LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

Leaf473 · Jul 31, 2020

He is the way said:
You said: "do you believe this was incorrect when Moses (or whoever) first wrote it down?
or is it incorrect because of copying errors?

I think it is due to three things, copying errors, translation errors, and omission errors.

You said: "if I have a question I just go to the Bible hub interlinear"

I too use Bible Hub, however it also used all of the different translations along with the interlinear. Where words are used sparsely in the scriptures it is harder to define them by context.

There are other conflicts in the Bible:

(Old Testament | Genesis 32:30)

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

(Old Testament | Exodus 33:11)

11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:4)

4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 34:10)

10 ¶ And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

(New Testament | Matthew 11:27)

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

(New Testament | John 1:18)

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(I thought I had posted this already, but I don't see it on the thread.)

I agree that there are conflicts in the Bible, I believe they were put there by God on purpose for the same kind of reasons that Jesus spoke in parables.

but before we get too much further, it would be really handy to have an easy to use online version the JST.

is there one?
all I can find is two copies on archive.org, which are scans of old public domain books.

I thought it would be available on the official LDS website,
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
but it doesn't look like it's there, either.

did I miss it somewhere?
if not, why is it not easily available?

Leaf473 · Jul 31, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
1 Nephi 13:29
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away [the Bible]it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

hi Phoebe Ann!

it sounds like you're making a faith-based statement.
That's fine of course!

I've heard people say that they simply believe that the KJV is the absolute inspired word of God, word for word.
sometimes a person will choose to believe that the Earth is flat.

I think it is difficult to show that the documents that make up the Bible have been significantly altered.
this situation changes, though, if a person is highly motivated to believe they have been altered.

I think this is especially true for the New testament.
there are thousands of ancient Greek manuscripts available.
they agree for the vast majority of words.

doing some brief research on my phone, I found this quote and webpage which basically sums up the situation:
"For more than ninety-nine percent of the cases the original text can be reconstructed to a practical certainty."
Manuscript Evidence for the Bible's Reliability | Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries

Leaf473 · Jul 31, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
Exodus 32:14, Inspired Version (aka JST)
Exod 32:14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If they will repent of the evil which they have done, I will spare them and turn away my fierce wrath; but behold, thou shalt execute judgment upon all that will not repent of this evil this day. Therefore, see thou do this thing that I have commanded thee, or I will execute all that which I had thought to do unto my people.

Handy link:
Exodus

thanks for the info!

the issue that I see is that the lxx (a Greek translation of the Hebrew done about 200 BC) is virtually identical to the Hebrew.

Smith's translation is drastically different from either.
if Smith's translation is correct, it would mean that the Hebrew had been drastically altered prior to 200 BC.

do you follow what I'm saying there?

I find it very strange that if the Hebrew scriptures at that time were highly corrupted, neither Jesus nor the apostles and prophets in the early church did anything to correct the situation.

also, is the JST on the scriptures page of the LDS website?
if not, why not?
Scriptures

He is the way · Jul 31, 2020

Leaf473 said:
(I thought I had posted this already, but I don't see it on the thread.)

I agree that there are conflicts in the Bible, I believe they were put there by God on purpose for the same kind of reasons that Jesus spoke in parables.

but before we get too much further, it would be really handy to have an easy to use online version the JST.

is there one?
all I can find is two copies on archive.org, which are scans of old public domain books.

I thought it would be available on the official LDS website,
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
but it doesn't look like it's there, either.

did I miss it somewhere?
if not, why is it not easily available?

Joseph Smith Translation Appendix

Leaf473 · Jul 31, 2020

He is the way said:
Joseph Smith Translation Appendix

thanks for the link!
but, I don't see how to get to Exodus 32 on the link.

Rescued One · Jul 31, 2020

Leaf473 said:
thanks for the info!

the issue that I see is that the lxx (a Greek translation of the Hebrew done about 200 BC) is virtually identical to the Hebrew.

Smith's translation is drastically different from either.
if Smith's translation is correct, it would mean that the Hebrew had been drastically altered prior to 200 BC.

do you follow what I'm saying there?

I find it very strange that if the Hebrew scriptures at that time were highly corrupted, neither Jesus nor the apostles and prophets in the early church did anything to correct the situation.

also, is the JST on the scriptures page of the LDS website?
if not, why not?
Scriptures

The HOLY SCRIPTURES Inspired Version is copyrighted by Community of Christ. The LDS do not own the copyright. Emma Smith did not accept Brigham Young as a prophet of God.

Community of Christ.org:
In some ways, the hardships of Missouri made our community stronger, allowing us to form a powerful common identity. Unfortunately, a stronger concept of “us” resulted in a stronger concept of “them.” Church members regularly referred to non-members as “Gentiles.”

The Nauvoo experience also saw the growing centralization of both church and state authority. In addition to being church president, Joseph Smith also held the office of mayor, selected municipal court officers, and was the commanding general of the militia with more than 3000 men under his command.

As new theologies and practices were introduced to the church, many people were shocked and alarmed. When some members challenged these practices in a local newspaper, Joseph called on the Nauvoo sheriff and his deputies to destroy the printing press. This action caused an uproar in the surrounding area. Joseph was arrested, posted bond, and was immediately rearrested on charges of treason. While awaiting trial in the town of Carthage, a mob stormed the jail and killed Joseph and his brother Hyrum.

Following the death of Joseph Smith Jr., the church was left without a clear leader. Over the next 16 years, our movement fractured into numerous factions under various leaders. Some were focused on the earliest Restoration doctrines, others looked to Kirtland or Nauvoo for guidance, while yet others created post-Nauvoo innovations. Polygamy continued to be an especially divisive issue for many of the diverging factions. Those church members who opposed polygamous practices found themselves scattered across the Midwest without a leader or an organized church.

In 1860, Joseph Smith III accepted leadership of the scattered church. As a teenager in Nauvoo after the great exodus, Joseph remained unaffiliated with any faction of our movement. He was elected by Nauvoo citizens as justice of the peace in 1857, overcoming the stigma that local people associated with the name “Joseph Smith.” But even more important was his re-election in 1861. Voters were able to assess his fairness to settle such issues as property ownership rights, business contract relationships, and marriage. His reelection reflected the confidence people had in his wise decision making. After much prayerful soul searching, Joseph felt God’s calling and traveled to a gathering of church members in Amboy, Illinois. There he was ordained as the president of our church on April 6, 1860.

Joseph III came of age in Nauvoo. The largely abandoned city, the ruins of the temple, and his father’s grave constantly reminded him of the conflicts our movement faced in its early years. He knew it was important for our church to reestablish an identity of its own. Under Joseph III’s leadership the first edition of The True Latter Day Saints’ Herald was published in 1860. The Herald became a platform for leaders and members to recount mission experiences, discuss issues, and share perspectives on our faith community’s unique calling. The periodical, now simply called the Herald, continues to fulfill this function today, 150 years after its founding....
History

I am no longer LDS or of any church that endorses the Book of Mormon.

Rescued One · Jul 31, 2020

Leaf473 said:
thanks for the link!
but, I don't see how to get to Exodus 32 on the link.

JST, Exodus 32

He is the way · Jul 31, 2020

Leaf473 said:
thanks for the link!
but, I don't see how to get to Exodus 32 on the link.

There are two in Exodus 32. First 12:

(Old Testament:Exodus 32:12)

b JST Ex. 32:12 ... Turn from thy fierce wrath. Thy people will repent of this evil; therefore come thou not out against them.

and 14 which is on the left hand of the screen from the link:

JST, Exodus 32:14. Compare Exodus 32:14

The Lord will spare the Israelites who will repent.

14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If they will repent of the evil which they have done, I will spare them, and turn away my fierce wrath; but, behold, thou shalt execute judgment upon all that will not repent of this evil this day. Therefore, see thou do this thing that I have commanded thee, or I will execute all that which I had thought to do unto my people.

It seems like the link is only for those changes that are in the JST index. You may need to purchase one of these:

Regular Quad - Simulated Leather

Or let me know if you have a particular verse. The Quad has the JST in the footnotes and the index.

Leaf473 · Aug 2, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
The HOLY SCRIPTURES Inspired Version is copyrighted by Community of Christ. The LDS do not own the copyright. Emma Smith did not accept Brigham Young as a prophet of God.

I don't understand.
anything written by Joseph Smith would long ago have passed into the public domain.

any particular edition (a book or a website) produced in the last 100 years could be copyrighted,
but the actual text of the translation could not be copyrighted.

I found these two links to digitized versions of the 1867 edition,
but they're very difficult to search, imo.

The Holy scriptures : Smith, Joseph, 1805-1844 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Holy Scriptures, tr. and cor. by the spirit of revelation : Smith, Joseph, 1805-1844 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Leaf473 · Aug 2, 2020

Phoebe Ann said:
JST, Exodus 32

yes, thank you for that link.

I believe I was responding to this post

He is the way said:
Joseph Smith Translation Appendix

which links to the official LDS site.

from what I can see, the official LDS site does not have the Joseph Smith translation in full.

it looks like the community of Christ website does.

and yes, I now understand that you are not part of the group that is associated with the official LDS website.

Ironhold · Aug 2, 2020

Leaf473 said:
I don't understand.
anything written by Joseph Smith would long ago have passed into the public domain.

any particular edition (a book or a website) produced in the last 100 years could be copyrighted,
but the actual text of the translation could not be copyrighted.

I found these two links to digitized versions of the 1867 edition,
but they're very difficult to search, imo.

The Holy scriptures : Smith, Joseph, 1805-1844 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Holy Scriptures, tr. and cor. by the spirit of revelation : Smith, Joseph, 1805-1844 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Welcome to the wonderful world of American copyright law, where it's easy to get lost in the morass.

Leaf473 · Aug 2, 2020

ah, I got it now.
one of the issues may have been that we might be using different kinds of devices/browsers.

I found the part of Exodus 32 here
JST, Exodus 32

So, I ask the same question I asked of a different user above

Leaf473 said:
the issue that I see is that the lxx (a Greek translation of the Hebrew done about 200 BC) is virtually identical to the Hebrew.

Smith's translation is drastically different from either.

if Smith's translation is correct, it would mean that the Hebrew had been drastically altered prior to 200 BC.

do you follow what I'm saying there?

I find it very strange that if the Hebrew scriptures at that time were highly corrupted, neither Jesus nor the apostles and prophets in the early church did anything to correct the situation.

Leaf473 · Aug 2, 2020

Ironhold said:
Welcome to the wonderful world of American copyright law, where it's easy to get lost in the morass.

yes, it can be confusing!

but an easy rule for books is that anything over a hundred years old is public domain.

Leaf473 · Aug 2, 2020

He is the way said:
and 14 which is on the left hand of the screen from the link:

JST, Exodus 32:14. Compare Exodus 32:14

(another issue might be how the forum software used here at Christian forums deals with links and scripture references after they are posted.)

He is the way · Aug 2, 2020

Leaf473 said:
(another issue might be how the forum software used here at Christian forums deals with links and scripture references after they are posted.)

Hum, that is a possibility I hadn't thought of.

Ironhold · Aug 3, 2020

Leaf473 said:
yes, it can be confusing!

but an easy rule for books is that anything over a hundred years old is public domain.

Not automatically.

If someone successfully introduces an "innovation" they can get a new set of protections on the basis of that innovation. For example, the plain text of the KJV is public domain, but if someone was to tack on a series of photographs showing the Holy Land they could get new protections based on those photographs providing they had the rights to those photographs.

Likewise, even if something winds up in the public domain only certain elements may be covered. For example, the Max Fleischer "Superman" cartoons are public domain because the company who acquired Fleischer Studios' intellectual property failed to keep up with the paperwork, but Superman as a character is still owned by DC Comics.

Leaf473 · Aug 3, 2020

Ironhold said:
Not automatically.

If someone successfully introduces an "innovation" they can get a new set of protections on the basis of that innovation. For example, the plain text of the KJV is public domain, but if someone was to tack on a series of photographs showing the Holy Land they could get new protections based on those photographs providing they had the rights to those photographs.

Likewise, even if something winds up in the public domain only certain elements may be covered. For example, the Max Fleischer "Superman" cartoons are public domain because the company who acquired Fleischer Studios' intellectual property failed to keep up with the paperwork, but Superman as a character is still owned by DC Comics.

that all sounds right.

I was talking about physical books, an easy rule is that a particular physical book over a hundred years old is public domain.

so in the particular case of the two links I posted that go to archive.org, they refer to an 1867 edition of the JST mixed with the KJV, I believe.

so I believe a person could legally take the text out of that book and do whatever.

of course, for any particular instance of the text appearing on a web page, such as the community of Christ one, that webpage as a whole is copyrighted.

I believe this all came up because I was wondering why the Joseph Smith translation wasn't on the official LDS site, but it turns out that it is there.

Ironhold · Aug 3, 2020

Leaf473 said:
that all sounds right.

I was talking about physical books, an easy rule is that a particular physical book over a hundred years old is public domain.

so in the particular case of the two links I posted that go to archive.org, they refer to an 1867 edition of the JST mixed with the KJV, I believe.

so I believe a person could legally take the text out of that book and do whatever.

of course, for any particular instance of the text appearing on a web page, such as the community of Christ one, that webpage as a whole is copyrighted.

I believe this all came up because I was wondering why the Joseph Smith translation wasn't on the official LDS site, but it turns out that it is there.

Yeah; we put it in the footnotes and a separate section in the back so that people can compare the two versions of the text, while IIRC the Community of Christ simply uses it as the standard version.

dzheremi · Aug 3, 2020

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this already, but the entire 'Joseph Smith Papyri', as it is called, has been translated by an actual professional, disinterested (non-LDS/non-BYU) Egyptologist, Dr. Robert K. Ritner. You can buy it on Amazon Kindle right now for $10, if you want to. I have not read it myself, but I do know from other sources that in Dr. Ritner's conclusion is that it does not match in content or form the LDS Book of Abraham. He puts it very kindly here, emphasizing that the book is not what they claim it is, but that this doesn't mean that it's necessarily useless -- only that they make ahistorical claims about its authorship and content:

He is the way · Aug 3, 2020

dzheremi said:
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this already, but the entire 'Joseph Smith Papyri', as it is called, has been translated by an actual professional, disinterested (non-LDS/non-BYU) Egyptologist, Dr. Robert K. Ritner. You can buy it on Amazon Kindle right now for $10, if you want to. I have not read it myself, but I do know from other sources that in Dr. Ritner's conclusion is that it does not match in content or form the LDS Book of Abraham. He puts it very kindly here, emphasizing that the book is not what they claim it is, but that this doesn't mean that it's necessarily useless -- only that they make ahistorical claims about its authorship and content:

How can they say "the entire 'Joseph Smith Papyri'" when they don't have all of it and most likely most of what they do have isn't a part of the Book of Abraham?

LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

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