LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[Leaf473]

This scripture helps also:

(Old Testament | Genesis 2:1)

1 THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

yes, Genesis 2:1 gives more information about creation.

I think the issue was that he saw this
Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

and assumed it was a complete sentence.
after all, it starts with a capital letter and ends with a stop sign!

but if you look at it in context with
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

then you can see that verse 4 ends with a comma.
the reason why verse 5 starts with a capital letter is that every verse in the KJV begins with a capital letter.

once a person understands that, the sentence is actually easy to read (if you wade through all the clauses).
better yet, just use a modern English translation.

my impression from the bits and pieces I've read from Mormon sources about the JST is that he started it because he believed the Bible had been significantly corrupted.
I think this is a difficult case to make, especially for the New testament documents.

 

[He is the way]

It sounds to me like you are attempting to interpret the meaning without any qualifications to do so, and without even considering the possibility that you're highly subjective feelings might be wrong.

I mean, look at how the Egyptians depicted people, it's more sophisticated than a stick figure, but basically they are still just very stylized stick figures.

Because to me, it looks more like this:

View attachment 281871



I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

You know, every once in a while I have this weird suspicion that you may not actually be Mormon, but are like here to make Mormonism look bad.

-CryptoLutheran

Anyone who is not blind can see for themselves that the person on the table is not dead. It is not rocket science. Apparently there are those who will not see like the flat earthers. There are people that believe that all 11 fragments of the papyri were used to write the book of Abraham. However, it is well known that some of the papyri was burned. Therefore reading the "correct hieroglyphs" used for the Book of Abraham is not possible.

 

[He is the way]

yes, Genesis 2:1 gives more information about creation.

I think the issue was that he saw this
Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

and assumed it was a complete sentence.
after all, it starts with a capital letter and ends with a stop sign!

but if you look at it in context with
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

then you can see that verse 4 ends with a comma.
the reason why verse 5 starts with a capital letter is that every verse in the KJV begins with a capital letter.

once a person understands that, the sentence is actually easy to read (if you wade through all the clauses).
better yet, just use a modern English translation.

my impression from the bits and pieces I've read from Mormon sources about the JST is that he started it because he believed the Bible had been significantly corrupted.
I think this is a difficult case to make, especially for the New testament documents.

There was no punctuation or capitalization in the original text of the Bible, it was added later. There are conflicting parts of the Bible. For instance does God repent?

 

[Leaf473]

That's because you come from a background that says the bible is infallible.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ put more faith in a current prophet of God and then the Bible, and the BOM, and the D&C, and the POGP.

But the living prophet is the most important. For example: if the living prophet says X and the BOM says Y, we would go with the living prophet and believe X. I would then try to reconcile X and Y, to come to the most perfect belief.

well, it's true that I was raised from childhood believing that the Bible is infallible.

I don't currently believe that, though I do think the Bible is a really good place to learn about God and his ways.

but I don't think I say that
both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible we have today has been significantly altered
because of my beliefs about infallibility.

the Jehovah's Witnesses make this claim, in so many words, and appendices A and C of the New World translation, though few JW's are aware of the implications.

some years ago, I read a quote from Joseph Smith where he said much the same thing about the Bible.

is it incorrect to say that Mormons claim to be fully in line with the Bible?

 

[He is the way]

well, it's true that I was raised from childhood believing that the Bible is infallible.

I don't currently believe that, though I do think the Bible is a really good place to learn about God and his ways.

but I don't think I say that
both Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible we have today has been significantly altered
because of my beliefs about infallibility.

the Jehovah's Witnesses make this claim, in so many words, and appendices A and C of the New World translation, though few JW's are aware of the implications.

some years ago, I read a quote from Joseph Smith where he said much the same thing about the Bible.

is it incorrect to say that Mormons claim to be fully in line with the Bible?

Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints believe in the inspired version of the Bible also known as the JST. It is not all that different but there are corrections. For instance does God repent?

 

[Leaf473]

There was no punctuation or capitalization in the original text of the Bible, it was added later.

that's correct!

I think the gentleman I was talking with was taking the approach of:
since the KJV was the "gold standard" for most Christians for hundreds of years, and since it contains this impossible to understand verse, the JST was necessary.

but it turns out the issue was actually with the way he was reading it.

There are conflicting parts of the Bible. For instance does God repent?

I agree that there are conflicting parts of the Bible.
I think this was true in the original manuscripts, not because the text became corrupted.

some places in the bible say that God repents, some places say he doesn't.
why do you ask?

 

[mmksparbud]

You still have not said why they were trying to kill him.

Why does no Mormon want to answer such a simple question? Couldn't be they know it's all a fake?

 

[Leaf473]

Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints believe in the inspired version of the Bible also known as the JST. It is not all that different but there are corrections. For instance does God repent?

well, without doing extensive research, I did come across this
Genesis 1: 1-3
"And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, I reveal unto you concerning this heaven and this earth; write the words which I speak. I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God. By mine Only Begotten I created these things. Yea, in the beginning I created the heaven and the earth upon which thou standest."
Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible - Wikipedia

well, to me, that looks substantially different.

 

[Leaf473]

Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints believe in the inspired version of the Bible also known as the JST.

I also came across this from what appears to be the official LDS website

"Although not the official Bible of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the JST offers many interesting insights and is an invaluable aid to biblical interpretation and understanding."
Joseph Smith Translation (JST)

is there an official LDS Bible?

 

[He is the way]

that's correct!

I think the gentleman I was talking with was taking the approach of:
since the KJV was the "gold standard" for most Christians for hundreds of years, and since it contains this impossible to understand verse, the JST was necessary.

but it turns out the issue was actually with the way he was reading it.


I agree that there are conflicting parts of the Bible.
I think this was true in the original manuscripts, not because the text became corrupted.

some places in the bible say that God repents, some places say he doesn't.
why do you ask?

It is one of the corrections made in the JST. We don't know whether or not it was correct in the original manuscript because we don't have it. There are differences in some of the manuscripts we do have. There are also a lot of differences in the different versions of the Bible. That being said Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints believe in most aspects of the Bible. We do believe the Father and the Son are one in Glory and perfection as stated by Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

[Leaf473]

It is one of the corrections made in the JST.

which is one of the corrections? Genesis 2:5, or that God does/doesn't repent?

We don't know whether or not it was correct in the original manuscript because we don't have it.

do Mormons believe that the documents that became the Bible may have been wrong when they were originally written?

There are differences in some of the manuscripts we do have.

true!
as I understand it, the vast majority of scholars have a high degree of confidence that in the vast majority of cases, the original can be reconstructed.
this is especially true with the New testament.

There are also a lot of differences in the different versions of the Bible.

do you mean different ancient manuscripts?
or different English translations?

 

[He is the way]

which is one of the corrections? Genesis 2:5, or that God does/doesn't repent?

God does not repent

do Mormons believe that the documents that became the Bible may have been wrong when they were originally written?

Not that I am aware of.

true!
as I understand it, the vast majority of scholars have a high degree of confidence that in the vast majority of cases, the original can be reconstructed.
this is especially true with the New testament.

However there are still mistakes.

do you mean different ancient manuscripts?
or different English translations?

Modern versions of the Bible.

 

[Dale]

You say Joseph Smith was a slow translator yet he translated the Book of Mormon in just 65 working days while in his 20's. After the Book of Mormon was published in 1830 Joseph Smith had a lot of responsibility given to him. His time was divided in many directions. Previously from June of 1830 to July of 1833 he had gone through the Old and New Testaments producing nearly 500 pages of manuscript, containing thousands of variant readings and new passages that clarify and enhance the message of the Bible known today as the Joseph Smith translation or the JST. Joseph Smith was no slouch, but was willing to do whatever God asked him to do.

It sounds like Joseph Smith rewrote the Bible to suit himself.
Do you have a source for this claim that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham in a trifle over two months? The sources I've seen say that it took seven years and during that time some of the men helping him either left the church or were disciplined.

 

[Dale]

You say Joseph Smith was a slow translator yet he translated the Book of Mormon in just 65 working days while in his 20's. After the Book of Mormon was published in 1830 Joseph Smith had a lot of responsibility given to him. His time was divided in many directions. Previously from June of 1830 to July of 1833 he had gone through the Old and New Testaments producing nearly 500 pages of manuscript, containing thousands of variant readings and new passages that clarify and enhance the message of the Bible known today as the Joseph Smith translation or the JST. Joseph Smith was no slouch, but was willing to do whatever God asked him to do.

You say that Joseph Smith translated the B of A in only 65 working days.

This can't be true because some of his manuscripts of it date to 1838 in Kirkland, Ohio.
The final version wasn't released until 1842 in Nauvoo.

 

[He is the way]

It sounds like Joseph Smith rewrote the Bible to suit himself.
Do you have a source for this claim that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham in a trifle over two months? The sources I've seen say that it took seven years and during that time some of the men helping him either left the church or were disciplined.

I said he translated the Book of Mormon in 65 working days. That does not seem slow to me. He was a fast translator. The Book of Mormon is much larger than the Book of Abraham.

 

[Leaf473]

God does not repent

the first instance I found of God repenting is
Exodus 32:14 the Lord repented of the evil which he said he would do to his people.

do you believe this was incorrect when Moses (or whoever) first wrote it down?
or is it incorrect because of copying errors?

what does the JST say in this passage?
is there an easy-to-use online version of the JST?

Not that I am aware of.

then it sounds like things needing correction are just due to copying errors.

However there are still mistakes.

true!
minor mistakes, as I understand it.
nothing compared to the significant changes that I've seen in the small amount of the JST that I've read.

for example, the first three verses of the book of Genesis we looked at earlier.
they are significantly different from the Hebrew that we have.
does copyist error really account for the difference?

you're probably familiar with the lxx, the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures around 200 BC.
in that passage, it's pretty much word for word the same as the Hebrew.
yet none of the apostles in the New testament say anything about the Hebrew scriptures containing significant copying errors.

because of things like this, it's hard for me to believe that the Hebrew was copied that badly.

Modern versions of the Bible.

yes, there are differences among translations.
usually it has to do with the difficulty of translating from one language to another.
myself, if I have a question I just go to the Bible hub interlinear
Genesis 1:1 Interlinear: In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

**************
someone earlier on this thread basically said that Mormons follow the current prophet.
if that's the case, does any of this really matter?
a person can read the Bible or the book of Mormon for devotional purposes, but for anything doctrinal, it's a matter of what the prophet says?

 

[He is the way]

the first instance I found of God repenting is
Exodus 32:14 the Lord repented of the evil which he said he would do to his people.

do you believe this was incorrect when Moses (or whoever) first wrote it down?
or is it incorrect because of copying errors?

what does the JST say in this passage?
is there an easy-to-use online version of the JST?

then it sounds like things needing correction are just due to copying errors.


true!
minor mistakes, as I understand it.
nothing compared to the significant changes that I've seen in the small amount of the JST that I've read.

for example, the first three verses of the book of Genesis we looked at earlier.
they are significantly different from the Hebrew that we have.
does copyist error really account for the difference?

you're probably familiar with the lxx, the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures around 200 BC.
in that passage, it's pretty much word for word the same as the Hebrew.
yet none of the apostles in the New testament say anything about the Hebrew scriptures containing significant copying errors.

because of things like this, it's hard for me to believe that the Hebrew was copied that badly.


yes, there are differences among translations.
usually it has to do with the difficulty of translating from one language to another.
myself, if I have a question I just go to the Bible hub interlinear
Genesis 1:1 Interlinear: In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

**************
someone earlier on this thread basically said that Mormons follow the current prophet.
if that's the case, does any of this really matter?
a person can read the Bible or the book of Mormon for devotional purposes, but for anything doctrinal, it's a matter of what the prophet says?

You said: "do you believe this was incorrect when Moses (or whoever) first wrote it down?
or is it incorrect because of copying errors?

I think it is due to three things, copying errors, translation errors, and omission errors.

You said: "if I have a question I just go to the Bible hub interlinear"

I too use Bible Hub, however it also used all of the different translations along with the interlinear. Where words are used sparsely in the scriptures it is harder to define them by context.

There are other conflicts in the Bible:

(Old Testament | Genesis 32:30)

30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

(Old Testament | Exodus 33:11)

11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:4)

4 The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 34:10)

10 ¶ And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

(New Testament | Matthew 11:27)

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

(New Testament | John 1:18)

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[Dale]

About half of the Book of Abraham is a retelling of the creation story. It is obviously drawn from Genesis Chapters 1 & 2, specifically from the King James version. Joseph Smith's retelling seems to have no purpose except to change "God" to "Gods," that is to claim that creation was carried out by multiple, but unnamed, "Gods." The only other purpose seems to be to change "created" or "made" to "organized" or "formed." This reflects Joseph Smith's belief that God (and His peers) don't exactly create matter, they just organize it, or decide what to do with it.




CHAPTER 4
The Gods plan the creation of the
earth and all life thereon—Their plans
for the six days of creation are set forth.

And then the Lord said: Let us go
down And they went down at the
beginning, and they, that is the Gods,
organized and formed the heavens
and the earth.

BA 4: 1



2 And the earth, after it was formed,
was empty and desolate, because they
had not formed anything but the
earth; and darkness reigned upon
the face of the deep, and the Spirit
of the Gods was brooding upon the
face of the waters
3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there
be light; and there was light
4 And they (the Gods)
comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or
caused it to be divided, from the
darkness.
5 And the Gods called the light Day,
and the darkness they called Night
And it came to pass that from the
evening until morning they called
night; and from the morning un
til the evening they called day;
and this was the first, or the
beginning, of that which they called day and night.
6 And the Gods also said: Let there
be an expanse in the midst of the
waters, and it shall divide the waters
from the waters.

BA 4:2-6

 

[Rescued One]

....my impression from the bits and pieces I've read from Mormon sources about the JST is that he started it because he believed the Bible had been significantly corrupted.
I think this is a difficult case to make, especially for the New testament documents.

1 Nephi 13:29
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away [the Bible]it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

 

[Rescued One]

the first instance I found of God repenting is
Exodus 32:14 the Lord repented of the evil which he said he would do to his people.

do you believe this was incorrect when Moses (or whoever) first wrote it down?
or is it incorrect because of copying errors?

what does the JST say in this passage?
is there an easy-to-use online version of the JST?

then it sounds like things needing correction are just due to copying errors....

Exodus 32:14, Inspired Version (aka JST)
Exod 32:14 And the Lord said unto Moses, If they will repent of the evil which they have done, I will spare them and turn away my fierce wrath; but behold, thou shalt execute judgment upon all that will not repent of this evil this day. Therefore, see thou do this thing that I have commanded thee, or I will execute all that which I had thought to do unto my people.

Handy link:
Exodus