These are also LDS beliefs (which is a Christian faith).
This is a false description of LDS beliefs.
And none of your comments address the point I was making in #37.
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These are also LDS beliefs (which is a Christian faith).Christians understand that the Church is made up of sinful human beings (albeit saved by Grace) and imperfect human beings who will continue to fall short and be in error on various things. What matters, and what is unmistakable to Christians of any denomination, is the communication from God through His Word and through the Holy Spirit as to who God is, what Salvation is, and those core, essential beliefs that make a person a "Christian"..
This is a false description of LDS beliefs.The Mormon religion lives in denial in order to preserve their belief that they are "The One True Church" and have infallible "prophets" who have guided them, despite all the evidence that this is false. That is what makes it easier in your mind to point to the admitted errors in Christian churches and say, "See??? Apostasy!!!" The problem is that your viewpoint is misinformed and wrong, as I've described above.
That's not the Catholic view at all- in fact Catholics view such statements as hearsay. But obviously you think that they are wrong and have apostatized from the Truth. If you truly believed no apostasy happened you would be Catholic (or Orthodox or one of the other groups that claims historical descedentship).
That's opinion. Christianity does not recognize you at all. We refer to the cxxx word when speaking about Mormonism. You know that Jane.These are also LDS beliefs (which is a Christian faith).
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This is the Roman Catholic view on non-Roman Catholic Christians:
The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. With the Orthodox churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist. (CCC 838)
In short, Christian churches tend to recognize each other as "Christian" even if they see each other with various errors. There are certain common essentials from Scripture that need to be met for someone to be considered a Christian. The Nicene Creed does a good job explaining such essentials.
The Roman Catholic Church thinks they are "The One True Church". In a way, they have good reason and in a way they are right; but they fail, in my opinion (and opinions of many others) in trying to brand and make "official" their status and their membership rolls. In this way they are very much like the Mormon Religion and are committing the same fallacy.
You seem to want to look to the shortcomings and errors of various Christian churches and point to this as proof of "Apostasy!!!!" Christians understand that the Church is made up of sinful human beings (albeit saved by Grace) and imperfect human beings who will continue to fall short and be in error on various things. What matters, and what is unmistakable to Christians of any denomination, is the communication from God through His Word and through the Holy Spirit as to who God is, what Salvation is, and those core, essential beliefs that make a person a "Christian".
The Mormon religion lives in denial in order to preserve their belief that they are "The One True Church" and have infallible "prophets" who have guided them, despite all the evidence that this is false. That is what makes it easier in your mind to point to the admitted errors in Christian churches and say, "See??? Apostasy!!!" The problem is that your viewpoint is misinformed and wrong, as I've described above.
These core essential Christian beliefs I'm talking about are basically those summed up in the Nicene Creed... So are you saying that the Mormons now are in agreement with the Nicene Creed?These are also LDS beliefs (which is a Christian faith).
How so?This is a false description of LDS beliefs.
Actually, my entire post addresses it. In #37, you pointed to the Roman Catholics as being a Church that does not accept anyone else as being in "The Church" (because ToBeLoved was talking about being part of "the Church"). In direct response to that, I provided from the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church their view of those Christians who are not Roman Catholics. In that view, it says that they believe that Christians who are not Catholics are still in the Church even if it's in a less than perfect way.And none of your comments address the point I was making in #37.
That's a rather new view, they use to excommunicate each other back and forth and who ever lost the argument got burned at the stake.
I was referring to the section I quoted, not the Nicene Creed.These core essential Christian beliefs I'm talking about are basically those summed up in the Nicene Creed... So are you saying that the Mormons now are in agreement with the Nicene Creed?
You gave false cartoonized "facts".How so?
Except that my point had nothing to do with how Catholics view Protestants. Rather my point was that is TBL (or anyone else) views there being no apostasy, then she should quit her protesting ways an adopt Catholic beliefs (or Orthodox or one of the other churches that claim historical direct descendent-ship). But she doesn't- she passionately rejects the Catholic notion of priesthood, Real Presence, and many other claims as being false.Actually, my entire post addresses it. In #37, you pointed to the Roman Catholics as being a Church that does not accept anyone else as being in "The Church" (because ToBeLoved was talking about being part of "the Church"). In direct response to that, I provided from the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church their view of those Christians who are not Roman Catholics. In that view, it says that they believe that Christians who are not Catholics are still in the Church even if it's in a less than perfect way.
That happened a few hundred years before Mornonism was even a thought.
There was NO APOSTASY. Jesus said ALL who come to Him He will NOT TURN AWAY. You would have Jesus if you repent from Mormonism.That's right, right in the middle of the apostasy.
You really need to break it down into smaller pieces. I honestly stopped reading after the second paragraph because it was like reading a novel.*In the letters to Timothy Paul draws on this knowledge of the apostasy throughout them, he is deeply worried that Timothy as young as he was will also fall into this apostasy.
1 Tim
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
By fables and endless genealogies means the teachings of Gnostics and their order of eons plus there is this Jewish law being added in.
There have always been men who desire to be teachers who think they have a better way, they falsely lay claim to be teachers and preachers of the gospel.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
He is very worried about Timothy will also follow this false doctrine. Then he give a another list of false doctrines
1, Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1Tim 6
2.….These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
In 2 Timothy he starts in again and tells us that the apostasy is well on it’s way.
2Tim 1
13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;
In chapter 2 he warns about " foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes…."
Chapter 3
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,…Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
There is that ‘power’ again, denying the power of God. False teachers and prophets will obviously deny "the power" of God because they don’t have it. Remember Paul said the "….the one who opposes himself to and exalts himself against everyone who is called God ….you know the power which restrains him …. But The Man of Sin will appear only when the one who restrains him is removed from the scene."
In the JKV it reads; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped..
I think the intent is anything that represents the truth of God, he opposes all truth and God himself.
In Matt 9 Jesus heals a man and when the multitude see it "they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men." In the next chapter he gives this power to his Apostles;
"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." Matt 10
*This was a very real power, the power to command a healing but also the power against Satan and his angels* This point is important to our discussion, it is the power which restrains Satan.
Paul is telling Timothy that "in the last days" this power will be denied or just plain forgotten.
Now the last line there "the one who restrains him is removed from the scene". It was Peter who held the keys and power to bind on earth and this power over Satan. When he died/the priesthood power went with him.
Moving on with Tim 3
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth….Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived….. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
That time came!
So let’s recap again;
The Apostles were told they would be killed which happened before 70ad.
Jesus prophecies that even before their deaths false teachers and prophets would arise; Peter, John, James, Jude and Paul all attest this to be true.
*Part 3 and almost done
back to Matt 24 & add in a little of Rev 13, we’ll be looking at verses 21 -28.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Who are the elect ?
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name
And in some ways the saints of the early church are in that group as they are adopted or "wert grafted in among them" Rom 11. So during this first time of tribulation the elect would be there, remember back in Deut 4 they were told
"27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
So what kind of tribulation can that be? Daniel, Amos and John the Revelator described as a flood.
In Rev 13 the great beast represents all worldly power controlled by Satan which would fight against God.
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
There is a clue which give a time period
"Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
According to William Barclay that number is a Hebrew letter number which stands for Nero who was alive and kicking when both John and Paul were writing.
Back to 2 Thess 2 "…the one who opposes himself to and exalts himself against everyone who is called God or made an object of worship so that he attempts to take his seat in the very temple of God and proclaims that he himself is God…. For the secret of lawlessness is even now in operation"
Nero was an extremely evil man who finally committed suicide 68ad. He was the last of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, his death sent Rome into a short civil war when the Flavians rise to power. It was Titus who entered Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple, he was later deified by the Roman senate. This is what Paul and John and Daniel 11 is talking about.
"36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done."
I have here a short list of the persecutions/tribulations which came upon the Jews/elect
When Titus sacked Jerusalem in 70ad it is said they killed over a million people and enslaved another 100,000.
In 115 ad there was the Kitos Wars and several hundreds of thousands more of the elect were killed.
In 132 ad about 500,000 Jews were killed, thousands more were sold into in slavery. The Christians didn’t treat them any better and there is a long history of persecution starting in the burning of synagogues and the denial of human rights.
When Rome fell in 600 ad it left the world without any presiding authority. It was more of that "secret of lawlessness". Eventually Europe formed city states which warred against each other.
The Catholic church became a recognized authority in Europe, they dictated what was Gospel and what wasn’t, you had to accept their Trinity or literally be burned at the stake, the real knowledge of God was lost.
Islam began its rise in the Middle East and reached Spain by 700ad.They are anti Christ and forced many Christians to convert. Charlemagne began his rise, being crowed Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 800 ad. The Crusades started in 1096 which led to a massive slaughter of Jews once again, whole villages of Jews were wiped out. If you read though the history of this time period it’s one bloody battle after another.
It all culminates with the Black Death appearing on the scene in 1331 with an estimate 25 million Chinese dieing before it ever appeared in Constantinople in 1347. India was basically depopulated. It spread rabidly across the middle east up into Europe and reached England by 1348. France and Spain lost nearly 80% of their population, Germany and England more like 20%. Paris lost 100,000 people in four years, Florence 120,000.
Once again the Jews were singled out for persecution, since they couldn’t explain what was happening it just had to be the Jews fault even though they suffered from the plague just as much as everyone else.
By 1351 100s of Jewish communities were completely destroyed. If this had not come to an end "there should no flesh be saved".
We don’t call those medieval times the dark ages for nothing, they were a dark and terrible time.
I believe the days of tribulation lasted from 70 ad to about the 1400s when the printing press was developed and the Bible could be published so that the common man could own and read one. I don’t mean the persecution or tribulation for the Jews ever stopped but there began to be a change or as the world calls it an enlightenment. The Spirit of the Lord began to once again move among men. In 1518 Martin Luther and others began to recognized that the ‘Universal Church’ had lost its way. The Americas began to be open and freedom of religion was the outcome.
Jesus said of this tribulation time;
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
He is repeating what Amos said;
11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
Now I’m going to end this here because the next part of Matt 24 is about the restoration of the Gospel.
So a final recap by looking at the initial questions we asked about 2Thess 2
There was an on going prophecy of a falling away, a rebellion, a time of wandering from sea to sea and not being able to find the words of the Lord. The apostles of Jesus day saw it happening before their eyes.
First question; when will this rebellion happen
The answer is at the fall of the temple in which occurred in 70 ad
Next question; what is the power which restrains
It is the power of God , Rom 13
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
That power or the power to act in the name of God was given to Jesus Apostles, Peter being the chief Apostles
Forth ; who is the one who is restraining him and when was he removed from the scene
It was Peter acting as the chief Apostles and the Power of God which Jesus gave him, once he died and the priesthood was removed from the earth Satan was no longer restrained and began his rule.
Third question; what lawlessness was in operation
It was the world dominated and controlled by Satan.
And then that last line, who consented to that principle of unrighteousness
Paul, John, Jude, James and Peter all said the corruption came from within, it was the leaders who became false prophets and teachers.
I feel like I have shown that in the Bible the apostasy was both prophesied about and did happen.
You really need to break it down into smaller pieces. I honestly stopped reading after the second paragraph because it was like reading a novel.
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I think you are the apostates. Your religion is something not of our Jesus.That's right, right in the middle of the apostasy.
In the section you quoted I said, "What matters, and what is unmistakable to Christians of any denomination, is the communication from God through His Word and through the Holy Spirit as to who God is, what Salvation is, and those core, essential beliefs that make a person a "Christian"..." Those core, essential beliefs that I referred to were identified in another part of my post as the Nicene Creed. Although you conveniently (for you) omitted that part of my post it doesn't change the meaning of the section of my post that you quoted.I was referring to the section I quoted, not the Nicene Creed.
How so? You make assertions but you don't (i.e. aren't able to) explain or provide evidence for your assertions.You gave false cartoonized "facts".
Again, you are making an assumption that disagreement with the Catholic Church means a belief that the Catholic Church is apostate and that isn't necessarily the case and in fact is not the case with orthodox Protestant denominations. There are many things that Protestants disagree with the Catholic Church about but for the most part they will not call the Catholic Church "apostate" nor will they say that a Catholic cannot be a Christian. And it is the same situation in regard to how Catholics view non-Catholic Christians, as I showed from their Catechism.Except that my point had nothing to do with how Catholics view Protestants. Rather my point was that is TBL (or anyone else) views there being no apostasy, then she should quit her protesting ways an adopt Catholic beliefs (or Orthodox or one of the other churches that claim historical direct descendent-ship). But she doesn't- she passionately rejects the Catholic notion of priesthood, Real Presence, and many other claims as being false.
If it takes to long to get to your point than people aren't going to read it.Well I had it in three parts but found it would fit in two. no one has even tried to refute it so ....
In the section you quoted I said, "What matters, and what is unmistakable to Christians of any denomination, is the communication from God through His Word and through the Holy Spirit as to who God is, what Salvation is, and those core, essential beliefs that make a person a "Christian"..." Those core, essential beliefs that I referred to were identified in another part of my post as the Nicene Creed.
To that, your response was,
"These are also LDS beliefs (which is a Christian faith)." Therefore, you are saying that the beliefs identified in the Nicene Creed are also LDS beliefs.
In other words, in the section you quoted I was referring to the Nicene Creed, therefore if you were referring to that section you had to be referring to the Nicene Creed.
How so? You make assertions but you don't (i.e. aren't able to) explain or provide evidence for your assertions.
Again, you are making an assumption that disagreement with the Catholic Church means a belief that the Catholic Church is apostate and that isn't necessarily the case and in fact is not the case with orthodox Protestant denominations. There are many things that Protestants disagree with the Catholic Church about but for the most part they will not call the Catholic Church "apostate" nor will they say that a Catholic cannot be a Christian. And it is the same situation in regard to how Catholics view non-Catholic Christians, as I showed from their Catechism.
So, that being the case, how do you arrive at the conclusion that a Protestant must either think the Roman Catholic Church is apostate or else accept them as non-apostate and join them (or any Apostolic Church)? The only way you would make such a connection is because you think that the disagreements between Protestants and Catholics can only mean that one group believes the other group is apostate and you're basing that on the fact that they aren't in 100% agreement on every issue.
The Nicene Creed is what connects Catholics and Protestants. Because they all accept the core essentials in the Nicene Creed they can and do accept each other as being "Christian", even in light of the stark differences in non-essential beliefs.
The Mormons fall on the outside of all of this because they reject the core essentials which are in the Nicene Creed.
I have read on the other forums here and there is not the harmonious unity you say there s. So I would say that is a big false statement.I don't think they can take the truth that almost every denomination of Christian on this thread get's along fine. That throws a big wrench in their whole scenario about how Christians do not get along. Bogus, but they like to think it's true.
This long post has little to do with what I said.In the section you quoted I said, "What matters, and what is unmistakable to Christians of any denomination, is the communication from God through His Word and through the Holy Spirit as to who God is, what Salvation is, and those core, essential beliefs that make a person a "Christian"..." Those core, essential beliefs that I referred to were identified in another part of my post as the Nicene Creed. Although you conveniently (for you) omitted that part of my post it doesn't change the meaning of the section of my post that you quoted.
To that, your response was,
"These are also LDS beliefs (which is a Christian faith)." Therefore, you are saying that the beliefs identified in the Nicene Creed are also LDS beliefs.
In other words, in the section you quoted I was referring to the Nicene Creed, therefore if you were referring to that section you had to be referring to the Nicene Creed.
If you are going to quote me you can't take a piece of my post, conveniently chop off parts you don't like and then pretend that the section you're quoting is saying something other than what I originally said and meant. Doing that, as you did, is called "distorting" or "twisting" what I said. You took part of what I said, left out the parts that were inconvenient for you, presented the quote of a part of what I said so it looks a certain way and then put your spin on it by declaring that what I said "are also LDS beliefs..."
That is disingenuous at best and flat out lying/deception at worst.
How so? You make assertions but you don't (i.e. aren't able to) explain or provide evidence for your assertions.
Again, you are making an assumption that disagreement with the Catholic Church means a belief that the Catholic Church is apostate and that isn't necessarily the case and in fact is not the case with orthodox Protestant denominations. There are many things that Protestants disagree with the Catholic Church about but for the most part they will not call the Catholic Church "apostate" nor will they say that a Catholic cannot be a Christian. And it is the same situation in regard to how Catholics view non-Catholic Christians, as I showed from their Catechism.
So, that being the case, how do you arrive at the conclusion that a Protestant must either think the Roman Catholic Church is apostate or else accept them as non-apostate and join them (or any Apostolic Church)? The only way you would make such a connection is because you think that the disagreements between Protestants and Catholics can only mean that one group believes the other group is apostate and you're basing that on the fact that they aren't in 100% agreement on every issue.
The Nicene Creed is what connects Catholics and Protestants. Because they all accept the core essentials in the Nicene Creed they can and do accept each other as being "Christian", even in light of the stark differences in non-essential beliefs.
The Mormons fall on the outside of all of this because they reject the core essentials which are in the Nicene Creed.
That long post not only has everything to do with what you said, but that long post shows and explains clearly HOW it has everything to do with what you said.This long post has little to do with what I said.
I am definately not fooledThat long post not only has everything to do with what you said, but that long post shows and explains clearly HOW it has everything to do with what you said.
Now, if it really does not, then it shouldn't be hard for you to show how it iss not. But you can't, so you fall back on what is apparently is your pattern, which is to simply make a statement and provide zero explanation, evidence, or proof for it.
That's fine. I'll let it stand as it is for everyone else to see. If you can fool yourself then be my guest, but don't think you're fooling anyone who is reading all these posts.
The gates of hell do what? They hold the dead in. The gates will no longer be able to hold the dead in. They will not be able to prevail against the gospel and the rock of revelation and the very messiah that died and resurrected. Because of this Christ broke the bands of death that would have destroyed all mankind if it were not for the messiah.'rock' is used in more than one way in the Bible.
Of course Jesus is the rock. Then Jesus said to Peter "upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell WILL NOT prevail against it"
Now you need to explain why Jesus lied in the above statement. Jesus has said there is NO apostasy.
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