LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[Tra Phull]

I like Phoebe Ann's keep calm sign.

 

[He is the way]

Neither does the person in the JS Papyri. It's filled in to look that way at a later date by someone. That's very obvious if you just look at the thing with your eyes:

It is impossible to NOT see that one leg is up unless a person is blind. And that part was NOT drawn in.

 

[He is the way]

You said: "Again, there is no "original manuscript" of the Bible in the first place. This point would be a lot easier to deal with if you knew what the Bible actually is, so that you could stop pretending that this means something."

The Bible is a series of epistles (letters) written by the apostles to the churches. So yes there was an original manuscript. Perhaps you have a different definition of epistle.

 

[He is the way]

You said: "As I've already explained elsewhere, actual experts/academics in the field of Egyptology who have taken the time to translate the fragments that remain have thereby extrapolated from what is there to show that there is no reason to expect a substantially longer text than what they have now, let alone an unrelated text about Abraham. So this isn't much of a point, either."

And as I have explained, except for one of the fragments the rest of the Book of Abraham and perhaps that one fragment came from a different scroll. There was more than one mummy and more than one scroll.

 

[Leaf473]

I believe the Book of Mormon is fiction. I merely provide information from LDS sources.

View attachment 282204

cool! how would you describe yourself, then?

 

[Leaf473]

The Bible is a series of epistles (letters) written by the apostles to the churches. So yes there was an original manuscript. Perhaps you have a different definition of epistle.

I think that would describe most books in the New testament.
three of the four gospels aren't really "epistles", imo.

I think it is interesting that several of the New testament books do not claim apostolic authorship.

the Old testament was not written by apostles, in the New testament sense of the office of apostle.

imo, the ot is a collection of historical and prophetic works written by, well, historians and prophets.

 

[Leaf473]

did Joseph Smith say that the reason a new translation of the Bible was needed was that the existing ancient manuscripts were extremely corrupt?

if so, and if the New testament manuscripts haven't been significantly corrupted, then Joseph wasn't telling the truth about that situation.

that would lead me to seriously question his claims regarding the book of Abraham.

 

[He is the way]

did Joseph Smith say that the reason a new translation of the Bible was needed was that the existing ancient manuscripts were extremely corrupt?

if so, and if the New testament manuscripts haven't been significantly corrupted, then Joseph wasn't telling the truth about that situation.

that would lead me to seriously question his claims regarding the book of Abraham.

As far as I know he did not have an opinion, he just did as the Lord commanded him to do.

 

[dzheremi]

It is impossible to NOT see that one leg is up unless a person is blind. And that part was NOT drawn in.

It's impossible to see that that's not the only thing you claimed in the post I was responding to, and that the JS papyri has been tampered with via the penciling in of the scene with details that make it match what you described. Don't pretend like you've one-upped me by walking back your claim to now only be about one leg being up, which for all we know could mean something or nothing in the context of the scene. It's not like Abraham is the only person to ever exist in the world who could lift up one leg, so in any case it's not evidence for the Book of Abraham.

 

[dzheremi]

And as I have explained, except for one of the fragments the rest of the Book of Abraham and perhaps that one fragment came from a different scroll. There was more than one mummy and more than one scroll.

Again, see post #106 for Dr. Ritner's explanation as to why this sort of thing is bunk. There is no reason to expect a much longer and altogether disconnected story to be present on any missing bits of the existing JS papyri, and as far as I can tell from watching interviews with Dr. Ritner on this topic, what we have now is basically the complete text, matching in content, style, and length other Egyptian funerary scrolls, and again containing absolutely nothing at all about Abraham.

So it's really a problem for the Mormon narrative that you apparently recognize this or that fragment of the existing scroll as being connected to the BOA, because what has been translated shows no connection to the Mormon text. So it wouldn't matter if we had 10%, 5%, or whatever percent of the scroll, because we can tell (thanks to academics like Dr. Ritner) what was on it, and compare it to the text of the BOA, and see that they do not match up at all. If you claim otherwise, you're quite simply wrong.

 

[He is the way]

It's impossible to see that that's not the only thing you claimed in the post I was responding to, and that the JS papyri has been tampered with via the penciling in of the scene with details that make it match what you described. Don't pretend like you've one-upped me by walking back your claim to now only be about one leg being up, which for all we know could mean something or nothing in the context of the scene. It's not like Abraham is the only person to ever exist in the world who could lift up one leg, so in any case it's not evidence for the Book of Abraham.

The person on the bed/table is not dead. It is NOT the book of the dead.

 

[He is the way]

Again, see post #106 for Dr. Ritner's explanation as to why this sort of thing is bunk. There is no reason to expect a much longer and altogether disconnected story to be present on any missing bits of the existing JS papyri, and as far as I can tell from watching interviews with Dr. Ritner on this topic, what we have now is basically the complete text, matching in content, style, and length other Egyptian funerary scrolls, and again containing absolutely nothing at all about Abraham.

So it's really a problem for the Mormon narrative that you apparently recognize this or that fragment of the existing scroll as being connected to the BOA, because what has been translated shows no connection to the Mormon text. So it wouldn't matter if we had 10%, 5%, or whatever percent of the scroll, because we can tell (thanks to academics like Dr. Ritner) what was on it, and compare it to the text of the BOA, and see that they do not match up at all. If you claim otherwise, you're quite simply wrong.

It is the text from one of the scrolls, remember there were TWO mummies. Two mummies, two scrolls and one of the scrolls is missing.

 

[Tra Phull]

Always TWO of everything...

 

[mmksparbud]

The person on the bed/table is not dead. It is NOT the book of the dead.

It's not a bed/table. It is a bed. Sacrifices took place in the temple of the god, or the Pharaoh, and they were decapitated with a sword. They were not killed with a knife in bed. This is not an authentic depiction of anything.

 

[Rescued One]

cool! how would you describe yourself, then?

Is this what you are asking?

I am no longer LDS; I am a Christian saved by the blood of the Lamb. I am Pro-Bible and Pro-Life.

 

[Dale]

It is impossible to NOT see that one leg is up unless a person is blind. And that part was NOT drawn in.

I don't claim to be an expert on ancient Egypt but apparently it isn't unusual for a dead person to be represented this way. I'm not sure why. Maybe it foreshadows that the person will be resurrected by the Egyptian gods in the underworld. Maybe it is a way of making it absolutely clear that the person still has two legs. Whatever the explanation, it is not hard to find a Egyptian pictures of a dead person on a bed with one leg in the air. See below.

This picture shows the Egyptian god Osiris, god of the afterlife and the underworld, with one leg up.
The caption identifies the picture as Osiris on "his bier," meaning a body ready for burial.
Or, in his case, possibly a body ready for an Egyptian style resurrection.

 

[dzheremi]

The person on the bed/table is not dead. It is NOT the book of the dead.

It's a book of breathing. I never claimed it was the book of the dead. I don't know where you're getting that from.

 

[He is the way]

I don't claim to be an expert on ancient Egypt but apparently it isn't unusual for a dead person to be represented this way. I'm not sure why. Maybe it foreshadows that the person will be resurrected by the Egyptian gods in the underworld. Maybe it is a way of making it absolutely clear that the person still has two legs. Whatever the explanation, it is not hard to find a Egyptian pictures of a dead person on a bed with one leg in the air. See below.


View attachment 282273

This picture shows the Egyptian god Osiris, god of the afterlife and the underworld, with one leg up.
The caption identifies the picture as Osiris on "his bier," meaning a body ready for burial.
Or, in his case, possibly a body ready for an Egyptian style resurrection.

This site about the resurrection of Osiris contains many pictures of Osiris on the bier. He is dead in some of them and alive in others. I believe that he was very much alive in the picture you posted.
ISIDA Project
Dendera. Osiris Resurrection


Dendera. Osiris Resurrection.

 

[Leaf473]

Is this what you are asking?

I am no longer LDS; I am a Christian saved by the blood of the Lamb. I am Pro-Bible and Pro-Life.

Yes, that's what I was asking, my sister in Christ.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't claim to be an expert on ancient Egypt but apparently it isn't unusual for a dead person to be represented this way. I'm not sure why. Maybe it foreshadows that the person will be resurrected by the Egyptian gods in the underworld. Maybe it is a way of making it absolutely clear that the person still has two legs. Whatever the explanation, it is not hard to find a Egyptian pictures of a dead person on a bed with one leg in the air. See below.


View attachment 282273

This picture shows the Egyptian god Osiris, god of the afterlife and the underworld, with one leg up.
The caption identifies the picture as Osiris on "his bier," meaning a body ready for burial.
Or, in his case, possibly a body ready for an Egyptian style resurrection.

the little I know about Egyptian drawings and writing leads me to believe that it's highly stylized.

what appears to be one thing often stands for something very different.
so, and I'm just making up something here, a picture of an eagle might mean "hunter".

does being LDS require accepting conspiracy theories of different kinds?
like, that Egyptologists today conspire to misrepresent what's left of the book of Abraham papyrus?
people in ancient times conspired to corrupt the scriptures?