Also if they are not in faith they are in unbelief and unbelief is one of the sins headed for the lake of fire. The foundation is faith in Christ. if they abide not in faith they are not on the foundation.

Where does it say in Matthew 10 that they had the Holy Ghost dwelling in them and temproary?. There is a trinity, they had the Spirit of the father and the Spirit of Christ. The Holy Ghost was not yet given. Jesus said it is not you that speak but the Spirit of your father that speaketh in you. He did not say the Holy Ghost speaketh in you, but the Spirit of your Father. "20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." (Matthew 10:20 KJV)

and Jesus said,

"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him....26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name" John 14:23,26

here we see they could have , before the cross the father and the Son abiding in them, and after Jesus died and rose again the Holy Ghost was sent from the father to them.

Yes I touched on this above

No this is not accurate. Jesus said there also, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" here the drinking is the life, and the water of the word, this is salvation. But those who drink or believe on him, will later be filled with the Spirit .

I was speaking spiritually of this reality as it should have been clear.

J.

Yes Jesus is the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world John 1:9, and he is the word or seed sown in the hearts of men. When they believe the word takes root and sprouts ( new birth born again by the word of God) .

its not enough for you to just give your opinion based upon your doctrine that Judas "Never " kept his word. Jesus said they did while he was with them that is enough. Judas was also one of Jesus sheep and he said his sheep hear his voice and he knows them

And in John 17:6 Jesus is speaking of the 12 who once belonged to the father as he said. And Judas at the beginning was one of his sheep. Jesus even said to tall the 12 (before Judas betrayed him)

"27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matthew 19:27,28

Here we see that Jesus speaking to the apostles, (Judas included) said that they would be sitting on twelve thrones, . Twelve being one for each of them. This shows that up till then Judas was still saved and had blessings if he continued in the faith as they all had.

Now for Matthew 10th chapter again... consider this.

In Matthew 10 we do not read of them receiving the Holy Ghost. They had the Spirit of the father speaking in them when needed. This event was AFTER he had died and rose again. Your distorting the text and trying to mix the two together, they are not the same.

Here he is talking about the New covenant and the old etc.The new birth, or born again by the word of God. Is not the same as the Holy Ghost baptism. The Holy Ghost is only given to those that obey him, and

"32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

They have to obey first to be given the Holy Ghost baptism. The obedience is the obedience of faith as scripture shows, which they all had before pentecost. They did believe in Jesus as i could bring many scriptures.. And he that believes Jesus said hath life.

'"made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" Romans 16:16.

Again, we read of the Spirit of the Father, the Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Christ (the Spirit of His Son)

OT saints were saved by grace through faith and they had to be born again, or quickened by the word of God. There is so much i could bring to prove that all OT saints were saved. But it is a long talk. Maybe a whole new thread.

rnmomof7 · Jul 25, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
The anointing teaches us of all things 1 John 2:27 and we have no need that any MAN should teach us. Yes we hear the new man in Christ as Christ the head works effectually in other parts of the body. But it is not man that teaches us.

In other words you do not have a Pastor ... Please look for a solid bible church ..you are wondering around in confusion

LoveofTruth · Jul 25, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
In other words you do not have a Pastor ... Please look for a solid bible church ..you are wondering around in confusion

The expression "have a pastor" is not a way to think about the gifts in the body. In home meetings some brothers have pastor gifts and other apostolic or teachers etc. It is not one man over all called My pastor. I have an apostolic gift (as much as you may deny that such a gift exist today, although I am not sure what your view is there) but I don't want any to say of me among them, he is "my apostle".

I have planted church meetings in many areas and been part of many other church gatherings and what most today call "church" or as you put it, "a solid bible church" is nothing like what Jesus is building as his church..

There are so many traditions of men that make the word of God of no effect today in many gatherings that it is hard to even see Christ as the head of His church working in every part.

Here are just a few of the man made religious forms that hinder the body of Christ today.

here are just a few, there is no,

• church buildings in the New Testeament, the church is the body of Christ and they met in homes for about 300 years after Christ, following the Spirit as he gave the order to the aposltes for churches.

• there is no one man pastor ministry over a church in the NT

• there is no song leaders

• no sermons

• no childrens church

• no paid salary ministers, except traveling apostolic workers and preachers who need support in their work 1 Cor 9

• no tithing

• no pews facing forward, (for they all met in homes for the church in the house,

• no altars with steps leading up to a man made altar ( also forbidden in scripture)

• no showtime religion with floodlights, superstar actors, slide shows etc

• no programs, written up with the whole event planned from beginning to end

• no services

• no worship services

• no names given to a religious building calling it a church

• no constitutional by-laws for tax breaks etc. and joining with the world

• no sanctuaries temples, etc

• no collections in the gatherings

• no small snack of a small cracker and small glass of juice for the supper. They had a full meal together

• No time schedules

• no youth ministers

• no pulpits

• no bible schools, where a man can buy his way into ministry, rather they were home grown elders recognized in their life and they knew the body

• no different and various orders for meetings, all were in a set order that allowed God to move freely among them in every church

No mans authority over others as Jesus warned us against with the Gentile rulers, true authority is in the word of God when spoken and lived.

etc

rnmomof7 · Jul 25, 2015

My friend you need a solid teacher.. you are making up your own doctrine ... others have done that as well ...and we call them cults

LoveofTruth · Jul 25, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
My friend you need a solid teacher.. you are making up your own doctrine ... others have done that as well ...and we call them cults

I do not make up my own doctrine, If so show me what doctrines you think I am making up.

You call yourself a Calvinist, that is like a cult to. John Calvin has done and said some horrible things. Paul warned others of being carnal for saying they are of Paul or Cephas etc. Some today say they are of Luther or Calvin, or the Pope etc. all carnal thinking sadly.

LoveofTruth · Jul 25, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
My friend you need a solid teacher.. you are making up your own doctrine ... others have done that as well ...and we call them cults

Calvin was not a solid teacher

RDKirk · Jul 25, 2015

Albion said:
I considered...and I don't think it holds up. We believe that Moses, for instance, was saved; and most people believe that he and others were in the bosom of Abraham awaiting the Savior, being released for heaven after Christ's death on the Cross. If this is the case, the Apostles were not in a worse position than they.

No, they were looking forward to the promise of salvation (Hebrews).

Crowns&Laurels · Jul 25, 2015

I suppose I just have an inherent compassion for Judas.

I understand his plight- his weakness, his guilt- why should he be in the hottest furnace in Hell and yet other murderers granted eternity in Heaven?

The Catholic Church used Judas to contrast the might of Peter, I don't see any other motive for condemning him the way he has been condemned.

LoveofTruth · Jul 25, 2015

rnmomof7 said:
My friend you need a solid teacher.. you are making up your own doctrine ... others have done that as well ...and we call them cults

I would also encourage you when you make a charge against another be sure to be able to have some evidence and back it up. Or else you bear false witness against them, and sin. It is not enough to just say to someone you are wrong and are making up doctrine etc and call them a cult, when you have no evidence whatsoever. That is not right.

I eagerly await any correction from scripture from you or you showing me any false doctrine I have made up?

eagerly

LoveofTruth · Jul 25, 2015

Crowns&Laurels said:
I suppose I just have an inherent compassion for Judas.

I understand his plight- his weakness, his guilt- why should he be in the hottest furnace in Hell and yet other murderers granted eternity in Heaven?

The Catholic Church used Judas to contrast the might of Peter, I don't see any other motive for condemning him the way he has been condemned.

He betrayed the Son of God and was a murderer ( of himself) all murderers go to the lake of fire as scripture teaches.

Crowns&Laurels · Jul 25, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
He betrayed the Son of God and was a murderer ( of himself) all murderers go to the lake of fire as scripture teaches.

People do not like Judas for one simple reason- it was the only time in all history that man could hurt God. And for that, it is seen as an act which cannot be forgiven because of it's abominable nature.

But what of the men who crucified him? Christ pleaded for them to perhaps be saved because they knew not what they did- how is Judas excluded?

You see, the inquiry comes with merit.

Judas was once saved and lost it...

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